Steve McClaren on Management, Comebacks and err...Israel (The Times)

[Bob Gnarly]

9 minutes ago, curtains said:

How did you come to your conclusion 

stop taking the piss

[Curtains]

8 minutes ago, Mr Giggles said:

stop taking the piss

Ok 

[archied]

Again ? The total refusal to give credit to mac1 and the total refusal to give credit to Rowett for the job he is currently doing, zzzzzzzzzzzz

im going to make an observation here that will get ripped to shreds but here goes ,,,,, I’ve made a point of watching back lots of highlights and I never miss a live game now either rtv or at venue and rowett has us closer to the Mac 1 football than any in between and by that I mean the sheer pace and intent we attack with and the movement of the front 4 , we score some bloody good goals and a fair few of them too ,,, clement came in and destroyed that by having us keep the ball moving it sideways at a snails pace and by Christ did we struggle to shake that habit off ,,,,

you boys do what you like but me I’m gonna give credit where it’s due to both mac1 and the emerging rowettball cause they both earn it

[cannable]

14 minutes ago, archied said:

Again ? The total refusal to give credit to mac1 and the total refusal to give credit to Rowett for the job he is currently doing, zzzzzzzzzzzz

im going to make an observation here that will get ripped to shreds but here goes ,,,,, I’ve made a point of watching back lots of highlights and I never miss a live game now either rtv or at venue and rowett has us closer to the Mac 1 football than any in between and by that I mean the sheer pace and intent we attack with and the movement of the front 4 , we score some bloody good goals and a fair few of them too ,,, clement came in and destroyed that by having us keep the ball moving it sideways at a snails pace and by Christ did we struggle to shake that habit off ,,,,

you boys do what you like but me I’m gonna give credit where it’s due to both mac1 and the emerging rowettball cause they both earn it

I’d argue Rowetball’s Wassallball in a slightly different shape, with the attackers given freedom and flexibility with regards to getting the ball forward

[Curtains]

15 minutes ago, archied said:

Again ? The total refusal to give credit to mac1 and the total refusal to give credit to Rowett for the job he is currently doing, zzzzzzzzzzzz

im going to make an observation here that will get ripped to shreds but here goes ,,,,, I’ve made a point of watching back lots of highlights and I never miss a live game now either rtv or at venue and rowett has us closer to the Mac 1 football than any in between and by that I mean the sheer pace and intent we attack with and the movement of the front 4 , we score some bloody good goals and a fair few of them too ,,, clement came in and destroyed that by having us keep the ball moving it sideways at a snails pace and by Christ did we struggle to shake that habit off ,,,,

you boys do what you like but me I’m gonna give credit where it’s due to both mac1 and the emerging rowettball cause they both earn it

What about Clough who built Mac 1s team 

[archied]

37 minutes ago, curtains said:

What about Clough who built Mac 1s team 

Always been clear that I have a lot of respect for clough 

[Bris Vegas]

40 minutes ago, curtains said:

What about Clough who built Mac 1s team 

Going by your comments on McClaren you'd think he'd done a similar job to Paul Jewell.

The criticism of him is baffling. 

[Sith Happens]

I would be interested what @curtains classes as a failure? Is it the end result of a managers reign? Do we ignore all the positive stuff that may have happened between the start and finish of the time he was with us?

 

[Dimmu]

23 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

I would be interested what @curtains classes as a failure? Is it the end result of a managers reign? Do we ignore all the positive stuff that may have happened between the start and finish of the time he was with us?

 

 

Not getting a response to his trolling over here would be a failure...

He's been a huge success so far.

[Alph]

So rating Mac doesn't have to mean you hate Rowett? 

That's going to confuse a few

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Paul71 said:

I would be interested what @curtains classes as a failure? Is it the end result of a managers reign? Do we ignore all the positive stuff that may have happened between the start and finish of the time he was with us?

 

I already told you Paul!!

