Top 6

[rynny]

59 minutes ago, GadFly said:

Yeah so address that part as well, rather than just ignoring it and picking on the parts that are less valid. 

Why? Was my post really necessary of a "Wolves - fair enough"?

[AdamRam]

16 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Is that Wolves who had a net transfer spend of circa £20m this summer that you want to compare against Derby who had a net transfer income of £9m this summer?

Personally think it’s irrelevant on the net spends, one could argue that derby were in a much better position going into the transfer window and therefore generating cash from other sales is not a luxury wolves had.  

The point I made was about managers being in their first full season and Rowett is not alone in that department.

[G STAR RAM]

3 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Personally think it’s irrelevant on the net spends, one could argue that derby were in a much better position going into the transfer window and therefore generating cash from other sales is not a luxury wolves had.  

The point I made was about managers being in their first full season and Rowett is not alone in that department.

Ok strip out the sales (even though we know ours have made us significantly worse). Wolves spent circa £10m or double what we did this summer, add to this the additional circa £20m more in the previous season.

Comparing Derby and Wolves is in no way a fair comparison. 

[cheron85]

17 hours ago, AdamRam said:

Why does he need a couple of windows to get it right? There was enough quality at the club before he came to be easily in the top 6 if managed right, he sold (IMO) the best players and 5 of the 11 who stared yesterday was ones that he brought in.

Wolves, Cardiff, Boro, villa all have managers in their  first full season, why does it have to be ours that has to have so many windows before getting it right?

Sometimes managers get it right first time - Sometimes managers need a but more time - Sometimes managers never get it right

We can all come up with examples of managers who fit into each bracket - It happens to be that this season a number of 'new' managers are doing well - Other people's performance has nothing to do with how ,long it might take Rowett to turn things around - He's still saying the team isn't quite there 

Sunderland, Birmingham and Hull all had new managers this season and (two anyway) would have had reasonable expectations of being above where they are - Fulham and Reading both did fairly well last term and are having poor starts - Bristol City, Cardiff and Sheff Utd have come from basically nowhere this season - It's the Championship - It's always a bit mad like this - Remember Blackpool's single season where everything just seemed to click? 

We're looking for long term stability - That doesn't necessarily come over-night 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

6 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

Sometimes managers get it right first time - Sometimes managers need a but more time - Sometimes managers never get it right

We can all come up with examples of managers who fit into each bracket - It happens to be that this season a number of 'new' managers are doing well - Other people's performance has nothing to do with how ,long it might take Rowett to turn things around - He's still saying the team isn't quite there 

Sunderland, Birmingham and Hull all had new managers this season and (two anyway) would have had reasonable expectations of being above where they are - Fulham and Reading both did fairly well last term and are having poor starts - Bristol City, Cardiff and Sheff Utd have come from basically nowhere this season - It's the Championship - It's always a bit mad like this - Remember Blackpool's single season where everything just seemed to click? 

We're looking for long term stability - That doesn't necessarily come over-night 

If we had a young,not been together very long squad like forests,I could buy that...you would expect that it would take time for young players to get to know the system, responsibilities etc.

We haven't got that excuse....we are playing exactly like we did after GR had a few games in last season.

And to be fair,I understood the playing style of Warburton's immature squad within one game......I'm still pondering what ours is now.

 

[rynny]

2 hours ago, AdamRam said:

I think you are missing my original point, based upon results to date Rowett imo is almost meeting the requirements he needs to, I can moan all I want about performances but it’s a result based business.

What I said was that a lack of transfer windows should not be used as an excuse for him failing this season, as others are also in their first full season, personally top 6 in this league with the resources he has for me should be easily achievable.

Boro is an Interesting one, maybe comparing them against the other promoted teams is an indication of how well he is doing, however I must admit I don’t follow them that closely, so once again looking at results he appears to be doing what has been asked of him.

Whilst I don't disagree with your point, I just think using Cardiff and Villa as an example is not fair, both of those had an extra transfer window and longer periods at their club, and also failed to inspire them until this season. If you had given Forest, Preston as examples I would not have disagreed with you.

Boro are an interesting one, I think out of the 3 that came down they were the best equipped and suffered the least upheaval (from an outsiders point of view at least) they kept the majority of the team that went up 2 years ago, whilst Hull have had a lot of changes and Sunderland are about as rotten at their core as we were last time we came down and is in need of big changes.

[GadFly]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Is that Wolves who had a net transfer spend of circa £20m this summer that you want to compare against Derby who had a net transfer income of £9m this summer?

