Wayne Rooney

[Sexydadbod]

You're ignoring my point. I forgot bottom half sides competed in Europe. The overall quality of the Premier League is the best in the world. 

Dont get me started on UEFA rankings. Wales are ranked 2nd in the UEFA rankings. 2nd best side in the Europe? 

 Firstly wales are second in the FIFA rankings, not UEFA rankings. The uefa rankings are actually legitimate and takes into account how well teams from each of the leagues have done in the last 5 years of european competitions.

[Sexydadbod]

since 2005, England has 8 had finalists in the Champions league, Spain has had 6.

why compare from 10 years ago, why not compare now? It's the same principle with rooney, people still think he is world class because of his performances from 10 years ago, not now

[Sexydadbod]

Let's not transform this into a league arguement, it's about rooney

[Mostyn6]

why compare from 10 years ago, why not compare now? It's the same principle with rooney, people still think he is world class because of his performances from 10 years ago, not now

because we are comparing during Rooney's time as a footballer. 

Why not compare Benzema's scoring for France in the qualifiers to Rooney's? Bearing in mind Rooney has scored in 7 successive games, and France have already qualified, it would be unreasonable to compare, but hey-ho, if the glove fits.

 

[RLACML]

since 2005, England has 8 had finalists in the Champions league, Spain has had 6.

Given they were discussing the last 2/3 seasons, it's probably fairer to compare the records over that time. Not that I want to get involved in this particular thing, just saying. 

Champions League - 3-0 Spain

Europa League - 2-1 Spain

[North_Stand_Ram]

 Firstly wales are second in the FIFA rankings, not UEFA rankings. The uefa rankings are actually legitimate and takes into account how well teams from each of the leagues have done in the last 5 years of european competitions.

Wales are 2nd in the UEFA Coeffiecent rankings mate, which will be used to create the pots for the Euro's draw. That's why finishing 1st/2nd this year in the qualifying is irrelevant 

[Alph]

He's scored more than Benzema. 

Just going back and forth now. 

Finally from me, for a player that's either never been world class or isn't world class it's not bad that his goal scoring record is better than most the names put forward outside of the obvious special players who are the best of not just this generation but are up there as all time. His goal scoring record alone matches up to many of the world's best forwards.

The criteria has changed so many times. From whether he scores against the top fifa ranked sides (which he has done before they were replaced by Wales) to why his World Cup record is so underwhelming, a bit like Messi's for a player of his calibre) 

It's been how many goals you can score in a season (as he's rarely above 20) yet he's still scored 250 club goals which is more than players who have had 20+ goals).

Its been about "is he a natural finisher'... well he's perhaps not the poacher that Lineker was but he's still scored 300 goals which is a number many envy.

It's been about what he offers in assists too.

He can't be a poacher and a playmaker at the same time. 

What he is, a brilliant all round forward who can be compared to the best of his generation and England's all time top scorer. He can play as a midfielder. He can play in a 2 or a 3. He can do pretty much everything. He's played and scored on the real toughest stage, The Champions League. 

Unless you chuck legends like Messi at him he stands up pretty well. Messi and Ronaldo are freaks. They aren't typical top end forwards. 

If World class is being comparable to the very best players in your position then he's world class. And we've seen 4 or 5 different criteria to judge him.

Isn't Klose the world cup top scorer of all time? At any point would anyone have him in their dream 11 of the last 10 years? Over Raul? Ronaldo? Henry? 

[Sexydadbod]

because we are comparing during Rooney's time as a footballer. 

Why not compare Benzema's scoring for France in the qualifiers to Rooney's? Bearing in mind Rooney has scored in 7 successive games, and France have already qualified, it would be unreasonable to compare, but hey-ho, if the glove fits.

 

Because they didn't have to go through qualifiers........

[Cam the Ram]

Given they were discussing the last 2/3 seasons, it's probably fairer to compare the records over that time. Not that I want to get involved in this particular thing, just saying. 

Champions League - 3-0 Spain

Europa League - 2-1 Spain

DerbyEnglandLoyal, is that you!? 

[North_Stand_Ram]

If you don't mind me asking rammyboy, could you type a list of players you deem to be world class, excluding the obvious names? 

[RLACML]

DerbyEnglandLoyal, is that you!? 

That would be some twist.

[Cam the Ram]

That would be some twist.

I've never seen RLACML and DEL in a room at the same time LOL #JustSaying

[Mostyn6]

Because they didn't have to go through qualifiers........

yes, I know, I said that in the second sentence that it wouldn't be a fair comparison. 

[Duracell]

2. Arrogance? There's no arrogance about it. The Premier league as a "division" is the best by an absolute mile. That's because TV expenditure is spread out equally between every side. 

What about the Bundesliga? I went to Hertha vs Werder Bremen the other week. The players themselves were slower and less physical than in the Premier League, but the ball moved much quicker, and I barely saw a misplaced pass from either side - both of them trying to play through each other but having a turn of pace on the wings if needed. Hertha are a firm mid-table side and the Bremen fans I spoke to on the S-Bahn on the way to the game didn't think they'll be up to much this season either - but this game was so clearly of a higher quality than say West Brom vs Crystal Palace.

 It was a similar style to the national side, which is miles ahead of ours, and it only went to further enhance my view that the money in the English game isn't just hurting the national side, it's hurting our club sides too. Premier League sides have this "**** it, it's only money" attitude to signing players, and just seem to go for whoever seems to be flavour of the month. A 14 year old kid could have come up with exactly the same transfer policy as Tottenham since they sold Bale. West Brom signed Brown Ideye for over £10m when the manager had never seen anything more than video clips. Liverpool triws to play pass-and-move football and then signws the world's most immobile striker in Balotelli. Newcastle continue to sign a tonne of French players who just run into things.

