Jacob Butterfield appreciation thread. Sponsored by Warren Hobhead

[Warren Hobhead]

He's second in davenport's player ratings for the season thingamijig. 

 

He's my player of the season so far. I just wish he was played further forward where he can hurt teams. As we've seen. 

[uttoxram75]

5 minutes ago, Warren Hobhead said:

He's second in davenport's player ratings for the season thingamijig. 

 

He's my player of the season so far. I just wish he was played further forward where he can hurt teams. As we've seen. 

You could say the same about Bryson and Hendrick.

Jacob looks a decent player, not seen enough of him yet to say he's a step up from Craig or Jeff, although you could argue he's a slightly different type of player.

Who ever plays (out of those three) you need them in or around the penalty box not the centre circle.

I'd love to see a fully fit duo of George and Will with either one of Jacob, Jeff or Craig making runs into the box.

[England Ram]

Top top player. 

My player of the season. 

And I don't get those saying he doesn't show for the ball. 99% of the time he is the only one creating space and moving to receive a ball. Everyone else is static or hiding. 

Play him further forward and we will see an even better player. 

[Chris Mills]

35 minutes ago, VulcanRam said:

Why, is that your name? 

Yep. Chris Mills is just my alter ego

[Ninos]

2 hours ago, valleyram said:

Ninos you talk too much sense m8 

I noticed we disagree on one thing : I like Bryson more than you  I'll give my reasons another day. Although having said that, oft injured Thorne is the best player on the team followed by Hughes and Bryson. Christie and Johnson next. 

[Ninos]

1 hour ago, England Ram said:

Top top player. 

My player of the season. 

And I don't get those saying he doesn't show for the ball. 99% of the time he is the only one creating space and moving to receive a ball. Everyone else is static or hiding. 

Play him further forward and we will see an even better player. 

I can see why he's liked but there's a reason he keeps getting dropped. Watch closely next game how he moves off the ball especially after he makes a pass.  He will show now and then and make a good run now and then but he shuts off a lot too. And he really is weak in the tackle. Those are major differences with him and Will. Will is far more clever, more skilful, a ball winner, and is always on the move. He's decent. 

Player of the season so far would be Keogh Christie or Thorne. 

[DcFc Dyycheee]

I like Butterfield a lot.

The fact Johnson gets in ahead of him makes me want to rip my eyes out.

[Rev]

Above average Championship midfielder, nothing more or less.

[Warren Hobhead]

46 minutes ago, Ninos said:

I can see why he's liked but there's a reason he keeps getting dropped. Watch closely next game how he moves off the ball especially after he makes a pass.  He will show now and then and make a good run now and then but he shuts off a lot too. And he really is weak in the tackle. Those are major differences with him and Will. Will is far more clever, more skilful, a ball winner, and is always on the move. He's decent. 

Player of the season so far would be Keogh Christie or Thorne. 

Him getting dropped has worked a treat.

 

Butterfield - 1.4 successful tackles per game, 1.2 successful interceptions per game. 

Hendrick - 0.8 successful tackles per game, 0.7 successful interceptions per game. 

Bryson - 0.4 successful tackles per game, 0 successful interceptions per game. 

Johnson - 1.9 successful tackles per game, 1.7 successful interceptions per game. 

Thorne - 3.1 successful tackles per game, 1.8 successful interceptions per game. 

 

 

So in other words, the 'defensive, holding' midfielder is better defensively. And Johnson, the big, physical lad is second best, but not much better than blatant attacking midfielder, Butterfield. Who is much better defensively, or as you put it, 'in the tackle' than Bryson and Hendrick. I accept Bryson has missed much of the season but I would still back Butterfield over him in any defensive situation. 

This by the way isn't me suggesting Butters is a great defender. Because he isn't. But I'm refuting your suggestion that he's 'really weak' in the tackle when my eyes and the stats say otherwise. Were he played further up where he has for previous clubs he'd have worse stats. Because he'd be creating and scoring rather than sat deep having to clean up proper defenders' mistakes. 

 

 

He also has 85% pass accuracy. The same as Thorne, and better than Bryson and Hendrick and much better than Johnson with his 75%. 

 

He has 7 goals this season. That's 4 more than Johnson, 6 more than Hendrick and Bryson. Again, I appreciate Bryson's lack of games. 

