Day Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 6 hours ago, Ninos said: Play Martin on the left wing and see how many goals he gets. Just sayin. Keep up with the thread, just saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 13 hours ago, David said: Players will do what they can to force a move, unfair to suggest clubs are advising players to go on strike. Come on son. of course Derby told him to go on strike. And rewarded him with a pay rise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth's left foot Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 1 hour ago, toddy said: It shows how poor we became when we were willing to shell out 9 million for a player worth maybe 2. Vydra and Derby just don't fit. That does not make Martin the answer, the trouble is we will be stuck with Martin regardless if this seasons performances continue into next season, £30, 000 a week and a long contract, who would take him on? The club just decided to spend Martin's proposed transfer fee on another striker, Vydra is up there with selling Dailly for £5m as daylight robbery. Anya is also over priced, I have said before that we need more younger players from league one which GR has intimated could be his preferred option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 2 hours ago, toddy said: It shows how poor we became when we were willing to shell out 9 million for a player worth maybe 2. Vydra and Derby just don't fit. That does not make Martin the answer, the trouble is we will be stuck with Martin regardless if this seasons performances continue into next season, £30, 000 a week and a long contract, who would take him on? Stuck with a twenty goal a season striker eh......Poor us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 5 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said: Stuck with a twenty goal a season striker eh......Poor us He has only ever scored 20 league goals for us once, just saying dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 19 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said: Stuck with a twenty goal a season striker eh......Poor us How many season's ago was the last time he hit 20? Wait I will get that Deloren back out again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 11 minutes ago, toddy said: How many season's ago was the last time he hit 20? Wait I will get that Deloren back out again. Which strikers do rate for this division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 34 minutes ago, rynny said: Which strikers do rate for this division? The ones that can score the goals, although not a CF but Incy is very good you know..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 5 minutes ago, toddy said: The ones that can score the goals, although not a CF but Incy is very good you know..... So who impresses you from other teams? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodleyRam Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 I'm sure someone has worked this out already but what is our win ratio when Martin plays? How does that compare to Bent? @toddyYou make a huge point about Martin's goals over a season being the most important measure of a striker. In modern football it's merely one of a number of measurements. We don't have the type of squad or style of play where we can afford a striker who just scores goals. Bent being a case in point, he's delivered more than I thought he would but ultimately he doesn't have anywhere near the all round contribution that Martin does. He might score but does he contribute as much to overall team performance and therefore our ability to actually win football matches. Your assessment of Martin on goals alone (where he actually fairs pretty well for the most part!) Misses the point pretty spectacularly in terms of his overall contribution and the kind of striker we need. Martin isn't perfect but he's one of the most complete centre forwards at this level and Pearson was an absolute fool to loan him out. Will his coming back solve all our problems? No. But having Martin leading the line again will go a long way in helping to get the best out of other players in our squad. It depends a bit on how GR has us set up but I for one would be disappointed if he didn't try to shape our front 3/4 around Martin as the pivot because it's proven to be effective and will bring the best out in others. 67 pages in, I highly doubt the critics will change their minds but I hope he comes back and proves them wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Sheriff Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, RodleyRam said: I'm sure someone has worked this out already but what is our win ratio when Martin plays? How does that compare to Bent? @toddyYou make a huge point about Martin's goals over a season being the most important measure of a striker. In modern football it's merely one of a number of measurements. We don't have the type of squad or style of play where we can afford a striker who just scores goals. Bent being a case in point, he's delivered more than I thought he would but ultimately he doesn't have anywhere near the all round contribution that Martin does. He might score but does he contribute as much to overall team performance and therefore our ability to actually win football matches. Your assessment of Martin on goals alone (where he actually fairs pretty well for the most part!) Misses the point pretty spectacularly in terms of his overall contribution and the kind of striker we need. Martin isn't perfect but he's one of the most complete centre forwards at this level and Pearson was an absolute fool to loan him out. Will his coming back solve all our problems? No. But having Martin leading the line again will go a long way in helping to get the best out of other players in our squad. It depends a bit on how GR has us set up but I for one would be disappointed if he didn't try to shape our front 3/4 around Martin as the pivot because it's proven to be effective and will bring the best out in others. 67 pages in, I highly doubt the critics will change their minds but I hope he comes back and proves them wrong! I hope so too. Fact is when comparing the 2, bent has played at levels Martin will only dream of he's a welcome addition for me with his goals and experience. martin is far from a complete centre forward! He lacks pace energy and most importantly the ability to score 20+ in this league regularly (done it once)? he has pretty much everything else. Strength, intelligence, passing and passion but certainly not complete. Good but not great. hopefully something clicks with him and vydra but we don't have a lethal striker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodleyRam Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 19 minutes ago, Simsy said: I hope so too. Fact is when comparing the 2, bent has played at levels Martin will only dream of he's a welcome addition for me with his goals and experience. martin is far from a complete centre forward! He lacks pace energy and most importantly the ability to score 20+ in this league regularly (done it once)? he has pretty much everything