Success is having no success in the Premier League!! 

God, you're so frustrating. This is Derby County. Anything lower than the top flight is failure. 

Winning games is for losers. Success is winning a third of your games and getting a -10 GD in the PL. There's no joy to be had anywhere else. 

[TommyPowell]

22 hours ago, sunnyhill60 said:

Your grasp of facts seems limited. He didn't shoot off, he committed his future to the Rams and was rewarded with the sack. 

What about the Owner's loyalty after he came back to rescue the situation after Pearson's disastrous appointment?

he committed his future with us before he went to Newcastle?

 

 

[EssendonRam]

6 minutes ago, TommyPowel said:

he committed his future with us before he went to Newcastle?

 

 

That's the dumbest of a whole series of dumb emotional comments in this thread that exemplifies how McClaren gets criticised for things that otherwise sensible people would never criticise anyone else for.

The bloke had been sacked by us. He was unemployed. Newcastle offered him a job. Re-offered him the job if you insist.

What would you have expected him to do? Knock it back? Prioritise the feelings of bitter and twisted Derby fans - the same people who were cheering Mel Morris's attempt to withhold (ie steal) his severance entitlements over his livelihood? (I've accepted most of Mel's actions towards managers as well-intentioned, if misguided; I still regard that as the most disgraceful, indefensible action among some fairly ordinary actions Morris has committed in Derby's name.)

[EssendonRam]

6 hours ago, Alpha said:

I already told you Paul!!

Success is having no success in the Premier League!! 

God, you're so frustrating. This is Derby County. Anything lower than the top flight is failure. 

Winning games is for losers. Success is winning a third of your games and getting a -10 GD in the PL. There's no joy to be had anywhere else. 

Crying react because you;re right and...if that's our definition of success, what do you call winning one-thirtyeigth  of your matches and a GD that should only be said aloud as a (gypsy) curse?

[EssendonRam]

13 hours ago, curtains said:

He should have stayed it was a once in a lifetime thing for DCFC.  

 

Twice in a lifetime.

And, for whatever reason, we as a club stuffed it up both times.

While it is fair to say the individual managers may have some responsibility for the situation (especially the first time), the fact is that we, as a club (and we, as fans of a club), suffer badly from some sort of a messiah complex.

It's understandable given our history.

We had the messiah. He kept telling us he was the messiah and then he showed us that he was the messiah. But the messiah was also a very naughty boy and, since we prefer our messiahs to be perfect at Derby, we let our messiah slip through our fingers.

We've been trying to replace him ever since. All we ask for is:

(1) a new messiah

(2) a fresh 'go' with the new messiah so we can do better this time; and

(3) the messiah must love us as much as we love him because the last messiah loved someone else at least as much as he loved us.

 

Think. About. It.

The need to replace our lost messiah is at the heart of what has haunted this club for decades. I loved Jim Smith for instance. He took us to the Premiership and had us competing in the Top 10. Only to fall away and struggle as all smaller and medium-sized clubs must inevitably do in the Premiership.

And what did we do? At the first sign of trouble, we sacked him.

You could argue that we've never recovered from sacking Jim Smith. We've certainly never adequately replaced him. And, as someone noted above, Jim Smith engaged in succession planning. It was almost as if TBE knew that he was not the messiah, just a bloody good manager who needed to be replaced by another bloody good manager....

Fast forward to the era of the Americans. One of the things I most admired about the way the Americans ran Derby was their focus on improving every aspect of the club. To be fair, they somewhat hid behind the name of the messiah for five and a half years while methodically rebuilding the business operation of the whole club. They bought time by hiring the son of the messiah. They set limited on-field ambitions and the son met them.

Patience ran out. When the new Derby County business model was ready to launch, the on-field performance seemed to lag for half a season.

Rightly or wrongly, it was seen as time to upgrade the manager.

