The "Incredible Backing" myth

[Mostyn6]

I've read in about 50 threads over the last few weeks that McClaren should've done better after the "incredible backing" he's apparently had, and the "amazing squad" which should've won the league.

This whole theory is wrong, so absolutely wrong. Whilst the quality of loans has improved under McClaren, I doubt very much the increase in investment has been that spectacular.

Permanent signings for the first team:-

Shotton - fringe player, bargain. Hardly someone you'd be jealous about if Forest signed him

Christie - young lad from the division below, again, hardly a ground breaking signing.

Thorne - fringe player, undoubted quality and hopefully will prove to be a good signing if he stays uninjured. Good backing. but as a signing, about on part with previous summer signings Keogh, Sammon, Shackell etc in terms of finance.

Warnock - free transfer, to shore up the squad, perhaps not used enough, but hardly a wallet-busting transfer.

Albentosa - pretty cheap. Bought in January with next season in mind.

 

Loan signings.

Mascarell - young kid. Hardly a financial burden

Ibe - young kid on youth contract. Cheap as chips on youth wage.

Ince - Already been on loan in this division, at a club that finished below Derby. Maybe a decent wage, maybe less than people think though.

Best - cover and small wage. Hardly incredible backing by sanctioning this.

Bent - Already been at Brighton on loan, don't believe this loan was as expensive as people make out. Aston Villa had to get some of his wage off the bill. No way Derby are paying anything more than £20k of it (so I hear), but on balance, decent backing, but nothing groundbreaking for this division.

===========================================================

As I say, there's nothing in that list that anyone can say is incredible in terms of financial backing. If anything, this highlights the fact we are still shopping in the bargain basement. Bournemouth were willing to pay £5m for Gray from Birmingham, which would probably have exceeded our whole transfer spend under McClaren.

I think the club tried to be cute in the transfer market and it backfired. McClaren COULD have had a great bargaining tool with the owners if the fans had reacted so hysterically to the Newcastle ******, but now he hasn't got that. I had hoped this coming summer be the one where they say "right, we need to spend £8m on the spine of the team".

It's inaccurate that we've spent massively and have the best squad.

[Curtains]

I've read in about 50 threads over the last few weeks that McClaren should've done better after the "incredible backing" he's apparently had, and the "amazing squad" which should've won the league.

This whole theory is wrong, so absolutely wrong. Whilst the quality of loans has improved under McClaren, I doubt very much the increase in investment has been that spectacular.

Permanent signings for the first team:-

Shotton - fringe player, bargain. Hardly someone you'd be jealous about if Forest signed him

Christie - young lad from the division below, again, hardly a ground breaking signing.

Thorne - fringe player, undoubted quality and hopefully will prove to be a good signing if he stays uninjured. Good backing. but as a signing, about on part with previous summer signings Keogh, Sammon, Shackell etc in terms of finance.

Warnock - free transfer, to shore up the squad, perhaps not used enough, but hardly a wallet-busting transfer.

Albentosa - pretty cheap. Bought in January with next season in mind.

 

Loan signings.

Mascarell - young kid. Hardly a financial burden

Ibe - young kid on youth contract. Cheap as chips on youth wage.

Ince - Already been on loan in this division, at a club that finished below Derby. Maybe a decent wage, maybe less than people think though.

Best - cover and small wage. Hardly incredible backing by sanctioning this.

Bent - Already been at Brighton on loan, don't believe this loan was as expensive as people make out. Aston Villa had to make get some of his wage off the bill. No way Derby are paying anything more than £20k of it (so I here), but on balance, decent backing, but nothing groundbreaking for this division.

===========================================================

As I say, there's nothing in that list that anyone can say is incredible in terms of financial backing. If anything, this highlights the fact we are still shopping in the bargain basement. Bournemouth were willing to pay £5m for Gray from Birmingham, which would probably have exceeded our whole transfer fees spent under McClaren.

I think the club tried to be cute in the transfer market and it backfired. McClaren COULD have had a great bargaining tool with the owners if the fans had reacted so hysterically to the Newcastle ******, but now he hasn't got that. I had hoped this coming summer be the one where they say "right, we need to spend £8m on the spine of the team".

It's inaccurate that we've spent massively and have the best squad.

Very good post  Mostyn. 

