Nigel Clough Sacking

[ramblur]

1 hour ago, TheDeadlySaul said:

Ipswich 14/15, Burnley 13/14 and Brighton 13/14 all reached the playoffs on budgets hardly any different than Clough ever had. 

Seeing as it takes very little time,and I'm having fun,just to complete your impressive hat trick,Brighton's overall wages were £20.3m(down a bit from the previous year),although they did make a trading  surplus on players of £1.7m,compared to a deficit of £1.1m the previous year.

[ramblur]

36 minutes ago, ramblur said:

Won't even bother looking at the others,but your Burnley £0 is obviously a code for total wages (excluding promotion bonuses) of £15.458m (very similar to the previous year's figure),with incoming transfers just under £5m and outgoing transfers just under £2m,so yeah,just like Nigel had.

Just realised that the outgoing transfers figure represented the original cost of the player transferred,who may well have been Charlie Austen,so the book profit is probably much higher

Just checked and the profit was £3.4m

[davenportram]

1 hour ago, TheDeadlySaul said:

This was their budgets in those seasons: 

Ipswich - £135,000 

Brighton - £0 

Burnley - £0

Although @ramblur has taken time to find the actual figures I'd like to go record as saying without doing any digging I could tell you were deliberately posting stupid figures as no one would post such a ridiculous claim and actually believe it.

[TheDeadlySaul]

12 minutes ago, davenportram said:

Although @ramblur has taken time to find the actual figures I'd like to go record as saying without doing any digging I could tell you were deliberately posting stupid figures as no one would post such a ridiculous claim and actually believe it.

I was stating the transfer money those clubs spent and where they finished, which are facts. Nothing I've stated is wrong. 

[PodgeyRam]

21 minutes ago, TheDeadlySaul said:

I was stating the transfer money those clubs spent and where they finished, which are facts. Nothing I've stated is wrong. 

The problem is you and @ramblur are talking about two different things. He asked you if you knew what the budgets for those teams were and replied by giving him how much they spent on transfer fees. They are not the same thing.

[uttoxram75]

I think its safe to say that no one is going to change their position on this. 

I believe we would be a mid table premiership team by now if he hadn't been sacked but its purely my opinion and we'll never know one way or the other.

 

[barnsley ram]

2 hours ago, TheDeadlySaul said:

what 

you make me smile

[GerryDaly]

Can we bring Nigel back ? 

His surname has a nice ring to it to my ears 

 

 

[cannable]

5 hours ago, ronnieronalde said:

Ahead of the 2012–13 season, Buxton was placed as Derby's most experience available defender following the sale of Jason Shackell to Burnley and the injury to Barker, and Nigel Clough stated his faith in Buxton's ability to become a first team regular at Championship level,[29] Buxton opened the season with three goals in two games, with a brace in a 5–5 League Cup draw with Ssausagehorpe United[30] and a strike in the opening league game against Sheffield Wednesday.[31] Buxton spent the start of the season in and out of the starting line-up, competing with new signing James O'Connor to start alongside captain Richard Keogh, a battle Buxton was winning until he was sent off for a second bookable offence in the 3–0 loss at Peterborough United on 27 October 2012.[32] After several games on the bench after his suspension, Buxton returned to the starting before being ruled out for two months after picking up a knee injury following his goal in a 3–1 win against Leeds United.[33] Buxton returned to first team action in a 2–2 draw at Sheffield Wednesday[34] and was praised for his courage by Clough after he was forced to start at short notice due to an injury picked up by Mark O'Brien in the pre-match warm-up.[35] Buxton retained his place in the starting line-up alongside Keogh and scored his fifth goal of the season with an 88th-minute winner in a 2–1 win at Leeds United on 1 April.[36] Later on in the month, Buxton signed a new two-year contract.[37]

Despite losing his squad number of 5, Buxton was considered to be the first choice centre back for 2013–14, as Shaun Barker and Mark O'Brien were still recovering from knee injuries.[38]

http://www.wow.com/wiki/Jake_Buxton

http://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=33646&season_id=142 - Jakes appearances in 2012/13

I can do some more digging if you want Cannable, but you'll see from wow.com that he was injured for two months and you'll see soccerbase that bucko played 31 league games, the games he didn't' play in, he was injured or suspended.

NC did his usual trick of teaching a player a lesson after a sending off and a hammering at Peterboro, but for the rest of the games, he was never behind O'Connor. I'd also be fair and say maybe it took NC some time to trust that Jake could play week in week out to a consistently high level, especially with the ball at his feet.

