IlsonDerby Posted March 4, 2018 Author Share Posted March 4, 2018 2 hours ago, Mistaram said: So it was OK for Martin to score all the goals but not Vydra Bet Spurs hate Harry Kane scoring all those goals We had Bryson and Russell contributing during that time. Spurs have Alli, Son and Lamela all chipping in. Next ridiculous non example?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted March 4, 2018 Author Share Posted March 4, 2018 2 hours ago, Doodle said: Stupid is, as stupid does Yeah you could use intellect to persuade me that I’m wrong or you could post some childish comment that adds nothing to the debate. How valuable of you. Hope the 1/2 likes you got from this comment made your mundane existence slightly more lively this evening! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted March 4, 2018 Author Share Posted March 4, 2018 3 hours ago, David said: Vydra isn't the reason the goals are not being shared out, that is down to other players not being as clinical with their finishing which is no fault of his. Take Weimann for example yesterday, holds his run better and its 1-0 Derby. Vydra played a part right at the start of that move bringing the ball down the left laying it off to Weimann. Was great build up play which involved all 4 of the forwards. Nugent should have had Leeds the other week buried by half time. We are creating chances and whilst we have struggled in some games, our recent dip in form in front of goal has been largely down to poor finishing. Also we have seen Vydra play out wide, he's no a winger, the change in formation and given the central role has allowed him to shine and become that player which may attract bids in the summer. Change in formation to a previous managers system and pushing our top goalscorer out wide makes little sense to me. Fair points, for me though we as a team are not creating enough chances. You expect to miss chances during a game. We went through a very fortunate patch where we scored with almost every clear cut chance we had. That’s not the norm. We’ve simply not been creating enough in terms of chances but our quality/clinical finishing masked this. I don’t think Vydra should be played out wide but then I think we should have a more creative force in the number ten role or we should only be playing with 1 holding midfielder and Vydra should play with another ball carrying midfielder further up (Palmer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyPowell Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 2 hours ago, Duracell said: Glad someone else is saying it, been saying all season that Vydra is way too scorey. Rowett should play him in the 2 shirt that should stop the little bugger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 22 hours ago, IlsonDerby said: He’s skilful and determined when running at players and he clearly knows where the back of the net is but for me a number 10’s key role is to be picking it up between the lines and creating. I don’t think Vydra has the speed of thought for the role he’s being asked to play and I think the number of goals he’s scored this season has masked this. I would look at moving him on in the summer when his stock is high after a goal heavy season. I would look at bringing in Palmer for the 10 role and spending the money on a new striker and a new winger (if we were to continue with 4231 6 defensive players bore fest). Until the end of the season I would play a 433 as I believe we have decent personnel for it. Carson Wisdom Keogh Davies Forsyth ..................Ledley or Thorne ...........Palmer and Huddlestone Vydra...................................Lawrence ................Jerome I just can’t for the life of me see things improving in terms of creativity with such a static midfield. (For those suggesting we’ve scored lots of goals, our expected goals stat, which I know isn’t the be all, has been consistently low meaning we’ve been clinical not creative. We’ve scored more than expected based on the chances created) Words fail me....keep ya best players me thinks and get rid of those not performing is the best way forward.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derbylad92 Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Jerome just doesnt do it for me and Nugent just looks really leggy at the minute maybe we need to try something different and not have that target man there and try Lawrence weimann vydra and Palmer it worth a try because there' nothing to lose at the minute or even try and go going 352 Carson Wisdom. Keogh Davies Baird/ledley Huddlestone weimann Lawrence vydra Palmer Jerome/Nugent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Jimbo Ram said: Words fail me....keep ya best players me thinks and get rid of those not performing is the best way forward.... Couldn't you have told Rowett that last season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 100% agree with everything IlsonDerby has said in here, and I've been saying the same all season. The problem isn't that Vydra is scoring too many, it's that he's not doing the job that's required of him in the position he's playing. The guy playing in the hole in a 4231 should be the main creative player, the link between the midfield and the other forwards, and if he's scoring goals too, then that's a bonus. Vydra does nothing but score goals, so the forwards are getting no service and the midfield are getting overrun. The system and personnel we're playing basically collapses into a 424, with 2 very deep midfielders, and 4 out and out forwards, And that will never really work in the long term. If we want to keep Vydra in the team, we need to play more like a proper 442, with a target man for Vydra to play off, a box-to-box midfielder to support the forwards, and at least one winger tucking in a bit to stop us getting overrun in midfield. Unfortunately, we have no players that are capable of playing any of those roles at the moment. And before anybody comes out with the old "it's worked so far this season", it worked while we were conceding from opposition chances at a freakishly low rate, and scoring from our own chances at a freakishly high rate. As soon as conversion rates have started to approach something like normal, results have nosedived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimmu Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 I see where OP is coming from, but can't fully agree. IMO The reason why Vydra has scored most of the goals is the way we've been set up to attack. Striker running to channels, making room for the second striker, Weimann keeping with width and running behind to make room for a second striker, Lawrence should be scoring as he cuts in, but he forgot his shooting boots to Ipswich. All he can offer is support for Vydra giving another option opposition need to mark... If we are not losing, that's it. That's our attack, not that creative or able to mix up even bit. And that's tactical choice how Rowett has set us attack. You can't really do much else with the players we have... but these players are Rowett's choice too. The fact that Lawrence looked our most threatening player against ManU and lately Palmer has shown that's it's more about the position than the player. With current style, the second striker will get best chances and luckily Vydra has been able to take as many as he has. Otherwise, this