De Sart - Signed on loan

[RamsPolls]

Just now, Simsy said:

My mate a Blackburn fan (who watches both Derby and Blackburn regular by the way @cheron85) agrees. Thinks Rhodes is just what we have missed last few years.

Lets be honest Rhodes is a proven 20 LEAGUE goals a season striker

Well I would have to argue with this point. 

From what i've seen of Rhodes... 

The last time he hit 20+ goals a season was 2 years ago when he was playing every game with Gestede at Rovers. 

He has never played in a 4-3-3 system and scored frequently. He can adapt because last season he played all season on his own but he wasn't scoring as many as he did when Gestede was his striking partner. 

I'm sure he would probably score a fair few here... But to have Rhodes come in & it looks like Martin will return... We wouldn't be able to accommodate both of them next season. 

[cheron85]

52 minutes ago, Simsy said:

My mate a Blackburn fan (who watches both Derby and Blackburn regular by the way @cheron85) agrees. Thinks Rhodes is just what we have missed last few years.

Lets be honest Rhodes is a proven 20 LEAGUE goals a season striker

Yes, we've established he can score goals... The point is we have a team/system which necessitates more contribution than that from our lone striker... This was the case under Nigel C, Clement, Wassall, Smacca x2 and probably would have been with Nigel P too...

Looking at combined goals and assists combined over the last 3 full seasons:

15/16 - Rhodes 19, Martin 25

14/15 - Rhodes 26, Martin 28

13/14 - Rhodes 29, Martin 34

Just like we have a system where our wingers need to be able to defend as well as attack, and our full backs need to attack as well as defend... We need a striker who can both score AND add value elsewhere

[brady1993]

21 minutes ago, Simsy said:

My mate a Blackburn fan (who watches both Derby and Blackburn regular by the way @cheron85) agrees. Thinks Rhodes is just what we have missed last few years.

Lets be honest Rhodes is a proven 20 LEAGUE goals a season striker

Jordan Rhodes: 

• 2015/16 - 42 Appearances 16 Goals 2 Assists 27 Chances Created(Combined for Blackburn and Boro)
• 2014/15 - 40 Appearances 21 Goals 5 Assists 36 CC
• 2013/14 - 45 Appearances 25 Goals 4 Assists 56 CC
• Total - 127 Appearances 62 Goals 11 Assists 119 CC
• Goals per game - 0.49,  Assists per game - 0.09, CC per game 0.94

Chris Martin:

• 2015/16 - 45 Appearances 15 Goals 10 Assists 77 CC
• 2014/15 - 35 Appearances 18 Goals 3 Assists 53 CC
• 2013/14 - 47 Appearances 22 Goals 8 Assists 70 CC
• Total - 127 Appearances 55 Goals 21 Assists 200 CC
• Goals per game - 0.43,  Assists per game - 0.17, CC per game 1.57

From this we can take away that Rhodes is marginally a better goalscorer (give them both 100 games and Rhodes would score an extra 6 goals on average) but Martin is significantly more creative; produce nearly double the assists of Rhodes and creating almost double the number of chances. So without even taking into account how the playstyle of each player fits into our playstyle, Martin contributes more.

Rhodes is pure and simply a goal poacher, put it on a plate for him and he will score, but he will do close to bugger all else. Playing 433 (which we would should as it suits the rest of team) requires a striker who is going to get involved with play and help link-up the midfield, Rhodes has never shown any capability in this regard. Hell we've even got a player who is similar to Rhodes but is better at it in Bent, and even he has had to adapt his game for the better of team. 

Our problems as an attacking unit are not being able to establish consistent pressure in an opponent's half and being able to create chances, Rhodes won't solve that and in fact could exacerbate it. 

[brady1993]

9 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

Yes, we've established he can score goals... The point is we have a team/system which necessitates more contribution than that from our lone striker... This was the case under Nigel C, Clement, Wassall, Smacca x2 and probably would have been with Nigel P too...