Yep, it's also the same Wolves that were in league 1 when we were in a playoff final. The same Wolves that finished 9 points and 6 league positions below us last season. 

There's more to take in to account than just net transfer spend over one window, surely? 

[cheron85]

2 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

If we had a young,not been together very long squad like forests,I could buy that...you would expect that it would take time for young players to get to know the system, responsibilities etc.

We haven't got that excuse....we are playing exactly like we did after GR had a few games in last season.

And to be fair,I understood the playing style of Warburton's immature squad within one game......I'm still pondering what ours is now.

We've got a patchwork squad - We have players brought in by successive managers across various windows - I think Rowett over the summer had some idea of which players would work, which players might work and which players wouldn't with the way he wants to play - And time will give him a better idea of whether those players he thought 'might' work actually are or not

The great advantage Warburton had was an almost clean slate - They seem to have shifted all their high-earning dross and have a load of hungry youngsters - He's then added a load of players to the system and style he wants to play - And I actually think you've got it the wrong way around - Young players are more adaptable to new systems and new ways of playing - They're usually yet to identify the way they play best and haven't picked up bad habits - It's both good and bad - You can play more systems and be more flexible but at the same time the players won't know their own ability well enough yet and can make woeful mistakes because of it

Personally I think Weimann has a limited time left at the club - I think some young, hungry backup wingers will be a priority - Maybe some extra legs in midfield and someone with a bit of bite in the tackle - And a bit more work on a rotational CB pairing - I didn't see the game on Saturday but "8 mins Keogh off, 9 mins Reading goal, 12 mins Reading goal" screams to me of poor organisation of the defence after losing one of the back 2?

[lrm14]

1 minute ago, GadFly said:

Yep, it's also the same Wolves that were in league 1 when we were in a playoff final. The same Wolves that finished 9 points and 6 league positions below us last season. 

There's more to take in to account than just net transfer spend over one window, surely? 

You also have to take into account the Jorge Mendes link with Wolves. He's allowed them to bring in players who are just way above the championship like Neves, with the goal of selling them on in the future. 

Kind of a hard club for us, or anyone rather to be compared with.

[cannable]

10 minutes ago, GadFly said:

Yep, it's also the same Wolves that were in league 1 when we were in a playoff final. The same Wolves that finished 9 points and 6 league positions below us last season. 

There's more to take in to account than just net transfer spend over one window, surely? 

The same Wolves whose squad wasn’t a mess…

[clough08]

38 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

Sometimes managers get it right first time - Sometimes managers need a but more time - Sometimes managers never get it right

We can all come up with examples of managers who fit into each bracket - It happens to be that this season a number of 'new' managers are doing well - Other people's performance has nothing to do with how ,long it might take Rowett to turn things around - He's still saying the team isn't quite there 

Surely this is the point. Most managers fit into all 3 categories at various times -  even Brian Clough:

Got it right pretty quick   - Hartlepool, Derby, Forest

Needed more time - Brighton

Would never get it right - Leeds

The hard bit is knowing whether the manager needs more time or will never get it right at a particular club. If they don't get time you will never know. I'm reasonably OK with GR though I don't believe we've appointed the best available manager since NC. However, GR needs another season after this before we'll have an idea if he's the right man.

[cheron85]

5 minutes ago, clough08 said:

The hard bit is knowing whether the manager needs more time or will never get it right at a particular club. If they don't get time you will never know. I'm reasonably OK with GR though I don't believe we've appointed the best available manager since NC. However, GR needs another season after this before we'll have an idea if he's the right man.

For me the biggest mistake Uncle Mel has made was his very first decision - Getting rid of McClaren - The McClaren/Simpson combo would have delivered us an exciting but pragmatic style of football and with the investment Morris was about to ladle out we could have been quite a force

However - I broadly agree about Rowett - He's done well enough results-wise so far to suggest he's not a disaster and he certainly hasn't been an immediate success - So it's got to be a matter of time - And (oddly) we'll only know whether he'll be a success or not after a decent period of time!

[AdamRam]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Ok strip out the sales (even though we know ours have made us significantly worse). Wolves spent circa £10m or double what we did this summer, add to this the additional circa £20m more in the previous season.

Comparing Derby and Wolves is in no way a fair comparison. 

Depends what the expectations of both clubs are, Wolves are challenging for promotion via the autos and are 10 points ahead of us. So if they finish 30 Points ahead of us based on current projections, why is it not a fair comparison, just because we may have different targets doesn’t mean you can not compare given that both managers are in their first season. That’s not even taking into account one was a bottom half club and the other an established top 10 team.