season could've been a catastrophe. I so wish we could see some more men attacking and therefore, giving more options upfront. Get that left-back filling the flank Lawrence has cleared and Palmer to replace now injured Thorne to get some support from midfield. Would make hell of a difference. Should've started this with I have a dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Ram Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said: Couldn't you have told Rowett that last season? I did Roy Mac, bitterly disappointed that we sold Ince and Hughes.....and still to replace them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroyDyer Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 I think it's harsh to say Vydra doesn't have the quickness of mind. Of all our players, he's the one that makes the better runs and gets frustrated when players aren't on his wave length, and don't get the ball back to him. I would suggest it's actually the other way round. I think his quickness of mind (much like Ince's was) is too quick for the others. If there is one player that deserves calling out for not being particularly bright in terms of a footballing mind, it's Lawrence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, TroyDyer said: I think it's harsh to say Vydra doesn't have the quickness of mind. Of all our players, he's the one that makes the better runs and gets frustrated when players aren't on his wave length, and don't get the ball back to him. I would suggest it's actually the other way round. I think his quickness of mind (much like Ince's was) is too quick for the others. If there is one player that deserves calling out for not being particularly bright in terms of a footballing mind, it's Lawrence. But he's not supposed to be the one making those runs - with the way a 4231 normally works, he should be the playing passes through for the other 3 to run onto. You could tweak the structure a bit if you wanted (play a creative player as a wider one, or play a target man go direct to him to layoff, for example), but you can't have the case where all 4 of the forwards are trying to make runs, and none of them are trying to thread passes through, which is what we've been doing all season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroyDyer Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 1 hour ago, duncanjwitham said: But he's not supposed to be the one making those runs - with the way a 4231 normally works, he should be the playing passes through for the other 3 to run onto. You could tweak the structure a bit if you wanted (play a creative player as a wider one, or play a target man go direct to him to layoff, for example), but you can't have the case where all 4 of the forwards are trying to make runs, and none of them are trying to thread passes through, which is what we've been doing all season. Surely having one of our fastest players not making runs, is just mental? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, TroyDyer said: Surely having one of our fastest players not making runs, is just mental? Exactly - he's being used completely wrongly. Normally, when you use a player in the wrong position, it's that player himself that suffers. But in this case, it's everyone around him. The player in the middle of the 3 in a 4231 should normally be the creative one - dropping a bit deeper, picking the ball up, getting his head up and playing through balls for the other 3 forwards. If he can make runs sometimes, and score goals as well, then great, but it shouldn't be his main job. So Thorne and Huddlestone are picking the ball up, and the guy that should be in space, looking to receive the ball into feet, has turned and started running away from them. Which would be okay if one of the other guys in the 3 was doing that instead, but they're all turned and making runs as well. And it would be okay if the forward was looking for a direct ball he could control or layoff, but he's running away as well. So the midfield are having to play inch-perfect balls for the front 4 to run onto, or we lose the ball. And it turns into schoolyard football - everyone runs one way and then everyone runs the other way - there's no control and no structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroyDyer Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 6 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said: Exactly - he's being used completely wrongly. Normally, when you use a player in the wrong position, it's that player himself that suffers. But in this case, it's everyone around him. The player in the middle of the 3 in a 4231 should normally be the creative one - dropping a bit deeper, picking the ball up, getting his head up and playing through balls for the other 3 forwards. If he can make runs sometimes, and score goals as well, then great, but it shouldn't be his main job. So Thorne and Huddlestone are picking the ball up, and the guy that should be in space, looking to receive the ball into feet, has turned and started running away from them. Which would be okay if one of the other guys in the 3 was doing that instead, but they're all turned and making runs as well. And it would be okay if the forward was looking for a direct ball he could control or layoff, but he's running away as well. So the midfield are having to play inch-perfect balls for the front 4 to run onto, or we lose the ball. And it turns into schoolyard football - everyone runs one way and then everyone runs the other way - there's no control and no structure. It's huddlestone that seems to be playing all the through balls. Unfortunately they're mostly long telegraphed balls over the top. It's hoof ball but with fancy boots on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, TroyDyer said: It's huddlestone that seems to be playing all the through balls. Unfortunately they're mostly long telegraphed balls over the top. It's hoof ball but with fancy boots on. Again, exactly the problem. Huddlestone is having to play throughballs from 20 yards deeper, meaning they have to be that much more accurate to work. There's no one in the front 4 capable of putting their foot on the ball, having a look and playing a pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, TroyDyer said: It's huddlestone that seems to be playing all the through balls. Unfortunately they're mostly long telegraphed balls over the top. It's hoof ball but with fancy boots on. Oooh,don't go saying that... And definitely don't call it rowettball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroyDyer Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 44 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said: The player in the middle of the 3 in a 4231 should normally be the creative one - dropping a bit deeper, picking the ball up, getting his head up and playing through balls for the other 3 forwards. If he can make runs sometimes, and score goals as well, then great, but it shouldn't be his main job. Am I just being obsessive or what, but to me that sounds like you're describing Chris Martin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smyth_18 Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 Matej Vydra will always struggle to be a number 10 as long as he is number 23. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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