else. Strength, intelligence, passing and passion but certainly not complete. Good but not great. hopefully something clicks with him and vydra but we don't have a lethal striker. I agree, Bent has surprised me. However, my sense is that whilst Bent has scored goals, he hasn't necessarily won us points. I might be wrong but I'd be guessing that we've gained more points per game with Martin on the pitch than Bent. So I'd suggest that Martin's overall contribution and the way we play with him in the side is more conducive to us winning matches. It's not an either or though for me, we shouldn't be looking to have just one solution to our forward line. Can't think of many other strikers at this level who you could class as much more complete than Martin, it's a rare set of skills to have rolled into one player. I guess my definition of complete is that he's much more rounded, brings others into play and regularly gets on the score sheet himself. He can't necessarily play a diverse set of roles but his all round game is much broader than any other striker we've had here for years. Is he genuinely slow? I don't think so, he just doesn't run about a lot or latch onto things in the same way that a Vydra type forward would. He relies on balls into his feet with others running off him. I don't think that makes him slow per se, it's just not his game to get in behind or run at players himself. I think has a quick mind and at any level that actually counts much more than speed across the ground. Look at the quick strikers we've had and ask yourself whether Martin is a better proposition. Also I'd say he contribution to team goals makes up for the fact that we will hover around 20 a season if we play to his strengths. In the right environment Martin will get 20+ goals a season if he stays injury free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclej Posted March 25, 2017 Author Share Posted March 25, 2017 Have you all forgotten how Martin had lost his form? Balls played to his feet were simply bouncing off him and his scoring had dried up. I'll never forget him screaming in profound rage at the SS after putting a peno away. He isn't part of a future winning Derby side. He is part of the change needed to see us progress. He wont be the only one to exit PP this summer as we lance a massive boil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 @toddy not liking Martin as a player is fine, really is, more than entitled to your opinion, none of us will lose any sleep over it. It's only opinions at the end of the day, some can be born from a dislike over a players face, Camara became a superstar on tweets alone! The problem is when you throw in stats to prove a player is in decline, like goals to back up your opinion there's usually more to it, no stats are that simple. A common one (not you personally) is goals to games which usually include all substitute appearances, Vydra for example 28 games 4 goals, sounds terrible right? They don't tell you he's been played wide left or only 16 of those were starts and he's spent 1533 minutes on the pitch which is 17 games. Doesnt sound so bad now right? And that's not twisting stats to make him sound better, it's using the stats fully, not just grabbing numbers which show a player in a bad light. Martin's goals to minutes (so far) still puts him in the top Championship strikers group, he's up there with the likes of £11m Kodjia, Martin cost us £0. I'm sure I've seen you claim he's now on 30k a week, apparently Kodjia is double that. Goals to minutes can't be dismissed, if a player is on the pitch longer he will have more opportunities to score. Yes they don't award golden boots on it but the stat is still highly relevant when being critical over goals. Assists is another crazy one, they should extend it to the last 3 or 4 touches before a goal for it to become relevent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsdubs Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 I don't mind Martin screaming at folk, wish some players would scream at each other this season. Be a ******* delight as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 20 minutes ago, David said:Assists is another crazy one, they should extend it to the last 3 or 4 touches before a goal for it to become relevent On the subject of assists,following on from the post above about martin's all round play, he has a huge amount of assists to go along with his 20 (or thereabouts) goals a season. I believe there is a stat called 'chances created' or something like that, that takes into account where the player hasn't necessarily had the second to last touch, but has had a significant touch, and I'd be willing to bet Martin is through the roof on that stat too. Whereas your Bents and your Vydras would be wel down by comparison. You can say 'goal scorers are meant to score goals'. Martin does that very well, better than most. But he also creates goals for others. A few seasons ago Bryson was our second top scorer and half of those were created by Martin. So the actual goals he significantly contributed to must be getting on for 40 a season in an uninterrupted season. It still bemuses me how anyone can say that's someone we can afford to let go. Weve gone from being consistently one of the leagues top scoring teams, to one of the bottom scoring teams. Martin hasn't been here this season. Doesn't take a genius to work out the connection there. How many goals has he scored or created for Fulham. Add those goals to our tally, then imagine where we'd be in the league now, whether the defence is having a mare or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEL Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 49 minutes ago, unclej said: Have you all forgotten how Martin had lost his form? Balls played to his feet were simply bouncing off him and his scoring had dried up. I'll never forget him screaming in profound rage at the SS after putting a peno away. He isn't part of a future winning Derby side. He is part of the change needed to see us progress. He wont be the only one to exit PP this summer as we lance a massive boil. Martin didn't screamed at SS lol, he was only saying fooking get in there. He is here next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 How come whenever somebody is challenged to name a better realistic replacement for Martin they can't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 11 minutes ago, cannable said: How come whenever somebody is challenged to name a better realistic replacement for Martin they can't? How come they still haven't learned that running fast is not an essential part of being a striker after years of watching football? It's boring talking to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsdubs Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 1 minute ago, Alpha said: How come they still haven't learned that running fast is not an essential part of being a striker after years of watching football? It's boring talking to them. Theo Robinson was one of the fastest players I've witnessed live if we want a good example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.