How about we throw the red dogs in the mix, what was their net spend compared to ours (genuine question I don’t know), and therefore given we are almost level on points and they got rid of their best player and they faced a relegation battle last season for me it highlights that needs several transfer windows is not a good excuse.  

Nexr we will be saying Koeman was doing a good job ;-)

[AdamRam]

1 hour ago, cheron85 said:

Sometimes managers get it right first time - Sometimes managers need a but more time - Sometimes managers never get it right

We can all come up with examples of managers who fit into each bracket - It happens to be that this season a number of 'new' managers are doing well - Other people's performance has nothing to do with how ,long it might take Rowett to turn things around - He's still saying the team isn't quite there 

Sunderland, Birmingham and Hull all had new managers this season and (two anyway) would have had reasonable expectations of being above where they are - Fulham and Reading both did fairly well last term and are having poor starts - Bristol City, Cardiff and Sheff Utd have come from basically nowhere this season - It's the Championship - It's always a bit mad like this - Remember Blackpool's single season where everything just seemed to click? 

We're looking for long term stability - That doesn't necessarily come over-night 

Nope it doesn’t, I can only judge upon what i see, and for me the club are going backwards under GR.  Having said that the results don’t back me up, but I believe he is not the man that will take us anywhere near the PL either this season or the next or the one after that.

My own personal opinion on what he says, what he has done here and other clubs, and what I am seeing on the pitch.  Time will tell if I’m right or not, hopefully not and I’m more than happy to admit when I’m wrong.

[cheron85]

7 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Nope it doesn’t, I can only judge upon what i see, and for me the club are going backwards under GR.  Having said that the results don’t back me up, but I believe he is not the man that will take us anywhere near the PL either this season or the next or the one after that.

My own personal opinion on what he says, what he has done here and other clubs, and what I am seeing on the pitch.  Time will tell if I’m right or not, hopefully not and I’m more than happy to admit when I’m wrong.

I'm entirely skeptical too - However I know there's a bedding in period on these things - He's said on numerous occasions that he's not been happy with our performances - When we win and he says that it gives me some reassurance that he wants better from us

I think the point is we need to give it time to tell whether he's good enough or not - We won't know that for a while yet so we need to give it time

[AdamRam]

30 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

I'm entirely skeptical too - However I know there's a bedding in period on these things - He's said on numerous occasions that he's not been happy with our performances - When we win and he says that it gives me some reassurance that he wants better from us

I think the point is we need to give it time to tell whether he's good enough or not - We won't know that for a while yet so we need to give it time

Wanting and being able to do better are two different things - time will tell because I don’t think he is going anywhere.

[G STAR RAM]

46 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Depends what the expectations of both clubs are, Wolves are challenging for promotion via the autos and are 10 points ahead of us. So if they finish 30 Points ahead of us based on current projections, why is it not a fair comparison, just because we may have different targets doesn’t mean you can not compare given that both managers are in their first season. That’s not even taking into account one was a bottom half club and the other an established top 10 team.

How about we throw the red dogs in the mix, what was their net spend compared to ours (genuine question I don’t know), and therefore given we are almost level on points and they got rid of their best player and they faced a relegation battle last season for me it highlights that needs several transfer windows is not a good excuse.  

Nexr we will be saying Koeman was doing a good job ;-)

They spent about £5m so not too different to us.

Warburton has definitely had a bigger impact on them than Rowett has with us and, despite beating them, I thought that was evident in the match at Pride Park.

I think overall conclusion is some managers are doing better than Rowett and some doing worse.

[AdamRam]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

They spent about £5m so not too different to us.

Warburton has definitely had a bigger impact on them than Rowett has with us and, despite beating them, I thought that was evident in the match at Pride Park.

I think overall conclusion is some managers are doing better than Rowett and some doing worse.

Haven’t we spent around 12m?

[G STAR RAM]

20 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Haven’t we spent around 12m?

Not sure to be honest. Just quickly glanced at Transfermrkt for figures

[Mistaram]

4 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

They spent about £5m so not too different to us.

Warburton has definitely had a bigger impact on them than Rowett has with us and, despite beating them, I thought that was evident in the match at Pride Park.

I think overall conclusion is some managers are doing better than Rowett and some doing worse.

You couldn't have two more different managers Rowett is a don't lose manager Warburton is keep playing football you will win some and lose some Hence Derby have lost 4 Forest have lost 8 Who is right and who is wrong you take your choice Right now Forest will finish above Derby but see what January brings Sign a good midfielder and it could make us a good side we have the strikers that's not a problem