I don't really understand why you're being arsey with me. You've liked enough of my posts to know that I thought Clough did a good job.

I don't deal in agendas though. He gets credit where it's due, I'll hammer anybody who's spouting *****, but I'm not going to lie for him. He saw Bucko as the stopper and JoC as the ball-player. I don't recall Bucko spraying it pre-McClaren as he did during his tenure. 

So please, do some more digging…

[ramblur]

2 hours ago, TheDeadlySaul said:

I was stating the transfer money those clubs spent and where they finished, which are facts. Nothing I've stated is wrong. 

Firstly I have to apologise over Ipswich.I'd gone to bed and suddenly remembered they were in an East Anglian derby play off one year.I threw "Championship table 14/15" into google again,but this time noticed that the first entry for a table headed 14/15 was actually the current season's table.The first time I just looked for Ipswich and didn't really pay much notice to the rest. However,the wage budget is just as important as the transfer budget,and their overall budget of close to £16m was higher than Nigel was able to play with (£12m in his last full season).

When looking at the other 2,just looking at the transfer spend in one season only doesn't tell the full story,because you also have to look at the years leading up to it.In Brighton's case,their owners funded transfer activity and wages substantially.In 12/13 they spent £4.278m with very little by way of disposals,and the previous year they spent £4.537m with no disposals,whilst also funding wages way over what Nigel was ever allowed.Show me any year where Clough was allowed to spend anywhere near £4m- you'd be hard pressed to find much over £2m and even that was mostly financed by sales.

In Burnley's case they had 4 years of parachute payments up to and including 13/14 and were also able to sell Prem players to finance transfers and high wage bills.In 12/13 they spent £2.2m,in 11/12 £4.2m and in 10/11 £4.7m,again far more than Nigel was ever allowed to spend,with wages a lot more than Nigel was allowed.

So none of the 3 were really fair overall comparisons.

[ramblur]

3 hours ago, ramblur said:

Ipswich did well to reach the play offs finishing 16th (on an overall wage budget of nearly £16m)

Apologised for this error in my above post.

[rynny]

5 hours ago, TheDeadlySaul said:

Ipswich 14/15, Burnley 13/14 and Brighton 13/14 all reached the playoffs on budgets hardly any different than Clough ever had. 

 

4 hours ago, ramblur said:

Now show me their budgets and the comparative budgets Clough had,which you must surely know in order to make the statement you have. 

Whenever this arises I always think of Blackpool when they were promoted under Holloway. No idea what they spent or what their wages were, just remember it being mentioned the inly cash they really spent was what we gave them for Barker.

[davenportram]

7 hours ago, TheDeadlySaul said:

I was stating the transfer money those clubs spent and where they finished, which are facts. Nothing I've stated is wrong. 

Check ramblers post I think you will find you are 

[Day]

4 hours ago, rynny said:

Whenever this arises I always think of Blackpool when they were promoted under Holloway. No idea what they spent or what their wages were, just remember it being mentioned the inly cash they really spent was what we gave them for Barker.

Same, 10/11, quick look a net spend of £4m that summer, £0 the season before and 600k before that. 

No idea on wages but I bet there would be more peanuts in a monkey cage.

[archied]

The truth is we will honestly never know what would/ could clough do given a larger budget and time to build from that criteria , the one thing that is beyond doubt though is that he is a very solid manager that knows how to get the basics right and he did a good job at Derby over his time with us given the restrictions he worked under , 

could / would he have got us up and kept us up ? My gut feeling is he yes but there's a few factors that come in to play that go against him

1. I really believe his scouting would have had to been expanded to get the players to take us to the next level and that is easier said than done .

2. Clough can be very dour and come across as stubborn so my concern is could he keep fans and owners onboard to give him the time needed ?  For me that will be his Achilles heel ,

the clough name splits us fans on Nigel issue and yes we can say he may not be creating such debate without it but don't let that cloud the fact that behind that name there is also the underlying issue that splits us and that is the build or buy debate ,, some loved the way Derby were seen as building with no money as opposed to the Derby who throw money about but have (up till now) failed , 

i do think rowett will have a lot of the clough qualities in terms of the basics to build from but perhaps he also has that little sprinkle of personality that can get him to the next level faster ,,,, here's hoping ,

 

 

[ronnieronalde]

7 hours ago, cannable said:

I don't really understand why you're being arsey with me. You've liked enough of my posts to know that I thought Clough did a good job.

