The "Incredible Backing" myth

[Bridgford Ram]

 

Thorne - fringe player, undoubted quality and hopefully will prove to be a good signing if he stays uninjured. Good backing. but as a signing, about on part with previous summer signings Keogh, Sammon, Shackell etc in terms of finance.

 

I'm glad I spotted the comments about Thorne before I read the rest of the opening post.  Made me realise it was either just designed to stir and get a response or ill informed nonsense.  Saved myself a couple of minutes.  A fringe player?  Really?  Is there anyone who thought he was a fringe player when signed?  And I believed the value of his transfer to be £2m plus potentially even close to our record signing.  Where as the three transfers were between £750k and £1m weren't they?

[eddie]

​Our outlay on transfers/retention last summer alone was £6m+. We then went on to sign even more big players on loan and permanently in January. We retained players who were at the time key. This idea that we haven't received backing this season is absolutely barmy. People seem to forget the countless talented players we signed for the development squad. 

​Any player retained is hardly a new signing. The opposite is a Blackpool-type meltdown.

[Mostyn6]

I'm glad I spotted the comments about Thorne before I read the rest of the opening post.  Made me realise it was either just designed to stir and get a response or ill informed nonsense.  Saved myself a couple of minutes.  A fringe player?  Really?  Is there anyone who thought he was a fringe player when signed?  And I believed the value of his transfer to be £2m plus potentially even close to our record signing.  Where as the three transfers were between £750k and £1m weren't they?

​I don't mean down to the exact penny, but every season we sign one player around the £1.5m - £2m mark, and he is the one.

[ronnieronalde]

​I don't mean down to the exact penny, but every season we sign one player around the £1.5m - £2m mark, and he is the one.

​that's an exaggeration mostyn and i'm fairly sure you know that.

Before Sammon came in at 1.2m the marquis signings were barker and shackell at 900k each.

There was a little bit of talk about keogh being 1.5.

That's no even close to every season signing a player for "close" to 1.5-2m.

[CheltenhamRam]

Good post overall. We haven't gone bananas but clearly there's been a sensible level of investment into the playing staff whether it's 5m or 7m. I wouldn't compare the spend to idiocy like Rhodes and McCormack. 

[davenportram]

​GREAT.

 

perhaps you should learn to read. I did say probably (not definitely) and I did say transfer fees (not loan fees).

Nope you said transfer spend = which to many includes loans and seeing as you listed loans in your post about the backing MAC had received a fair assumption you included them in the sweeping generalisation

 

Anyway, answer my question? Is the backing "incredible", in fact, why not check your oxford dictionary for the definition.

​Well in your original post you put this line in

 

I had hoped this coming summer be the one where they say "right, we need to spend £8m on the spine of the team".

One might think that you though £8m would be incredible backing as you think that is what the spine of the tema needs to be spent on. Obviously this was before you were aware of how much had been spent "being cute" in the trnasfer window.

 

Personally I think its incredible when you consider he spent more (NET) in one window than the previous manager spent in 4 years (again thats thanks to ramblurs work on the finances)

[Rev]

I started a similar thread in January, after the accounts came out it was clear, to me at least, Thorne must have been our record signing by some distance.

Whatever word you use to describe the owners investment on the playing front, it seems to be very near the limit of FFP regardless, so can't see what else they could have done.

[G STAR RAM]

​not at all, where have I suggested that? I was talking about YOUR comment, there was nothing factual that I could see that highlighted I was wrong. That's not to say I wasn't speculating wrong, and yes, I was £1.7m wrong. I'm sorry, shoot me.

My point is either going over your head, or your argument is so weak that you're arguing the irrelevant bits! It's not whether the investment was £5m or £6.7m, it's the fact that it's NOT "incredible" backing, and it isn't the type of backing that you're be expecting some sort of table-topping team as a result of.

Do you think that this team has been "incredibly backed"? 

So you think being £1.7m (or roughly 33%) out on an estimate is irrelevant?

Has the team been incredibly backed? In the grand scheme of things maybe not but, in relation to any other DCFC transfer windows, yes I believe he has.

If league positions were decided on transfer fees and wages then we are probably in the right position but then surely that would mean all of this talk of McClaren being a great coach is all hot air?

[Mostyn6]

​that's an exaggeration mostyn and i'm fairly sure you know that.

Before Sammon came in at 1.2m the marquis signings were barker and shackell at 900k each.

There was a little bit of talk about keogh being 1.5.

That's no even close to every season signing a player for "close" to 1.5-2m.

​as far as I know, Shackell was £1.5m and Keogh a bit more. But one subsidised the other.

[davenportram]

​Clough total Net spend £6.5m

 

Maclaren Summer 2014 net spend £6.5m

 

 

 

[i-Ram]

​And all of those managers got the sack when they failed, having spent a lot of money. And none of those are the norm either. You've picked out astronomical examples. We've spent more than most clubs do.

It might be smaller than Jupiter, but Neptune is pretty big, you know?

... And what size is Uranus?