Looking at combined goals and assists combined over the last 3 full seasons:

15/16 - Rhodes 19, Martin 25

14/15 - Rhodes 26, Martin 28

13/14 - Rhodes 29, Martin 34

Just like we have a system where our wingers need to be able to defend as well as attack, and our full backs need to attack as well as defend... We need a striker who can both score AND add value elsewhere

Beat me too it. The one thing I really don't get is why anyone would want Rhodes when we have Bent.

[cheron85]

2 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Beat me too it. The one thing I really don't get is why anyone would want Rhodes when we have Bent.

Well I guess people would argue Bent hasn't produced as recently as Rhodes and is older...

However he IS a natural goalscorer and the fact we're not currently creating enough chances for him shows that we need a different kind of forward... Not the same kind...

[The_Sheriff]

Hang on a minute. Martins stats are taken from derby. A team consistently at the right end of the table in those 3 seasons from Martin.  Rhodes is doing that at a team at the wrong side of the table who spend most the game chasing the ball.

Look it would benefit me greatly if Martin was better then Rhodes but unfortunately when I take my rose tinted ram glasses off its obvious he's not.

 Rhodes wouldn't go 22 games without a goal or whatever it was!  

[DEL]

53 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Beat me too it. The one thing I really don't get is why anyone would want Rhodes when we have Bent.

Exactly. 

[Nuwtfly]

2 minutes ago, Simsy said:

Hang on a minute. Martins stats are taken from derby. A team consistently at the right end of the table in those 3 seasons from Martin.  Rhodes is doing that at a team at the wrong side of the table who spend most the game chasing the ball.

Look it would benefit me greatly if Martin was better then Rhodes but unfortunately when I take my rose tinted ram glasses off its obvious he's not.

 Rhodes wouldn't go 22 games without a goal or whatever it was!  

My thoughts exactly, well said Simsy. 

[cheron85]

8 minutes ago, Simsy said:

Hang on a minute. Martins stats are taken from derby. A team consistently at the right end of the table in those 3 seasons from Martin.  Rhodes is doing that at a team at the wrong side of the table who spend most the game chasing the ball.

Look it would benefit me greatly if Martin was better then Rhodes but unfortunately when I take my rose tinted ram glasses off its obvious he's not.

 Rhodes wouldn't go 22 games without a goal or whatever it was!  

The problem you have there is that it makes you argument LESS valid... He scored a very very high percentage of Blackburn's goals... But contributed very little to the rest of the play...

I'd be more impressed with a player at the bottom end who was creating more chances but not getting the goals... That's a player who in our system would thrive...

[brady1993]

5 minutes ago, Simsy said:

 

Hang on a minute. Martins stats are taken from derby. A team consistently at the right end of the table in those 3 seasons because of Martin

 

FTFY 

5 minutes ago, Simsy said:

 

Hang on a minute. Martins stats are taken from derby. A team consistently at the right end of the table in those 3 seasons from Martin.  Rhodes is doing that at a team at the wrong side of the table who spend most the game chasing the ball.

Look it would benefit me greatly if Martin was better then Rhodes but unfortunately when I take my rose tinted ram glasses off its obvious he's not.

 Rhodes wouldn't go 22 games without a goal or whatever it was!

 

In all seriousness though it's a reasonable argument in the abstract right up to the point you realise that Rhodes' goals per game went down after moving to Middlesbrough. In the championship for boro he scored 6 goals in 17 appearances (13 starts) which is below his average for Blackburn suggesting putting Rhodes' in a better side has little bearing on his goal scoring. This is before we get into the other arguments, that you have avoided entirely, that Martin is a significantly more creative player, has a skill set beyond being just a goal hanger and is far more suited to playing as a 'lone' striker.

[Nuwtfly]

5 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

The problem you have there is that it makes you argument LESS valid... He scored a very very high percentage of Blackburn's goals... But contributed very little to the rest of the play...

I'd be more impressed with a player at the bottom end who was creating more chances but not getting the goals... That's a player who in our system would thrive...