And upgrade we did. To a Head Coach whose job was to lead a coaching staff to optimise on-field performance. I'm deliberately lapsing into business jargon to emphasise the rationale: the model was the antithesis of the messiah complex.

The Head Coach was interchangeable, replaceable.

And it worked perfectly. Better than anyone could have hoped.

A middling, mid-table team exploded into a creative, young squad with talent and ambition. We still didn't have the money to compete for players "above our station" yet but our model made us the target club in England to develop their young stars via loans. McClaren's reputation, previously in tatters, soared again.

That young team fell sadly just short at Wembley.

Injuries and, ironically, developing bigger clubs' youngsters too quickly cost us a season later.

Some, like you, prefer to blame McClaren being turned by Newcastle but the facts prove you to be wrong. For our form continued until the end of February when injuries took their toll.

McClaren could've taken the Newcastle job at Christmas. He chose not to.

Whether or not he had decided to depart at season's end is irrelevant. I happen to believe that he was genuinely undecided. You don't. I argue that the facts support me in that McClaren elected to stay and "finish the job" (note the phrase; it comes up again). You argue he was money hungry or whatever as the reason he elected to stay. Whatever. It literally doesn't make sense.

And nobbled him with Newcastle fans who resented the fact that he'd only taken the Toon job after being sacked by a "lesser club".

The reason I say that whether he'd decided to stay or not was irrelevant is this: whatever happened, McClaren discussed it with the then Board and they reached an accommodation. They'd built the messiah-less business model for precisely this reason. If McClaren departed, we'd extract what we required of his obvious skills and find a replacement for the 'cog' that needed replacement.

For all you or I know, the extra six months may've been the Board's request. I suspect not but who knows other than those involved.

Enter Hurricane Mel.

"Unacceptable disloyalty". Disruption, leaking...if you truly believe that our season unraveled because of the McClaren/Newcastle controversy, there is your culprit.

And it was based on what? Certainly not a business model that emphasised the interchangeability of the Head Coaching role.

The new owner's model talked of "Derby's Sir Alex Ferguson" albeit twelve months later.

The effing Messiah complex!!!!!!!!

And McClaren's supposed disloyalty was unacceptable because our Messiah must love us as much as we love him....

Because Brian didn't....except Brian came to realise later that he did...but that's another rant for another thread.

 

@curtains, you and others express outrage on any thread praising McClaren's time(s) at Derby. This thread didn't even start out that way. It was merely an interview of interest but you (and others) continue expressing bitter, often counter-factual, opinions incessantly instead of accepting that others disagree (wholly or in part).

I tend to defend McClaren against such bile and I definitely choose to respect what he achieved at Derby without ultimately getting us to the Premiership. He's joined every other manager we've had since Jim Smith with the sole exception of bloody Billy Davies....(of all people....who made his treachery known on the Wembley pitch and at every opportunity he's had since...and who very nearly destroyed our club in his time here) in failing to get Derby promoted.

Had a not insignificant minority of fans had their way earlier this season, GR would've +1'd him....

You think resisting the bile that people like yourself have for McClaren is living in the past?

Aside from how psychologically revealing that comment is, it shows you don't understand that countering irrational bitterness with the facts - as I would do if similar views were expressed about Nigel Clough, Paul Clement, Nigel Pearson or even Billy Davies - is more about recognising the mistakes the club has made (whether in appointing, sacking or even trusting managers) - is more about the future.

Derby, like many clubs, has enormous potential if it can be harnessed.

I want that for Derby. I've no doubt you do too.

But I want us to learn from our mistakes and I'm hoping Mel's learned from his.

We once did have the closest person there'll ever be to a football Messiah. We let him go. We'll never see his likeness again sadly....and we shouldn't forget that, even that messiah, was not perfect.

We need to recognise that a manager can only do so much. For now, Gary Rowett has the job of getting the most out of our players and he is more than meeting the mark.

Long may he remain....without becoming irreplaceable....