 

[Leicester Ram]

I agree with the idea that the amount McClaren's been backed is over-exaggerated, but really most of this post is hearsay.

For that reason, I'm not going to give you a like.

[Mostyn6]

I agree with the idea that the amount McClaren's been backed is over-exaggerated, but really most of this post is hearsay.

For that reason, I'm not going to give you a like.

​which bits are hearsay?

[davenportram]

I've read in about 50 threads over the last few weeks that McClaren should've done better after the "incredible backing" he's apparently had, and the "amazing squad" which should've won the league.

This whole theory is wrong, so absolutely wrong. Whilst the quality of loans has improved under McClaren, I doubt very much the increase in investment has been that spectacular.

Permanent signings for the first team:-

Shotton - fringe player, bargain. Hardly someone you'd be jealous about if Forest signed him

Christie - young lad from the division below, again, hardly a ground breaking signing.

Thorne - fringe player, undoubted quality and hopefully will prove to be a good signing if he stays uninjured. Good backing. but as a signing, about on part with previous summer signings Keogh, Sammon, Shackell etc in terms of finance.

Warnock - free transfer, to shore up the squad, perhaps not used enough, but hardly a wallet-busting transfer.

Albentosa - pretty cheap. Bought in January with next season in mind.

 

Loan signings.

Mascarell - young kid. Hardly a financial burden

Ibe - young kid on youth contract. Cheap as chips on youth wage.

Ince - Already been on loan in this division, at a club that finished below Derby. Maybe a decent wage, maybe less than people think though.

Best - cover and small wage. Hardly incredible backing by sanctioning this.

Bent - Already been at Brighton on loan, don't believe this loan was as expensive as people make out. Aston Villa had to get some of his wage off the bill. No way Derby are paying anything more than £20k of it (so I hear), but on balance, decent backing, but nothing groundbreaking for this division.

True youd hope that list you described wouldnt cost the earth and not be a significant use of funds.

===========================================================

As I say, there's nothing in that list that anyone can say is incredible in terms of financial backing. If anything, this highlights the fact we are still shopping in the bargain basement. Bournemouth were willing to pay £5m for Gray from Birmingham, which would probably have exceeded our whole transfer spend under McClaren.

So our total outlay was under £5m would make sense with how you described the player bought.

I think the club tried to be cute in the transfer market and it backfired. McClaren COULD have had a great bargaining tool with the owners if the fans had reacted so hysterically to the Newcastle ******, but now he hasn't got that. I had hoped this coming summer be the one where they say "right, we need to spend £8m on the spine of the team".

It's inaccurate that we've spent massively and have the best squad.

​Yep it must be inaccurate that we spent massive otherwise none would be able to criticise SM. Did you conveniently not read this post from ramblur - or did it slip your mind - http://dcfcfans.uk/topic/18447-derby-county-accounts-1314/?page=5#comment-796818

"Post Balance Sheet Events" show that there were net proceeds on the sale of players' regs of £119,077 and that purchases came in at a staggering £6,777,057,incl League levy and agents' fees. Now normally I'd point out that,because the accounts were signed off in November, this couldn't include the Jan 15 window.However,because of the magnitude of the figure,I'm guessing this was inserted after submission to League for FFP (would have no bearing on 13/14 FFP).

 

All in all,I think a big vote of thanks is in order to our owners (and I withdraw the Q&A question -would be a bit churlish).  

​

thats nearly £7m on the summer signings ignoring the loans and Albentosa.

 

Yep he had hardly any backing at all.

 

 

[ChaddesdenRam]

I've read in about 50 threads over the last few weeks that McClaren should've done better after the "incredible backing" he's apparently had, and the "amazing squad" which should've won the league.

This whole theory is wrong, so absolutely wrong. Whilst the quality of loans has improved under McClaren, I doubt very much the increase in investment has been that spectacular.

Permanent signings for the first team:-

Shotton - fringe player, bargain. Hardly someone you'd be jealous about if Forest signed him

Christie - young lad from the division below, again, hardly a ground breaking signing.

Thorne - fringe player, undoubted quality and hopefully will prove to be a good signing if he stays uninjured. Good backing. but as a signing, about on part with previous summer signings Keogh, Sammon, Shackell etc in terms of finance.

Warnock - free transfer, to shore up the squad, perhaps not used enough, but hardly a wallet-busting transfer.