Bundesliga is still a wealthy league but clubs have to actually think about who they're signing, and they actually build sides. This thinking in England that "more money = better football" isn't helping us at all - it's a lie fed to us by Sky which we all lap up. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest the Premier League is the best league in Europe "by an absolute mile" in terms of on-field results in recent seasons.

[Sexydadbod]

If you don't mind me asking rammyboy, could you type a list of players you deem to be world class, excluding the obvious names? 

As in forwards and attacking midfielders?

Bale, Neymar,Robben,Benzema,Lewandowski,Suarez, Aguero,James Rodriguez, Silva,Hazard,Sanchez,Muller, Ibrahimovic, Tevez, Reus, Di Maria. Iniesta,Modric,Kroos,Rakitic. That's all I can think of at the minute

[Cam the Ram]

As in forwards and attacking midfielders?

Bale, Neymar,Robben,Benzema,Lewandowski,Suarez, Aguero,James Rodriguez, Silva,Hazard,Sanchez,Muller, Ibrahimovic, Tevez, Reus, Di Maria. Iniesta,Modric,Kroos,Rakitic. That's all I can think of at the minute

Agree with all of those but I'm shocked you're willing to call those highlighted world class but not Rooney

[North_Stand_Ram]

What about the Bundesliga? I went to Hertha vs Werder Bremen the other week. The players themselves were slower and less physical than in the Premier League, but the ball moved much quicker, and I barely saw a misplaced pass from either side - both of them trying to play through each other but having a turn of pace on the wings if needed. Hertha are a firm mid-table side and the Bremen fans I spoke to on the S-Bahn on the way to the game didn't think they'll be up to much this season either - but this game was so clearly of a higher quality than say West Brom vs Crystal Palace.

 It was a similar style to the national side, which is miles ahead of ours, and it only went to further enhance my view that the money in the English game isn't just hurting the national side, it's hurting our club sides too. Premier League sides have this "**** it, it's only money" attitude to signing players, and just seem to go for whoever seems to be flavour of the month. A 14 year old kid could have come up with exactly the same transfer policy as Tottenham since they sold Bale. West Brom signed Brown Ideye for over £10m when the manager had never seen anything more than video clips. Liverpool triws to play pass-and-move football and then signws the world's most immobile striker in Balotelli. Newcastle continue to sign a tonne of French players who just run into things.

Bundesliga is still a wealthy league but clubs have to actually think about who they're signing, and they actually build sides. This thinking in England that "more money = better football" isn't helping us at all - it's a lie fed to us by Sky which we all lap up. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest the Premier League is the best league in Europe "by an absolute mile" in terms of on-field results in recent seasons.

I went to watch Dortmund about a year ago and the football was very enjoyable. I don't really watch La Liga, so unlike Rammyboy I'm probably less inclined to comment, minus my opinion, but I do really enjoy watching the Bundesliga when I can. I usually watch Bundlesiga highlights on a Monday and it's great. Although, I do feel the BPL is of a higher overall standard, for pure entertainment value, the Bundesliga is right up there (although the less I say about the defending in that league, the better...) 

[Sexydadbod]

DerbyEnglandLoyal, is that you!? 

Don't let him hear you that, DEL hates him 

[Sexydadbod]

He's scored more than Benzema. 

Just going back and forth now. 

Finally from me, for a player that's either never been world class or isn't world class it's not bad that his goal scoring record is better than most the names put forward outside of the obvious special players who are the best of not just this generation but are up there as all time. His goal scoring record alone matches up to many of the world's best forwards.

The criteria has changed so many times. From whether he scores against the top fifa ranked sides (which he has done before they were replaced by Wales) to why his World Cup record is so underwhelming, a bit like Messi's for a player of his calibre) 

It's been how many goals you can score in a season (as he's rarely above 20) yet he's still scored 250 club goals which is more than players who have had 20+ goals).

Its been about "is he a natural finisher'... well he's perhaps not the poacher that Lineker was but he's still scored 300 goals which is a number many envy.

It's been about what he offers in assists too.

He can't be a poacher and a playmaker at the same time. 

What he is, a brilliant all round forward who can be compared to the best of his generation and England's all time top scorer. He can play as a midfielder. He can play in a 2 or a 3. He can do pretty much everything. He's played and scored on the real toughest stage, The Champions League. 

Unless you chuck legends like Messi at him he stands up pretty well. Messi and Ronaldo are freaks. They aren't typical top end forwards. 

If World class is being comparable to the very best players in your position then he's world class. And we've seen 4 or 5 different criteria to judge him.

Isn't Klose the world cup top scorer of all time? At any point would anyone have him in their dream 11 of the last 10 years? Over Raul? Ronaldo? Henry? 

I'm not saying that he is has never seen world class. I'd take a prime rooney over a prime benzema every day of the week but at the moment Benzema is a better player in my opinion

[North_Stand_Ram]

As in forwards and attacking midfielders?

Bale, Neymar,Robben,Benzema,Lewandowski,Suarez, Aguero,James Rodriguez, Silva,Hazard,Sanchez,Muller, Ibrahimovic, Tevez, Reus, Di Maria. Iniesta,Modric,Kroos,Rakitic. That's all I can think of at the minute

Would you not consider Rooney in that list? I'd probably agree with you 100%, but I suppose our differing opinions on Rooney mean that I'd have him in there and you wouldn't :)