Anon Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 15 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said: Sick of seeing this. So you'd take relegation as long as we tried to play 'the right way' .... There is no RIGHT way. Ask the Portuguese if they feel their Euro win was any less of a win because of how they went about it! Losing doesn't hurt any less even when playing nice football and anyone who thinks it does has a different opinion to me and I won't tolerate it. In certain circumstances, yes, I'm quite capable of stomaching a poor result over playing and potentially winning ugly. The thing is you won't find many teams who do play attacking expansive football getting relegated. The best example I can give is when Burley first took charge of the team. The results didn't really improve much in his first season and we were still in a relegation scrap, but the mood around the club was much better because he encouraged our players to pass to feet and you could see that the squad was heading in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 4 hours ago, HantsRam said: I agree with your sentiment. Interestingly and in passing, boro seem to have altered formation and outlook in their first couple of prem games. Playing 442 rather than the dour end of 4231. Burnley haven't. Perhaps boro had a plan all along not to be crashingly dull. Still don't warm to karanka tho... Surely not? I can't believe they change things when they got into the Prem - that wouldn't be allowed! Or, gerra way. You mean we wouldn't have to play the same style of football that got us out of the Championship in the Prem?! Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 I'd rather go up playing dull football than not at all. The difference between the likes of Southampton, Bournemouth, Watford and us is that when they were at the top, they got promoted at their first opportunity unlike us who have had 3 years of failure. You can alter your style when you get up there like Stoke did. I am probably in a minority here but I do love a defensive clean sheet. Makes me pull my hair out when I see a team defensively terrible like we were in the second half of last season. This is competitive sport, the aim is to win. Imagine the calibure of players we could get if we got promoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 28 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Surely not? I can't believe they change things when they got into the Prem - that wouldn't be allowed! Or, gerra way. You mean we wouldn't have to play the same style of football that got us out of the Championship in the Prem?! Lol. Who knows? The source of my in depth boro formation analysis was one of them MOTD graphic thingys. They bought tons of new players as well - 9 new signings or something? But yes, if your basic thesis is that it's possible to design a playing system solely for the purpose of getting out of the division then boro seem to be an example of that. Will they be successful in retaining their prem spot though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 4 hours ago, Anon said: In certain circumstances, yes, I'm quite capable of stomaching a poor result over playing and potentially winning ugly. The thing is you won't find many teams who do play attacking expansive football getting relegated. The best example I can give is when Burley first took charge of the team. The results didn't really improve much in his first season and we were still in a relegation scrap, but the mood around the club was much better because he encouraged our players to pass to feet and you could see that the squad was heading in the right direction. The only attacking team I can think of that was relegated was Blackpool in 10/11… and even then they took it to the final day. This is a team whose first choice left-winger was Luke Varney and DJ Campbell as it's main striker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babylon Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 On 18/08/2016 at 16:42, cheron85 said: Putting aside the fact that it's Pearson... Would you not worry if a guy came in to a team who made the playoffs 2 out of the last 3 years even though we had 3 different managers... And started making wholescale changes? Especially if those changes included dropping your top scorer for the last 3 years and you best player? And then proceeded to play other player out of position just to fit in a formation he told everyone he 'wasn't necessarily going to play'? Of course, I'm not addressing specific issues or mistakes he might have made. But a lot of what you said about him and us was unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mafiabob Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 20 hours ago, RodleyRam said: When will the WINNING at all costs start do you think? Personally I'd rather lose in style having tried to play the right way. So if that happens then, I'd imagine you won't be calling for the managers (any) head? The right way is the winning way. Points mean prizes...... Absolute Poppycock that post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrm14 Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 8 hours ago, IlsonDerby said: Sick of seeing this. So you'd take relegation as long as we tried to play 'the right way' .... There is no RIGHT way. Ask the Portuguese if they feel their Euro win was any less of a win because of how they went about it! Losing doesn't hurt any less even when playing nice football and anyone who thinks it does has a very short memory. There is no RIGHT way but there is certainly a more enjoyable way. Losing also certainly hurts