 

[Curtains]

6 hours ago, EssendonRam said:

Twice in a lifetime.

And, for whatever reason, we as a club stuffed it up both times.

While it is fair to say the individual managers may have some responsibility for the situation (especially the first time), the fact is that we, as a club (and we, as fans of a club), suffer badly from some sort of a messiah complex.

It's understandable given our history.

We had the messiah. He kept telling us he was the messiah and then he showed us that he was the messiah. But the messiah was also a very naughty boy and, since we prefer our messiahs to be perfect at Derby, we let our messiah slip through our fingers.

We've been trying to replace him ever since. All we ask for is:

(1) a new messiah

(2) a fresh 'go' with the new messiah so we can do better this time; and

(3) the messiah must love us as much as we love him because the last messiah loved someone else at least as much as he loved us.

 

Think. About. It.

The need to replace our lost messiah is at the heart of what has haunted this club for decades. I loved Jim Smith for instance. He took us to the Premiership and had us competing in the Top 10. Only to fall away and struggle as all smaller and medium-sized clubs must inevitably do in the Premiership.

And what did we do? At the first sign of trouble, we sacked him.

You could argue that we've never recovered from sacking Jim Smith. We've certainly never adequately replaced him. And, as someone noted above, Jim Smith engaged in succession planning. It was almost as if TBE knew that he was not the messiah, just a bloody good manager who needed to be replaced by another bloody good manager....

Fast forward to the era of the Americans. One of the things I most admired about the way the Americans ran Derby was their focus on improving every aspect of the club. To be fair, they somewhat hid behind the name of the messiah for five and a half years while methodically rebuilding the business operation of the whole club. They bought time by hiring the son of the messiah. They set limited on-field ambitions and the son met them.

Patience ran out. When the new Derby County business model was ready to launch, the on-field performance seemed to lag for half a season.

Rightly or wrongly, it was seen as time to upgrade the manager.

And upgrade we did. To a Head Coach whose job was to lead a coaching staff to optimise on-field performance. I'm deliberately lapsing into business jargon to emphasise the rationale: the model was the antithesis of the messiah complex.

The Head Coach was interchangeable, replaceable.

And it worked perfectly. Better than anyone could have hoped.

A middling, mid-table team exploded into a creative, young squad with talent and ambition. We still didn't have the money to compete for players "above our station" yet but our model made us the target club in England to develop their young stars via loans. McClaren's reputation, previously in tatters, soared again.

That young team fell sadly just short at Wembley.

Injuries and, ironically, developing bigger clubs' youngsters too quickly cost us a season later.

Some, like you, prefer to blame McClaren being turned by Newcastle but the facts prove you to be wrong. For our form continued until the end of February when injuries took their toll.

McClaren could've taken the Newcastle job at Christmas. He chose not to.

Whether or not he had decided to depart at season's end is irrelevant. I happen to believe that he was genuinely undecided. You don't. I argue that the facts support me in that McClaren elected to stay and "finish the job" (note the phrase; it comes up again). You argue he was money hungry or whatever as the reason he elected to stay. Whatever. It literally doesn't make sense.

And nobbled him with Newcastle fans who resented the fact that he'd only taken the Toon job after being sacked by a "lesser club".

The reason I say that whether he'd decided to stay or not was irrelevant is this: whatever happened, McClaren discussed it with the then Board and they reached an accommodation. They'd built the messiah-less business model for precisely this reason. If McClaren departed, we'd extract what we required of his obvious skills and find a replacement for the 'cog' that needed replacement.

For all you or I know, the extra six months may've been the Board's request. I suspect not but who knows other than those involved.

Enter Hurricane Mel.

"Unacceptable disloyalty". Disruption, leaking...if you truly believe that our season unraveled because of the McClaren/Newcastle controversy, there is your culprit.

And it was based on what? Certainly not a business model that emphasised the interchangeability of the Head Coaching role.