I don't deal in agendas though. He gets credit where it's due, I'll hammer anybody who's spouting *****, but I'm not going to lie for him. He saw Bucko as the stopper and JoC as the ball-player. I don't recall Bucko spraying it pre-McClaren as he did during his tenure. 

So please, do some more digging…

Sorry mate, not attempting to be arsey with you at all. Really, apologies if it's got too harsh looking.

I was just coming back with facts around the argument and supporting that with links to stories, sometimes I go too far to prove my point.

[barnsley ram]

12 minutes ago, archied said:

The truth is we will honestly never know what would/ could clough do given a larger budget and time to build from that criteria , the one thing that is beyond doubt though is that he is a very solid manager that knows how to get the basics right and he did a good job at Derby over his time with us given the restrictions he worked under , 

could / would he have got us up and kept us up ? My gut feeling is he yes but there's a few factors that come in to play that go against him

1. I really believe his scouting would have had to been expanded to get the players to take us to the next level and that is easier said than done .

2. Clough can be very dour and come across as stubborn so my concern is could he keep fans and owners onboard to give him the time needed ?  For me that will be his Achilles heel ,

the clough name splits us fans on Nigel issue and yes we can say he may not be creating such debate without it but don't let that cloud the fact that behind that name there is also the underlying issue that splits us and that is the build or buy debate ,, some loved the way Derby were seen as building with no money as opposed to the Derby who throw money about but have (up till now) failed , 

i do think rowett will have a lot of the clough qualities in terms of the basics to build from but perhaps he also has that little sprinkle of personality that can get him to the next level faster ,,,, here's hoping ,

 

 

good post puts things in perspective makes a refreshing change to read something sensible and respectful

[ramsbottom]

16 hours ago, ramblur said:

The PBSE figures are facts from the audited accounts.I just remembered that I was looking at Global Derby accounts in those days and that their accounts were signed off later than DCFC,which meant that their PBSE figure featured both windows for the following season. The definitive spend for SM was £7,918,096. Never mind the keys to the kingdom,I wonder what NC could have done with that kind of money.

With regard to the £4m increase in wages,it's impossible to say who was responsible for it. However,Nigel brought in Grant,Martin,Russell,Forsyth and Eustace ,and ditched Luke Adams,Roberts,Fielding,Brayford,Robinson and Tyson,so there doesn't seem to be much of a wage increase there (Fees received  were reported to be twice those paid,in aggregate).On the other hand,SM brought in Cisse and Lee Naylor on frees;between 30th September and 28th November he brought in Whitbread,Dawkins,Wisdom and Keane on loan,and in January he brought in Bamford and Thorne on loan, so I know where my money's going  

Just to finish,clough loaned out Atkins,Doyle,Ball,Tom Naylor,Morch and O'Connor,whilst SM loaned out Jacobs,Freeman and Ball (again).

We'll never know, because he was sacked for being a limited manager, who was only taking the club so far.  Bar those in charge of elite clubs, all managers work to certain restrictions.  Schteve may have had a bit more leeway but the narrative that he spent millions upon millions is false.  He did more with the tools he was given to work with than Nigel because he is a better coach/manager than Nigel.  

Despite what I'm saying, I like Nigel.  He's an honest, no nonsense football man, but he was never going to get us promoted.  And, as many people have pointed out, if he had any other surname I doubt any of us would be having this conversation.  Even though we've had a proper clusterf**k of a season, we've still managed to finish a place above his highest league finish.  

I can't wait to say all this again in 6 months time if GR hasn't got us nestled right in the mix for promotion, and people get all teary-eyed about the good times under 'r Nige'...

[ramblur]

10 hours ago, rynny said:

 

Whenever this arises I always think of Blackpool when they were promoted under Holloway. No idea what they spent or what their wages were, just remember it being mentioned the inly cash they really spent was what we gave them for Barker.

Yep,you've hit the jackpot there,rynny. I remember that year now,the year when Charlie Adam could do no wrong. You're quite right,they got £727k in for transfers,which must be Barker, and spent £1.1m,a lot of which must have been Adam.They also loaned D.J.Campbell,Barry Bannan,Seamus Coleman and Stephen Dobbie. Total wages were £12,622,189, but half of this would have been promotion bonuses.

I seem to remember they didn't spend a great deal more in the Prem on either wages or fees,but still weren't far from staying up.

Fair dos to Olly,though I doubt we'll see that kind of thing repeated for a very long time (if ever). 

[PrivateDerby]

On 11/05/2017 at 09:02, tomsdubs said:

Dean Moxey upfront. Let that sink in. WE KNEW WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO DO SO IT WAS FINE.

Yeah I remember that one game too.