Do you have any stats to back that up? Would like to know just how many assists/chances created Rhodes contributed during his time at an absolutely terrible Blackburn side.

On your second point...you'd rather have Danny Ward of Rotherham than Jordan Rhodes on that basis?

[cheron85]

4 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Do you have any stats to back that up? Would like to know just how many assists/chances created Rhodes contributed during his time at an absolutely terrible Blackburn side.

On your second point...you'd rather have Danny Ward of Rotherham than Jordan Rhodes on that basis?

Check back to @brady1993's post... He showed the difference in the number of assists and chances created by the 2...

And I have no idea about Danny Ward so don't know.

[brady1993]

17 minutes ago, Simsy said:

 Rhodes wouldn't go 22 games without a goal or whatever it was!  

For a start it was 11 games and you're right I doubt he would either. Like I doubted Martin would have done or will do in the future. Like I thought Bent would have scored more in the past 10 games or so. Sometimes strikers have lean spells, sometimes it's there fault and sometimes it isn't. However when Martin isn't scoring he still contributes to the game, he racked up about 5 or 6 assists in that spell, whereas if Rhodes doesn't score he might as well have not played.

One thing I'm really curious about is what do you think Rhodes offers differently than Bent ? Both are renowned as goal poachers.

[brady1993]

6 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Do you have any stats to back that up? Would like to know just how many assists/chances created Rhodes contributed during his time at an absolutely terrible Blackburn side.

On your second point...you'd rather have Danny Ward of Rotherham than Jordan Rhodes on that basis?

1 hour ago, brady1993 said:

Jordan Rhodes: 

• 2015/16 - 42 Appearances 16 Goals 2 Assists 27 Chances Created(Combined for Blackburn and Boro)
• 2014/15 - 40 Appearances 21 Goals 5 Assists 36 CC
• 2013/14 - 45 Appearances 25 Goals 4 Assists 56 CC
• Total - 127 Appearances 62 Goals 11 Assists 119 CC
• Goals per game - 0.49,  Assists per game - 0.09, CC per game 0.94

Chris Martin:

• 2015/16 - 45 Appearances 15 Goals 10 Assists 77 CC
• 2014/15 - 35 Appearances 18 Goals 3 Assists 53 CC
• 2013/14 - 47 Appearances 22 Goals 8 Assists 70 CC
• Total - 127 Appearances 55 Goals 21 Assists 200 CC
• Goals per game - 0.43,  Assists per game - 0.17, CC per game 1.57

From this we can take away that Rhodes is marginally a better goalscorer (give them both 100 games and Rhodes would score an extra 6 goals on average) but Martin is significantly more creative; produce nearly double the assists of Rhodes and creating almost double the number of chances. So without even taking into account how the playstyle of each player fits into our playstyle, Martin contributes more.

Rhodes is pure and simply a goal poacher, put it on a plate for him and he will score, but he will do close to bugger all else. Playing 433 (which we would should as it suits the rest of team) requires a striker who is going to get involved with play and help link-up the midfield, Rhodes has never shown any capability in this regard. Hell we've even got a player who is similar to Rhodes but is better at it in Bent, and even he has had to adapt his game for the better of team. 

Our problems as an attacking unit are not being able to establish consistent pressure in an opponent's half and being able to create chances, Rhodes won't solve that and in fact could exacerbate it. 

 

 

[brady1993]

9 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Do you have any stats to back that up? Would like to know just how many assists/chances created Rhodes contributed during his time at an absolutely terrible Blackburn side.

On your second point...you'd rather have Danny Ward of Rotherham than Jordan Rhodes on that basis?

Here's the thing, Blackburn weren't actually terrible in the time period mentioned. They finished 8th in 13/14, 9th in 14/15 and 15th in 15/16. So it's only been recently they've terrible. 