a lot more when you play ugly football. Slightly poor comparison with Portugal because that's international tournament football which is very different. They were also forced to play like that because their squad wasn't as strong as others in the competition. Our squad is extremely strong in this division, so we're not forced into that play style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 8 minutes ago, lrm14 said: There is no RIGHT way but there is certainly a more enjoyable way. Losing also certainly hurts a lot more when you play ugly football. Slightly poor comparison with Portugal because that's international tournament football which is very different. They were also forced to play like that because their squad wasn't as strong as others in the competition. Our squad is extremely strong in this division, so we're not forced into that play style. Okay, Who do you think celebrated their season the most last year, Hull or Derby/Wednesday/Brighton? Another - We played the best football in the league but were still demolished by Leicester 4-1. Do you think they cared that we were known for our attacking football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 7 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said: Okay, Who do you think celebrated their season the most last year, Hull or Derby/Wednesday/Brighton? Another - We played the best football in the league but were still demolished by Leicester 4-1. Do you think they cared that we were known for our attacking football? Probably Wednesday, Hull are a mess… People bringing that Leicester game really does my nut in, it's Leicester, they always do us at their place for the same reason we won ten on the trot against Leeds. We were also without Keogh and had Jeff at holding midfield. It's one game, against a team who see us as rivals, in which we had two of our most important defensive players missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 11 minutes ago, cannable said: Probably Wednesday, Hull are a mess… People bringing that Leicester game really does my nut in, it's Leicester, they always do us at their place for the same reason we won ten on the trot against Leeds. We were also without Keogh and had Jeff at holding midfield. It's one game, against a team who see us as rivals, in which we had two of our most important defensive players missing. So you think the evening of the play off final Wednesday were celebrating more than Hull? The answer is Hull wouldn't have cared how they managed it, just like QPR didn't care that we played the better football when they beat us. The ideal is attacking football and promotion but surely second prize has to be promotion and third attacking football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 9 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said: So you think the evening of the play off final Wednesday were celebrating more than Hull? The answer is Hull wouldn't have cared how they managed it, just like QPR didn't care that we played the better football when they beat us. The ideal is attacking football and promotion but surely second prize has to be promotion and third attacking football? I'd say the ideal is something you can build on. I think Stoke have done really well to make such big changes without suffering and they are now in a great place to recruit and go forwards. But that's rare. Watford, Swansea, Saints, Bournemouth have all had to suck it up at times. But they've not changed philosophy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 11 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said: So you think the evening of the play off final Wednesday were celebrating more than Hull? The answer is Hull wouldn't have cared how they managed it, just like QPR didn't care that we played the better football when they beat us. The ideal is attacking football and promotion but surely second prize has to be promotion and third attacking football? I'd imagine Wednesday to be more optimistic, just as we were. Let's not forget how few Hull fans actually went to Wembley because of their feelings about the Allems. The ideal is building a side that needs little improvement to be able to compete in the Premier League. There's a correlation between sides going up how we want to go up and competing more than they were expected to. You get promoted how ourselves, Cardiff, Burnley, Hull in 2013, Reading in 2012 and others and you need to spend £30,000,000 well just to survive. Reading in 2012 will always stick out in my mind - counter attacking team, looked dog, won the league, relegated. Whereas Southampton genuinley looked good but finished second… they've gone from strength to strength. Bournemouth's most used XI starters last season were all there last season bar just one. You go up playing attacking football and you do well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 This idea that you can't go up playing attractive football is nonsense. I'm pretty sure a number of teams which have been promoted over the past 20 years or so have been good to watch. I'd actually counter your arguement and say the majority that have gone up playing poor, long-ball defensive football have come back down again within two seasons. Stoke are probably the only exception though they had a unique way of playing and relied on literally kicking teams off the park at the Britannia Stadium during the first few years. Another point. I'd rather stay in the Chmapionship forever playing an entertaining brand of football than be a Burnley or Cardiff. Football is an entertainment business. You pay your matchday ticket to be entertained. What can be entertaining about playing rubbish defensive football, scrapping for dear life at the back, wishing the clock down after going 1-0 up. Why would you wish the clock down? Don't you want to get your money's worth? Why pay to go to an away stadium and hope for a draw? Get in there, £40 pound ticket plus travel expenses and straight from kick-off hope the game finishes 0-0. Just so you can watch more of the same for another season. 