 

I'm not in the business of comparing him with Will because Will's not here playing. I hope he comes back something like the player he once was. I think he, Butterfield and a fit Thorne would link well together. 

 

But considering the outlay on certain players this last year or so and considering how highly lauded the likes of Jeff and Bryson are by many (including Radio Derby), it's mine and many others' opinion that Butterfield has been a great acquisition and it's also foolish to ignore him or play him as a defence first midfielder. 

 

The thing you say about him not showing for the ball is ridiculous. I don't think I've ever seen him not asking for the ball. It's all he does when not in possession. Forever has his hands pointing to where he wants it. Unfortunately we have so many players who unlike Butters play with their heads down and take far too long to make decisions, hence they go backwards with it and ignore proper footballers. 

 

If you don't appreciate his qualities and instead focus on what he can't do, you're doing football wrong. 

 

 

Other than that, you're totally correct.  It's an opinions game and mine is no better than yours or next mans.

 

All stats are from WhoScored.com.

[Ninos]

4 minutes ago, Warren Hobhead said:

Him getting dropped has worked a treat.

 

Butterfield - 1.4 successful tackles per game, 1.2 successful interceptions per game. 

Hendrick - 0.8 successful tackles per game, 0.7 successful interceptions per game. 

Bryson - 0.4 successful tackles per game, 0 successful interceptions per game. 

Johnson - 1.9 successful tackles per game, 1.7 successful interceptions per game. 

Thorne - 3.1 successful tackles per game, 1.8 successful interceptions per game. 

 

 

So in other words, the 'defensive, holding' midfielder is better defensively. And Johnson, the big, physical lad is second best, but not much better than blatant attacking midfielder, Butterfield. Who is much better defensively, or as you put it, 'in the tackle' than Bryson and Hendrick. I accept Bryson has missed much of the season but I would still back Butterfield over him in any defensive situation. 

This by the way isn't me suggesting Butters is a great defender. Because he isn't. But I'm refuting your suggestion that he's 'really weak' in the tackle when my eyes and the stats say otherwise. Were he played further up where he has for previous clubs he'd have worse stats. Because he'd be creating and scoring rather than sat deep having to clean up proper defenders' mistakes. 

 

 

He also has 85% pass accuracy. The same as Thorne, and better than Bryson and Hendrick and much better than Johnson with his 75%. 

 

He has 7 goals this season. That's 4 more than Johnson, 6 more than Hendrick and Bryson. Again, I appreciate Bryson's lack of games. 

 

I'm not in the business of comparing him with Will because Will's not here playing. I hope he comes back something like the player he once was. I think he, Butterfield and a fit Thorne would link well together. 

 

But considering the outlay on certain players this last year or so and considering how highly lauded the likes of Jeff and Bryson are by many (including Radio Derby), it's mine and many others' opinion that Butterfield has been a great acquisition and it's also foolish to ignore him or play him as a defence first midfielder. 

 

The thing you say about him not showing for the ball is ridiculous. I don't think I've ever seen him not asking for the ball. It's all he does when not in possession. Forever has his hands pointing to where he wants it. Unfortunately we have so many players who unlike Butters play with their heads down and take far too long to make decisions, hence they go backwards with it and ignore proper footballers. 

 

If you don't appreciate his qualities and instead focus on what he can't do, you're doing football wrong. 

 

 

Other than that, you're totally correct.  It's an opinions game and mine is no better than yours or next mans.

 

All stats are from WhoScored.com.

That's an excellent rebuttal warren and ill concede that he's a step above hendrick and I'm not disappointed to see him out there, he's a good player. I just don't think he's a shining star on the team. But I appreciate the stats you present here and I hope he keeps getting better. 

[Warren Hobhead]

2 minutes ago, Ninos said:

That's an excellent rebuttal warren and ill concede that he's a step above hendrick and I'm not disappointed to see him out there, he's a good player. I just don't think he's a shining star on the team. But I appreciate the stats you present here and I hope he keeps getting better. 

Noooooooooooo! 

 

You were supposed to get all shirty and argue.  

 

I really rate him. Not sure if I've mentioned it. I do see weak areas of his game too, but he's the first player I'd pick if I was in charge. Someone said something about other clubs building around him. It might be an idea, rather than trying to get the best - but failing - out of Martin. Only so long you can keep flogging that one.

[Ninos]

1 hour ago, Warren Hobhead said:

Noooooooooooo! 