[Uptherams]

​Whoaaaa there. I never said anything about him not receiving backing. You need to pay attention to what I actually write before arguing with me. The key thing I am saying is that the backing was not INCREDIBLE. 

​The figure will be approaching net £10m for the season. For a championship side without parachute payments. That is incredible. 

[Uptherams]

I started a similar thread in January, after the accounts came out it was clear, to me at least, Thorne must have been our record signing by some distance.

Whatever word you use to describe the owners investment on the playing front, it seems to be very near the limit of FFP regardless, so can't see what else they could have done.

​I think he cost us £3m. People need to understand that when a player comes to a club they don't sign for free even if it is stated as free. The club sometimes pays compensation. They have to pay agent fees and also typically a signing on fee. We signed a lot of players last summer that people think came here for free. It all adds up. Our loan signings also were not free. 

[ramblur]

Impossible to say what any of them cost,but it looks to me that GT may have been at the upper end of guesses,so you might be right (may even have been a bit more)

[Rev]

​I think he cost us £3m. People need to understand that when a player comes to a club they don't sign for free even if it is stated as free. The club sometimes pays compensation. They have to pay agent fees and also typically a signing on fee. We signed a lot of players last summer that people think came here for free. It all adds up. Our loan signings also were not free. 

As I understand it, the loans aren't included in the 6.77million post balance sheet figure, just permanent purchases made in the summer transfer window. Even if they included Shotton, who it's believed signed on loan with a guaranteed perm to follow, and allowing for the U21 purchases, thats a lot of cash on 3? 1st teamers,  Christie, Shotton and Thorne.

I thought I read somewhere Christie was 300k including add ons, Shotton around 500k, which just leaves GT and the kids.

Double those fees for the add ons(highly unlikely), add a generous million for the kids, still leaves north of 4 million for Thorne, hence I think he was a record signing.

[McMuffin]

​Clough total Net spend £6.5m

 

Maclaren Summer 2014 net spend £6.5m

 

 

 

Who's Clough?

[sage]

I've read in about 50 threads over the last few weeks that McClaren should've done better after the "incredible backing" he's apparently had, and the "amazing squad" which should've won the league.

This whole theory is wrong, so absolutely wrong. Whilst the quality of loans has improved under McClaren, I doubt very much the increase in investment has been that spectacular.

Permanent signings for the first team:-

Shotton - fringe player, bargain. Hardly someone you'd be jealous about if Forest signed him

Christie - young lad from the division below, again, hardly a ground breaking signing.

Thorne - fringe player, undoubted quality and hopefully will prove to be a good signing if he stays uninjured. Good backing. but as a signing, about on part with previous summer signings Keogh, Sammon, Shackell etc in terms of finance.

Warnock - free transfer, to shore up the squad, perhaps not used enough, but hardly a wallet-busting transfer.

Albentosa - pretty cheap. Bought in January with next season in mind.

 

Loan signings.

Mascarell - young kid. Hardly a financial burden

Ibe - young kid on youth contract. Cheap as chips on youth wage.

Ince - Already been on loan in this division, at a club that finished below Derby. Maybe a decent wage, maybe less than people think though.

Best - cover and small wage. Hardly incredible backing by sanctioning this.

Bent - Already been at Brighton on loan, don't believe this loan was as expensive as people make out. Aston Villa had to get some of his wage off the bill. No way Derby are paying anything more than £20k of it (so I hear), but on balance, decent backing, but nothing groundbreaking for this division.

===========================================================

As I say, there's nothing in that list that anyone can say is incredible in terms of financial backing. If anything, this highlights the fact we are still shopping in the bargain basement. Bournemouth were willing to pay £5m for Gray from Birmingham, which would probably have exceeded our whole transfer spend under McClaren.

I think the club tried to be cute in the transfer market and it backfired. McClaren COULD have had a great bargaining tool with the owners if the fans had reacted so hysterically to the Newcastle ******, but now he hasn't got that. I had hoped this coming summer be the one where they say "right, we need to spend £8m on the spine of the team".

It's inaccurate that we've spent massively and have the best squad.

​In other words don't slag off McClaren because it makes my slagging of NC look OTT now.

[rammie002]

I completely agree with you. I think SM had a decent and good backing. But not incredible. (Maybe he didn't want to sign more players as he believed in the ones we had and wanted to keep team spirit?)

Anyone who think that 2 permanent players for the first 11 as incredible backing is mistaken, considering one was Christie on a Free/Youth payment. 

I think we did very well to get the loan signings we did, we had alot of them and all very good quality (Not Best..), all of them have impressed and would be welcomed to the squad on a permanent basis. 

But for what I would call 'Incredible backing' this summer I would expect permanent signings of a CB + ST of the calibre of Thorne last season, plus a few smaller editions to squad/u21 and loans. 

[Mostyn6]

​In other words don't slag off McClaren because it makes my slagging of NC look OTT now.

​hahaha. Not quite Sage me owd. The message here is that those that think we should have romped the league because of what is perceived as "incredible backing" are unreasonable.

[Tombo]

... And what size is Uranus?

​Bigger than it was when I first started Uni #experiment