Albentosa - pretty cheap. Bought in January with next season in mind.

 

Loan signings.

Mascarell - young kid. Hardly a financial burden

Ibe - young kid on youth contract. Cheap as chips on youth wage.

Ince - Already been on loan in this division, at a club that finished below Derby. Maybe a decent wage, maybe less than people think though.

Best - cover and small wage. Hardly incredible backing by sanctioning this.

Bent - Already been at Brighton on loan, don't believe this loan was as expensive as people make out. Aston Villa had to get some of his wage off the bill. No way Derby are paying anything more than £20k of it (so I hear), but on balance, decent backing, but nothing groundbreaking for this division.

===========================================================

As I say, there's nothing in that list that anyone can say is incredible in terms of financial backing. If anything, this highlights the fact we are still shopping in the bargain basement. Bournemouth were willing to pay £5m for Gray from Birmingham, which would probably have exceeded our whole transfer spend under McClaren.

I think the club tried to be cute in the transfer market and it backfired. McClaren COULD have had a great bargaining tool with the owners if the fans had reacted so hysterically to the Newcastle ******, but now he hasn't got that. I had hoped this coming summer be the one where they say "right, we need to spend £8m on the spine of the team".

It's inaccurate that we've spent massively and have the best squad.

I think that is a great assessment Mostyn but if I am critical I would argue the lucrative new deals that they gave out to players like Martin Keogh Grant Bryson Hendrick Hughes Ward Buxton Forsyth are still classed as financial investment even though no transfer fees were paid. 

Also the financial investment in the academy to get us to category 1. The training ground has been expanded a great deal this season. 

[ramLAD]

 

I think the club tried to be cute in the transfer market and it backfired. McClaren COULD have had a great bargaining tool with the owners if the fans had reacted so hysterically to the Newcastle ******, but now he hasn't got that. I had hoped this coming summer be the one where they say "right, we need to spend £8m on the spine of the team".

It's inaccurate that we've spent massively and have the best squad.

​Spot on I reckon

[davenportram]

​Spot on I reckon

​so £6.7m in the summer window is being "cute" and not a significant amount of backing?

[ramLAD]

​so £6.7m in the summer window is being "cute" and not a significant amount of backing?

​Spot on about the club trying to be cute in the fact that there was no massive squad overhaul. The money we spent and the value of our squad in relation to others in the league is minimal and we could have easily spent heavily in what I would consider 'significant backing'.

[davenportram]

so £7m on cheap as chip young players and fringe palyers is being cute? I call it wasteful when those players arent really any better than those we already had.

[Mostyn6]

True youd hope that list you described wouldnt cost the earth and not be a significant use of funds.

So our total outlay was under £5m would make sense with how you described the player bought.

​Yep it must be inaccurate that we spent massive otherwise none would be able to criticise SM. Did you conveniently not read this post from ramblur - or did it slip your mind - http://dcfcfans.uk/topic/18447-derby-county-accounts-1314/?page=5#comment-796818

 

thats nearly £7m on the summer signings ignoring the loans and Albentosa.

 

Yep he had hardly any backing at all.

 

 

​Ramblur's post, to be honest, is not clear to me in terms of the timescales it involved. Also, I made it quite clear in my OP that I was talking about 1st team investment, not the number of signings for the development squad, of which there were quite a few.

If, as one response says, that figure quoted by Ramblur includes new contract payments, then I cannot include that as backing.

£7m is still mediocre IMO.

[ramLAD]

 

[davenportram]

​Ramblur's post, to be honest, is not clear to me in terms of the timescales it involved. Also, I made it quite clear in my OP that I was talking about 1st team investment, not the number of signings for the development squad, of which there were quite a few.

If, as one response says, that figure quoted by Ramblur includes new contract payments, then I cannot include that as backing.

£7m is still mediocre IMO.

​If you actually read all the responses ramblur cleared up the new contract issues as well and it is just on new purchases that totalled £6.77m and the timescale is after the end of the accounting period to when the accounts are signed off - so June 30th to Novemebr I think it was.

How much of that £6.77m do you genuinely think was spent on non first team players. And add in the costs of loans and the winter transfers for the first team.

You do seem to sometimes ignore facts that dont back up your argument

[davenportram]

​

£7m is still mediocre IMO.