The new owner's model talked of "Derby's Sir Alex Ferguson" albeit twelve months later.

The effing Messiah complex!!!!!!!!

And McClaren's supposed disloyalty was unacceptable because our Messiah must love us as much as we love him....

Because Brian didn't....except Brian came to realise later that he did...but that's another rant for another thread.

 

@curtains, you and others express outrage on any thread praising McClaren's time(s) at Derby. This thread didn't even start out that way. It was merely an interview of interest but you (and others) continue expressing bitter, often counter-factual, opinions incessantly instead of accepting that others disagree (wholly or in part).

I tend to defend McClaren against such bile and I definitely choose to respect what he achieved at Derby without ultimately getting us to the Premiership. He's joined every other manager we've had since Jim Smith with the sole exception of bloody Billy Davies....(of all people....who made his treachery known on the Wembley pitch and at every opportunity he's had since...and who very nearly destroyed our club in his time here) in failing to get Derby promoted.

Had a not insignificant minority of fans had their way earlier this season, GR would've +1'd him....

You think resisting the bile that people like yourself have for McClaren is living in the past?

Aside from how psychologically revealing that comment is, it shows you don't understand that countering irrational bitterness with the facts - as I would do if similar views were expressed about Nigel Clough, Paul Clement, Nigel Pearson or even Billy Davies - is more about recognising the mistakes the club has made (whether in appointing, sacking or even trusting managers) - is more about the future.

Derby, like many clubs, has enormous potential if it can be harnessed.

I want that for Derby. I've no doubt you do too.

But I want us to learn from our mistakes and I'm hoping Mel's learned from his.

We once did have the closest person there'll ever be to a football Messiah. We let him go. We'll never see his likeness again sadly....and we shouldn't forget that, even that messiah, was not perfect.

We need to recognise that a manager can only do so much. For now, Gary Rowett has the job of getting the most out of our players and he is more than meeting the mark.

Long may he remain....without becoming irreplaceable....

 

All very nice but the problem is you were quoting a post of mine in which I was referring to McClaren leaving us for Man United when he could have stayed and seen the job out at Derby with Jim Smith and then possibly moved up to the Managers role in the Premier League when Jim left. 

He chose to work for the bigger club right or wrong  .

 

You have your views I have mine but there is no sentiment in Football  .

Tim Ward was a hero manager of mine and he signed Kevin Hector and for that I am eternally grateful

I love Football and I love Derby County .

Does Steve McClaren love Derby County more than any other club ! 

Maybe maybe not  

Viva Gary Rowett and Mel Morris. 

[Alph]

Would Rowett turn down Man United?

As much as I love Derby I'd not advise turning down Man United. You can always come back but the opportunity to go to one of the 4 or so biggest clubs in the world may only come once. Money, fame, trophies, biggest games and more chance of international roles. 

[Curtains]

8 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Would Rowett turn down Man United?

As much as I love Derby I'd not advise turning down Man United. You can always come back but the opportunity to go to one of the 4 or so biggest clubs in the world may only come once. Money, fame, trophies, biggest games and more chance of international roles. 

He chose to go .

Big decision for a man from York. 

I am from Derby and Gary is from Birmingham so the pull of Man U would be  big for both. 

Sir Alex was the manager and Steve the coach. 

I think Gary would prefer the Managers role at Derby to the coach at Man U so it’s not a perfect analogy .

If it was me which it never will be because I’m nowhere at the same level lol as Steve and Gary or anybody in Football I would have stayed at DERBY COUNTY. 

[Jack Willow]

9 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Would Rowett turn down Man United?

Yeah, who would turn down the offer to go to "the Theater of Dreams".  lolz  

[MuespachRam]

On 1/24/2018 at 21:08, TommyPowel said:

and would you trust SM not to shoot off as soon as he had a whiff of a job with a perceived better team because wouldnt hes not got an ounce of loyaslty in him

 

But he didn’t....he was sacked.