 

You were supposed to get all shirty and argue.  

 

I really rate him. Not sure if I've mentioned it. I do see weak areas of his game too, but he's the first player I'd pick if I was in charge. Someone said something about other clubs building around him. It might be an idea, rather than trying to get the best - but failing - out of Martin. Only so long you can keep flogging that one.

There is a point and I think Valleyram touches upon it when he talks Bryson making Martin click - do you think Butterfield makes Martin better or would we do better offensively with Butterfield + Blackman/bent ? If you rate him so well which forward and wide players work best with him in your view ? 

[Mostyn6]

@Warren Hobhead we tend to ignore @Ninos and @valleyram as they both have an agenda.

The way I see it is the team is playing at 50% of it's potential, and that's being kind. IN previous seasons, we have seen the best of Bryson and Hendrick, but we haven't seen the best of anyone this season. If the Butterfield we've seen this season is at 50% in a poorly motivated and organised team, then his potential is clearly better than the rest. His 50% is not far off some of the others' 90%!

[davenportram]

12 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

@Warren Hobhead we tend to ignore @Ninos and @valleyram as they both have an agenda.

Is that the royal we?

[Mostyn6]

21 minutes ago, davenportram said:

Is that the royal we?

I think one knows the answer to that.

[cannable]

More to come from him, me thinks. Apparently Powell never did fitness work at Huddersfield and so that's what Wagner had them doing as soon as he got there. Perhaps Butterfield isn't totally fit? This can be substantiated by the fact that he's only completed the full 90 for us nine times. As well as more energy we could probably get another yard of pace out of him.

He's very little movement to work with, he himself is too deep and the opposition often sit deep and stay compact, so hasn't been able to regularly make those incisive passes that cut teams apart. We know he's capable of them having seen him execute them regularly for Huddersfield and twice for us, against MK Dons and then Rotherham.

[Warren Hobhead]

9 hours ago, Ninos said:

There is a point and I think Valleyram touches upon it when he talks Bryson making Martin click - do you think Butterfield makes Martin better or would we do better offensively with Butterfield + Blackman/bent ? If you rate him so well which forward and wide players work best with him in your view ? 

I think to retain Martin in that one up top role, we need players around him. So to have two midfielders sat in front of the back four is a huge no no. Clement loved that, even at home against struggling sides. On the rare occasions he allowed Butterfield or Ince to play closer to the striker, we were rewarded. The games against Rotherham and Bristol spring to mind. Away from home too, I don't see a need for two deep-lying midfielders. At Hull we had just Thorne there, with Butterfield and Hendrick allowed to bomb on. Whereas, remember Wednesday away? Practically all three midfielders sat on halfway. Same at Boro. And don't get me started on Man Utd at the iPro. That was the last straw for me that night with Clement. The midfielders were like centre backs. 

 

Of course, it might be the players themselves choosing to sit deep like that. But I doubt it. 

 

To answer your question I'd play the diamond. 

 

Carson; Christie, Keogh, Shackell, Olsson; Thorne, Butterfield, Bryson, Hendrick; Ince, Martin. 

 

I'd have Thorne at the base, Hendrick at the point, with Butters slightly left, Bryson slightly right. Ince behind Martin, given license to roam. Fullbacks providing width which isn't any different to how it's been all season anyway. I really like Warnock so wouldn't be bothered who starts between him and Olsson. But that for me is our best side (Hughes in for Bryson when he's fit) and in a system/shape that ought to get the best from each player. 

 

Confidence is massive though. Not seeing much from any player in our squad right now.

[Warren Hobhead]

4 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

@Warren Hobhead we tend to ignore @Ninos and @valleyram as they both have an agenda.

The way I see it is the team is playing at 50% of it's potential, and that's being kind. IN previous seasons, we have seen the best of Bryson and Hendrick, but we haven't seen the best of anyone this season. If the Butterfield we've seen this season is at 50% in a poorly motivated and organised team, then his potential is clearly better than the rest. His 50% is not far off some of the others' 90%!

I've not seen him regularly at other clubs so I can only judge him on his Rams games, but considering he was lauded by Huddersfield fans as one of the best players they've ever seen, I'm assuming he was at 100% for them. I know he didn't play deep for them, nor did he play deep for Barnsley where he was once touted as a future England playmaker, the 'next Gazza' I saw it said in one article recently. 