​But still significantly more than you thought it was when you claimed we hadnt spent anywhere near £5m in total.

[Leicester Ram]

​which bits are hearsay?

​

I've read in about 50 threads over the last few weeks that McClaren should've done better after the "incredible backing" he's apparently had, and the "amazing squad" which should've won the league.

This whole theory is wrong, so absolutely wrong. Whilst the quality of loans has improved under McClaren, I doubt very much the increase in investment has been that spectacular.

Permanent signings for the first team:-

Shotton - fringe player, bargain. Hardly someone you'd be jealous about if Forest signed him

Christie - young lad from the division below, again, hardly a ground breaking signing.

Thorne - fringe player, undoubted quality and hopefully will prove to be a good signing if he stays uninjured. Good backing. but as a signing, about on part with previous summer signings Keogh, Sammon, Shackell etc in terms of finance.

Warnock - free transfer, to shore up the squad, perhaps not used enough, but hardly a wallet-busting transfer.

Albentosa - pretty cheap. Bought in January with next season in mind.

 

Loan signings.

Mascarell - young kid. Hardly a financial burden

Ibe - young kid on youth contract. Cheap as chips on youth wage.

Ince - Already been on loan in this division, at a club that finished below Derby. Maybe a decent wage, maybe less than people think though.

Best - cover and small wage. Hardly incredible backing by sanctioning this.

Bent - Already been at Brighton on loan, don't believe this loan was as expensive as people make out. Aston Villa had to get some of his wage off the bill. No way Derby are paying anything more than £20k of it (so I hear), but on balance, decent backing, but nothing groundbreaking for this division.

===========================================================

As I say, there's nothing in that list that anyone can say is incredible in terms of financial backing. If anything, this highlights the fact we are still shopping in the bargain basement. Bournemouth were willing to pay £5m for Gray from Birmingham, which would probably have exceeded our whole transfer spend under McClaren.

I think the club tried to be cute in the transfer market and it backfired. McClaren COULD have had a great bargaining tool with the owners if the fans had reacted so hysterically to the Newcastle ******, but now he hasn't got that. I had hoped this coming summer be the one where they say "right, we need to spend £8m on the spine of the team".

It's inaccurate that we've spent massively and have the best squad.

​Highlighted bits I didn't agree with.

I agree with you on a whole here, but what I'm trying to say is that we don't really know any of the proper details at all and aren't in a great position to comment.

No way you have any idea what Leon Best or Ince were on.

[Mostyn6]

​But still significantly more than you thought it was when you claimed we hadnt spent anywhere near £5m in total.

​Did I? Or did I say "Bournemouth were willing to pay £5m for Gray from Birmingham, which would probably have exceeded our whole transfer spend under McClaren."

 

You're not an idiot, you can clearly see the word "probably" there, and it's clear from the tone of my whole post that I'm clearly speculating. 

[Tombo]

​£7m is still mediocre IMO.

​Just stop. Don't be stupid.

[G STAR RAM]

The whole post is pure speculation, dressed up as educated guesses that goes purely against infofmation available in the public domain.

 

[Mostyn6]

​If you actually read all the responses ramblur cleared up the new contract issues as well and it is just on new purchases that totalled £6.77m and the timescale is after the end of the accounting period to when the accounts are signed off - so June 30th to Novemebr I think it was.

How much of that £6.77m do you genuinely think was spent on non first team players. And add in the costs of loans and the winter transfers for the first team.

You do seem to sometimes ignore facts that dont back up your argument

​what the hell are you babbling on about?!?! You have not shown me any more facts that the amount of "facts" I have posted myself. it's all speculation. I ignore nothing I see with my own eyes. Which FACTS are you referring to? If you got Ramblur here now, and he's has honest as they come, he quite clearly puts in his posts that he does a lot of educated guesswork cos simply the information, ie. The FACTS are not readily available!

[Tombo]

You know, I was going to mention a long while back that according to Football Manager, the Shotton deal was £1m and Best was being paid 36k a week, with us paying 24k. FM often have their numbers right. I didn't mention it because I thought "Why would I speculate wildly on something I know nothing about?"

But then Mostyn came along with this. Thanks for opening the door for mindless speculation on wages and fees Mostyn, let the crazy summer begin.