Andicis Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, Lambchop said: A rather telling remark. White cishet middle class males don’t see the need for anti discrimination measures shocker. Sinister insinuations here, hope you're joking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 10 minutes ago, StringerBell said: You have shown a complete lack of empathy towards people who have lost their jobs based on their race because you don’t have a problem with members of that particular race being discriminated against. I suspect you’re not talking about race, you’re talking about class. We’ll make a Marxist of you yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 45 minutes ago, Highgate said: The Rooney Rule, or something similar seems like a harmless nudge to me. It could well have beneficial results in helping qualified people from ethnic minorities get the coaching and managerial positions their talents warrant. All but the most ardent racist would surely agree that it's at least plausible that an undercurrent of racism may still exist within the FA or similar institutions. So why not give this minor alteration a go and lets see if it can do some good? If there are racists in these organisations they should be named and shamed. Introducing rules with positive discrimination is equally bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scarlet Pimpernel Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 In 2011 the UK mix was: White: 87.1% Gypsy: 0.1% Asian: 6.9% Black: 3.0% Mixed: 2.0% Other: 0.9% How shall we represent every group at interview? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, Lambchop said: A rather telling remark. White cishet middle class males don’t see the need for anti discrimination measures shocker. I’m glad you’re here to tell us straight, cis, white males how wrong it is to discriminate based on race, sexuality, and gender. Progressivism ladies and gentlemen! Take a bow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, Lambchop said: I suspect you’re not talking about race, you’re talking about class. We’ll make a Marxist of you yet. No I’m talking about the BBC guys. And maybe soon we can add James Damore to that list, I haven’t got round to reading the reasons he’s suing google yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 16 minutes ago, StivePesley said: No - alo an 18 month trial in the EFL Doh! - so much for my New Year's resolution to read things properly before commenting..... I do wonder how it will work in practice - if you're a multi-millionaire owner and you work out a short-list of candidates to manage your club (based on thorough research and due diligence, taking into account their personality, previous experience, in-game contacts, etc) and yet, due to the Rooney rule, you have to add on another candidate that meets the correct racial profile, how many owners are really likely to then choose the 'token' candidate? - and after the 18 month trial when a large number of BAME candidates have gone through the interview process and yet not been selected, how loud will the cries of racism then become. I still think this is approaching the problem from the wrong direction.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaspode Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 10 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said: In 2011 the UK mix was: White: 87.1% Gypsy: 0.1% Asian: 6.9% Black: 3.0% Mixed: 2.0% Other: 0.9% How shall we represent every group at interview? The 'Who Do You Think You Are?' team are going to be busy tracing back everyone's roots to see if they can find someone with the right mix to make everyone happy: "ooh, your granny had a quickie with a gypo - that'll do - you're on the list" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 2 hours ago, StringerBell said: Can anybody answer my question of why there aren’t more black goalkeepers? Lee Grant, Shaka Hislop and the guy that used to play for Rainbow Athletic in the late 80s/early 90s. Disappointing that neither of the latter two have gone on to be goalkeeping coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, Gaspode said: The 'Who Do You Think You Are?' team are going to be busy tracing back everyone's roots to see if they can find someone with the right mix to make everyone happy: "ooh, your granny had a quickie with a gypo - that'll do - you're on the list" Isn't that how the Republic of Ireland used to pick their players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Lee Grant, Shaka Hislop and the guy that used to play for Rainbow Athletic in the late 80s/early 90s. Disappointing that neither of the latter two have gone on to be goalkeeping coaches. David James and that French international are the ones that spring to my mind. There’s one in the lower leagues you sometimes see on goal rush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: If there are racists in these organisations they should be named and shamed. Introducing rules with positive discrimination is equally bad. Wouldn't it be wonderful if things were that simple? Also if the racists you speak of could helpfully speak up and identify themselves as such, or wear a swastika armband or something, that should clearly break us into two groups, bad racists and good non racists. Unfortunately racism can be much more subtle than the scenario you seem to envisage. I think as humans we have as a biological predisposition to distrust people we identify as 'different' or 'others'. This default setting can help create racial bias against minorities within institutions even where definitive and premeditated racism is absent. And where genuine racists do exist, they may choose to keep it to themselves (preventing the naming and shaming) and yet you would it expect their racism to influence their decision making when choosing which candidates to interview. I can't see how this rule will prevent white prospective coaches who deserve a job on merit from getting that job. And if it doesn't do that, then where is the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 21 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Lee Grant, Shaka Hislop and the guy that used to play for Rainbow Athletic in the late 80s/early 90s. Disappointing that neither of the latter two have gone on to be goalkeeping coaches. Darren Randolph can't be pleased to be overlooked. Current Middlesbro and Rep of Ireland keeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, Highgate said: Wouldn't it be wonderful if things were that simple? Also if the racists you speak of could helpfully speak up and identify themselves as such, or wear a swastika armband or something, that should clearly break us into two groups, bad racists and good non racists. Unfortunately racism can be much more subtle than the scenario you seem to envisage. I think