I'd prefer Chris Martin but between them two given the choice I'd probably take Ward (assuming he actually is a more 'allround' player, haven't seen him play a deal)

[Nuwtfly]

So according to @brady1993's excellent post:

13/14: Rhodes scores more goals in less appearances for a worse side, but has half the assists

14/15: Rhodes scores more goals than Martin and gets more assists

15/16: Scores more goals despite having to move clubs and fit into a whole new system.

Now, am I viewing this with Rhodes-tinted glasses, or on this evidence, does that not make Rhodes a) the better striker and b)someone we should be keen to sign?

Looks to me that the only area Martin really tips Rhodes on all basis is his chances created, and considering we have Hughes, Butterfield, Ince, Johnson, Thorne and two full-backs that get forward and create chances, that might not be such a bad thing? 

[brady1993]

1 minute ago, Nuwtfly said:

So according to @brady1993's excellent post:

13/14: Rhodes scores more goals in less appearances for a worse side, but has half the assists

14/15: Rhodes scores more goals than Martin and gets more assists

15/16: Scores more goals despite having to move clubs and fit into a whole new system.

Now, am I viewing this with Rhodes-tinted glasses, or on this evidence, does that not make Rhodes a) the better striker and b)someone we should be keen to sign?

Looks to me that the only area Martin really tips Rhodes on all basis is his chances created, and considering we have Hughes, Butterfield, Ince, Johnson, Thorne and two full-backs that get forward and create chances, that might not be such a bad thing? 

I think you're picking and choosing things to serve an argument and not really taking into account the big picture. You seem to be taking into account factor such as appearances only when it favors Rhodes. It's why I choose to do my comparisons over the course of the three seasons, to take into account fluctuations and because they conveniently have the exact same number of appearances. And when you do that you see that Rhodes shades it terms of goals (the difference is marginal really though) but Martin completely blows Rhodes' out of the water when it comes to Assists and chances created. 

This doesn't take into account the obvious, that Martin's playstyle is far more suited than Rhodes' to our playstyle. Most of Rhodes' success has come from play as a two (at Boro he had a 10 behind him don't forget), whereas Martin's biggest success has come as playing as a 'lone' striker in a 433. 

I see where you're coming from about chances created by the rest of team but barring the injured Thorne and Christie, we have had all of those player's available under our recent run and yet we aren't creating many chances. Don't you think it's a coincidence that we've gone from a team who was regarded as have one of the deadliest attacks in the championship to one with the second worst attack (Before you say it, yes I know this is skewed by the numpty who was in charge at the start of the season but our attack still isn't 'good') ? The only thing has really changed is the loss of Martin. A lot of our creative issues recently are because without a striker with good link-up player our attacking midfielders can't assert themselves in the opposition half as well and can't gamble as much on breaking beyond the striker.

We have a goal poacher already in Bent, who has a far better pedigree than Rhodes and Rhodes offers nothing that Bent isn't doing right now whereas Martin offers something very different. Now there are strikers out there who can probably do what Martin has done for us (Ulloa springs to mind as someone who is a realistic target) but Rhodes isn't what we need. 

 

 

[Rev]

Very good arguments on this thread both for and against, if we end up with both somehow I'd trust Mac to get them working together.

 

[RadioactiveWaste]

23 minutes ago, reveldevil said:

Very good arguments on this thread both for and against, if we end up with both somehow I'd trust Mac to get them working together.

 

No he wouldn't, the midfield would go on strike over dangerous undermanning.

[BobbyD]

I hope the lad does well, its in all our interests that he does.

But signings like these makes me question the whole point of having an academy.

If we really cannot plug our gaps with players from the first team periphery and the academy then you have to question its whole validity.

On the face of it, this guy has no right to walk into the first team. He is not adding to the strength of the team. He is not clearly superior to what we already have and its not as if we  would be daft not to add him to our squad.

And yet he now becomes a member of the first team squad

Hanson, Elsnick, Rawson, they are now yet another step away from getting their chance. Even Bryson could take up the role of defensive midfielder if required. He now has less options at the club.

Personally I would shut the academy, cut our losses and just rely on the transfer market when needed. Its what we have always done anyway.