 

So yes I reckon he's playing well below his potential. But still been our most consistent player this season, barring defenders. If he can get towards playing at full tilt, 100%, I'd love him even more. He has to be selected first though..

[Warren Hobhead]

2 hours ago, cannable said:

More to come from him, me thinks. Apparently Powell never did fitness work at Huddersfield and so that's what Wagner had them doing as soon as he got there. Perhaps Butterfield isn't totally fit? This can be substantiated by the fact that he's only completed the full 90 for us nine times. As well as more energy we could probably get another yard of pace out of him.

He's very little movement to work with, he himself is too deep and the opposition often sit deep and stay compact, so hasn't been able to regularly make those incisive passes that cut teams apart. We know he's capable of them having seen him execute them regularly for Huddersfield and twice for us, against MK Dons and then Rotherham.

I wouldn't give much credit to that rumour regards fitness at Huddersfield. Whenever a manager leaves you get the new one saying they weren't fit enough, etc etc. Haven't we just got shut of a fitness coach? As I say, I'll take that with a pinch of salt. I think Butters' fitness levels are fine. As for pace, I don't think at 25 he's going to get any quicker. Not really sure he needs to either. Ok he's not rapid, but compared to the rest of the team he's hardly a snail is he? The likes of Weimann, Ince and Russell are supposedly quick. But their feet aren't, or their brains aren't. Butterfield and Thorne are both slower I suppose, but so far ahead of the rest of the squad in terms of their thinking and technical abilities. 

 

His passing for me is good enough, but he's not created as much as I expected he would do having seen videos of him for other clubs. Again I can only assume it's playing him so deep that scuppers that. And to be honest he's laid a few on a plate for others this season who missed the chances. Or he's been key to a goal, but not been the one to make the final assisted pass. The game where he dispossessed an opponent on halfway up the sideline, then ran and ran until he laid someone in for them to set up the goal. My memory is failing me. Can't recall the opponent or goalscorer.

[cannable]

@Warren Hobhead (I'm not sure it's tagged you properly) - just a few revised statistics. I've set the parameters to show tackles per 90 minutes s opposed to per game as yours would have been a little skew whiff as substitutions would have effected the stats you posted, especially in the case of Bryson. 

R		Player	CM	KG	Apps	Mins	TotalTackles	DribbledPast	TotalAttemptedTackles	Rating
1		George Thorne23, DMC	188	83	22	1795	3.5	1.3	4.8	7.34
2		Bradley Johnson28, M(CL)	178	68	22	1924	2.1	1.2	3.3	7.02
3		Jacob Butterfield25, M(C)	180	77	19	1516	2	0.7	2.7	7.16
4		Chris Baird33, D(CLR),DMC	185	74	4	315	1.7	0.3	2	6.69
5		Jeff Hendrick24, DMC	185	79	15	1166	1.2	0.3	1.5	6.78
6		Craig Bryson29, M(C)	170	60	3	150	1.2	-	1.2	6.57
7		Jamie Hanson20, M(C)	190	79	3	212	0.4	-	0.4	6.59
8		Will Hughes20, AM(C)	185	74	1	33	-	-	-	6.06

Also worth comparing his passing statistic to those of when he was at Huddersfield. His passing's clearly safer with us. If given a licence to attempt more risky passes he'd create over twice as many chance a game. 

Season	Team	Tournament	Apps	Mins	Assists	KeyP	AvgP	PS%	Crosses	LongB	ThrB	Rating
2015/2016	Huddersfield	EC	5	440	-	2	60	81.7	1.2	4.2	0.2	7.30
2015/2016	Derby	EC	19(6)	1649	1	1	38.9	85.7	0.6	2.3	-	6.94
2014/2015	Huddersfield	EC	45	4041	8	2.7	48.7	77.3	2.2	4.1	0.2	7.25

Tournament	Apps	Mins	Total	AccLB	InAccLB	AccSP	InAccSP	Rating
Championship Huddersfield	5	440	61.4	4.3	4.5	45.8	6.7	7.30
Championship	25	1649	53.1	3.2	2.6	42.3	5	6.94

 

Regarding his fitness, it was revealed the Huddersfield player weren't fit enough at a Q&A event so I doubt it would be a lie. Here's the link but you need to make an account to read it I'd post the section about Butterfield but it's libelous. haha! http://spiritofthecowshed.proboards.com/thread/107/overview-last-nights