as humans we have as a biological predisposition to distrust people we identify as 'different' or 'others'. This default setting can help create racial bias against minorities within institutions even where definitive and premeditated racism is absent. And where genuine racists do exist, they may choose to keep it to themselves (preventing the naming and shaming) and yet you would it expect their racism to influence their decision making when choosing which candidates to interview. I can't see how this rule will prevent white prospective coaches who deserve a job on merit from getting that job. And if it doesn't do that, then where is the problem? What has led to the introduction of this rule? Who has been discrimnated against and who was doing the discriminating? For me the problem is that this will only be the first step. What next? Women? Disabled people? Where is their represetation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 59 minutes ago, StringerBell said: You have shown a complete lack of empathy towards people who have lost their jobs based on their race because you don’t have a problem with members of that particular race being discriminated against. You are in no position to pontificate against racism because you have no problem with racism in principle. You are for/against racism depending on whether or not the context aligns with your own progressive political leaning. You are also incapable of nuance and mischaracterise others opinions as the most extreme caricature of their actual position. You’ll see I actually responded to the academic whose study prompted this, but I’m sorry I didn’t respond to your grauniad article in which it is revealed Liam Rosenior’s friend thinks the world is racist and a doorman was once racist to his dad. Great contribution there. The position of white men in the world is more threatened now than it's been for a long, long time. It's still not threatened in the slighest though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: The position of white men in the world is more threatened now than it's been for a long, long time. It's still not threatened in the slighest though. Position? So you’re talking jobs? The people at the BBC who lost their jobs due to being white, their positions weren’t threatened in the slightest? Even though they lost their positions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 minute ago, G STAR RAM said: What has led to the introduction of this rule? The fact that minorities are clearly under-represented in coaching and managerial roles in the FA I suppose, and the suspicion that this may be due to an undercurrent of racial bias within the organization. A plausible if unproven suspicion. Or even, aside from accusations of bias, the possibility that by guaranteeing to interview a BAME candidate it may encourage more people within those communities to view coaching roles as a achievable career path. 11 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Who has been discrimnated against and who was doing the discriminating? How the **** would I know ? 12 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: For me the problem is that this will only be the first step. What next? Women? Disabled people? Where is their represetation? So that's what it boils down to for you....the slippery slope argument? It seems then that you are not opposed to a Rooney Rule at all then, but merely what it might precipitate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 17 minutes ago, Highgate said: The fact that minorities are clearly under-represented in coaching and managerial roles in the FA I suppose, and the suspicion that this may be due to an undercurrent of racial bias within the organization. A plausible if unproven suspicion. Or even, aside from accusations of bias, the possibility that by guaranteeing to interview a BAME candidate it may encourage more people within those communities to view coaching roles as a achievable career path. How the **** would I know ? So that's what it boils down to for you....the slippery slope argument? It seems then that you are not opposed to a Rooney Rule at all then, but merely what it might precipitate. No that isn't all it boils down to. I'm sick of campaigns using football time make an issue of something that in reality doesn't exist. Was there an outcry when Arsenal and West Ham were fielding teams with mainly black players? If not, why not? This is about wanting equal representation isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: No that isn't all it boils down to. I'm sick of campaigns using football time make an issue of something that in reality doesn't exist. Was there an outcry when Arsenal and West Ham were fielding teams with mainly black players? If not, why not? This is about wanting equal representation isn't it? Obviously not! As people, quite rightly, feel that those players were there on merit. Currently something is preventing minorities being adequately represented in coaching roles. I don't know what it is..but i'm not aware of anyone who thinks it's because of a lack of talent. Therefore it's something else. Discrimination is a plausible option, so why not introduce a rule that may counteract it? Just to be clear, the rule change won't result in white candidates losing out to less qualified/talented BAME candidates. That's not what it's designed for. It won't happen. All it's designed to do is to give those, that may otherwise be overlooked because of their race, the chance to interview for a job that their qualifications and talent deserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 10 minutes ago, Highgate said: Obviously not! As people, quite rightly, feel that those players were there on merit. Currently something is preventing minorities being adequately represented in coaching roles. I don't know what it is..but i'm not aware of anyone who thinks it's because of a lack of talent. Therefore it's something else. Discrimination is a plausible option, so why not introduce a rule that may counteract it? Yet some people are refusing to acknowledge, maybe the lack of black coaches is because there is other candidates who earned their spot by merit? You're so sure that something is stopping them, yet you can't comment on what it is, so is probably be discrimination? I don't see Chris Hughton struggling to find his next job, and quite rightly so because he has proven himself to be a good manager. Really, I don't see a reason why these football clubs wouldn't hire a good coach for any of those reasons. I don't think an owner is going to say ''this guy is more likely to get us promoted, but he is black so we won't hire him, and we'll get this guy instead because he's white'' that seems ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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