38 games, winning about 12 of which most were ugly backs-to-the-wall narrow wins where you spend most of the game wishing it ended... That is not entertainment. Give me good football, in any division, any day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, cannable said: I'd imagine Wednesday to be more optimistic, just as we were. Let's not forget how few Hull fans actually went to Wembley because of their feelings about the Allems. The ideal is building a side that needs little improvement to be able to compete in the Premier League. There's a correlation between sides going up how we want to go up and competing more than they were expected to. You get promoted how ourselves, Cardiff, Burnley, Hull in 2013, Reading in 2012 and others and you need to spend £30,000,000 well just to survive. Reading in 2012 will always stick out in my mind - counter attacking team, looked dog, won the league, relegated. Whereas Southampton genuinley looked good but finished second… they've gone from strength to strength. Bournemouth's most used XI starters last season were all there last season bar just one. You go up playing attacking football and you do well. This highlights the misconception of attacking football having to be played quickly across the ground. Bournemouth played with a target man Kermogant, they sometimes went short they sometimes went long/ more direct but the reality is they didn't play one particular way all of the time. Likewise when Leicester went up it was with 2 terrific wingers and a target man (Gary Taylor Fletcher/Chris Wood). Burnley went up again using a target man in a front 2 (Vokes). They were a little more direct but I'm sure they played some very good football during the season. Attacking football doesn't have to be this tip tap tip tap Pep style football, it can be explosive/ quick/ direct and just as effective as having the ball for 60% of the match. Do you think Atleti have any less enjoyment in a season than Barca? Leicester than Arsenal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearl Ram Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Haha, explosive/quick /direct, yeah, we're seeing that. Zenga in at Wolves a couple of days before the season starts, 8 goals for, Stam, new in at Reading, 4 goals for, the same for Trollope, new at Cardiff and Di Matteo at Villa, us ? One chuffin' goal. Still, didn't it come from a particularly explosive quick and direct piece of play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 I have a question... We're playing Newcaste away on February 4th, you've just bought a ticket and you're heading to St. James' Park. A £50 day out perhaps? Maybe more, I'm not sure. So, you get in, take your seat and the referee blows his whistle to kick off. After 2 mins, the game is abandoned for bad weather and the league decide there will be no replay. Game counts as 0-0, one point each. Do you... - Think... Well, one point from Newcastle away is a good result. I'm satisfied Or... - Complain you've just wasted £50 odd quid and not watched any form of entertainment, regardless of whether Derby would have won, drawn or lost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 9 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said: I have a question... We're playing Newcaste away on February 4th, you've just bought a ticket and you're heading to St. James' Park. A £50 day out perhaps? Maybe more, I'm not sure. So, you get in, take your seat and the referee blows his whistle to kick off. After 2 mins, the game is abandoned for bad weather and the league decide there will be no replay. Game counts as 0-0, one point each. Do you... - Think... Well, one point from Newcastle away is a good result. I'm satisfied Or... - Complain you've just wasted £50 odd quid and not watched any form of entertainment, regardless of whether Derby would have won, drawn or lost? What a ludicrous analogy. Done attempting any sort of reasonable debate if this is the level you're thinking is at... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said: What a ludicrous analogy. Done attempting any sort of reasonable debate if this is the level you're thinking is at... Ummm. How about both teams sitting on the floor for 90 minutes and the game finishes 0-0? About as entertaining as the long-ball drivel we served up against Villa in that first-half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Bris Vegas said: Ummm. How about both teams sitting on the floor for 90 minutes and the game finishes 0-0? About as entertaining as the long-ball drivel we served up against Villa in that first-half. Nobody is saying the first half at Villa was good enough so stop exaggerating ffs. We had about 8 months of playing great gung ho all attack football under Mac. It fell apart when we lost our two most crucial players for the system. Since then it hasn't worked, we were found out and weren't good enough to play our game when the opposition knew what to expect. Please stop acting like that is the only football that can be enjoyed. I'll point back to Atleti, do you not enjoy watching them because it isn't all tip tap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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