Fed up of Clough

[notts_ram]

Successful teams do not make money, and are a dead duck if you are looking for a sound investment, long or short term.

I agree. Someone needs to tell GSE this. Not that they would listen now as they obviously came on board to make money and theyre now not going to change their strategy. They probably cant if their business plan is being supported by bank loans, they cant go back to their financial backers now and say by the way we've ripped up our business plan which coincidentally you lent us all of the money on the basis of. 

[Ambitious]

Give him £1.2M to get a centre forward and he won't score goals and eventually won't get in the team at the expense of a free transfer.

Giving him more won't get us in the top 6 because he will just blow even more on *****.

 

Until we are on a budget more/similar to Forest, Leicester, Bolton, Reading, QPR, Brighton, Blackburn, and Wigan then I will not expect top 6 football, if we get it I will be delighted but it is not expected because it isn't funded. 

 

whoever is manager, from mourinho to phil brown until we double our budget then I will not expect the top 6 because it isn't reasonable - spending 1.2million on a striker and not playing him is absolutely nothing in comparison to some of the teams mentioned have done. That striker that cost 4million from peterborough for brighton doesn't even get in the squad, Leicester have players in their reserves on 30 thousand a week, Forest have about 9 strikers all on decent money but still moan about a lack of a 'proper striker'... you think we're the only ones to moan about our manager? not even close - but the thing is, if Forest don't get in the top 6 this season after their funding then they've messed up, just like if we end up in the bottom 6, we have messed up! 

 

You get what you pay for.

 

 

Why though? Bradford got into a cup final last year. Wimbledon had gates of 6,000 but consistently finished above teams with far higher budgets in the Prem. Portsmouth must have had one of the largest wage bills in the Prem but they still got relegated without a trace. 

 

Yeah, but expectation and what actually happens are different kettles of fish. You think Bradford fans said at the start of the season 'if we don't get to the cup final, then we should sack the manager' of course not - expectation is just that, where YOU should finish, without rose tinted goggles firmly on - where has your board set you up to finish? The only team to finish above us with a smaller budget last season was Charlton, yet we finished about 7/8 teams with a much larger budget! 

[Ramarena]

How come most clubs say there budget is so low and they are skint. Sheff wed say they have no money and haven't for years, yet they have just signed roger Johnson on loan who much be on a pretty good wage and have players like Kirkland and gardener.

Do we actually know where our budget is in tve pecking order or are people just guessing?

 

Guessing. I remember seeing a post somewhere that said that Sam Rush had recently mentioned our wage budget was midtable. 

[smiffy]

This is something I profess somewhat baffles me, why would people of their purported wealth, have to borrow the small amounts (to them ) of money invested in DCFC.

Are not a couple of them billionaires ?

[notts_ram]

This is something I profess somewhat baffles me, why would people of their purported wealth, have to borrow the small amounts (to them ) of money invested in DCFC.

Are not a couple of them billionaires ?

Just the same as I have assets locked away in my house but until I sell it I cannot access them - paper assets. 

[Mostyn6]

Failure is a big word to use when you consider what his remit has been.

 

Any manager worth his own salt would attempt to exceed his remit. I doubt Billy was expected to get promotion in the season he got us up. This is a rank lack of ambition from Clough

 

How can you expect top 6? 

 

I just don't get it... nothing against you, but if I was asked to buy a Ferrari for the same price as a ford fiesta but could only manage an alpha romeo  (still better) and got blasted for it, I'd be a bit pissed off.

 

Give him a top 6 budget, which is roughly double what ours is now - and, then if he doesn't get top 6 within 2 years then I would expect him to get sacked. giving him a bottom half budget, and saying finishing in the top half isn't good enough is absolutely mental. 

 

Why are you so hung up on the budget. If the manager was good enough, after 5 years of wheeling and dealing, we should have a much better squad! Please tell me what Palace's budget what at the start of last season! Also, what was Billy's budget in his first few months?

 

I agree. Someone needs to tell GSE this. Not that they would listen now as they obviously came on board to make money and theyre now not going to change their strategy. They probably cant if their business plan is being supported by bank loans, they cant go back to their financial backers now and say by the way we've ripped up our business plan which coincidentally you lent us all of the money on the basis of. 

 

Bank loans? How do you know they've used bank loans?

[notts_ram]

 

Yeah, but expectation and what actually happens are different kettles of fish. You think Bradford fans said at the start of the season 'if we don't get to the cup final, then we should sack the manager' of course not - expectation is just that, where YOU should finish, without rose tinted goggles firmly on - where has your board set you up to finish? The only team to finish above us with a smaller budget last season was Charlton, yet we finished about 7/8 teams with a much larger budget! 

We're going a bit off tangent here, what do you define Ambitious as "budget"? And seeing as none of us can actually genuinely corroborate how much "budget" be it transfers or wages any of the Champ clubs have then the argument is a bit tenuous.

[notts_ram]

 

Bank loans? How do you know they've used bank loans?

See previous quote. Hardly think they rolled up at PP and plonked 25 million in used bank notes on the desk

[Ambitious]

We're going a bit off tangent here, what do you define Ambitious as "budget"? And seeing as none of us can actually genuinely corroborate how much "budget" be it transfers or wages any of the Champ clubs have then the argument is a bit tenuous.

 

That's why I mentioned 8 sides with a much more considerable budget than us - the rest could be argued either way. 

 

 

Why are you so hung up on the budget. If the manager was good enough, after 5 years of wheeling and dealing, we should have a much better squad! Please tell me what Palace's budget what at the start of last season! Also, what was Billy's budget in his first few months?

 

In the same way Moyes must have done a poor job at Everton? also I don't know what palaces budget was, probably similar to ours - guessing a little bit larger as Glenn Murray was on quite a lot of money, but the fact I am getting at was Palace didn't expect to go up at the start of the season - hopeful, maybe.. but expectation? no. 

 

Wolves expected to go straight back up, yet they went down again. 

[smiffy]

See previous quote. Hardly think they rolled up at PP and plonked 25 million in used bank notes on the desk

They did something like that surely, they invested in GSE , they would hardly get a bank loan to invest.

[Mostyn6]

See previous quote. Hardly think they rolled up at PP and plonked 25 million in used bank notes on the desk

 

I think they virtually did. Their whole philosophy was based upon NOT wasting money on interest to banks. I would happily wager that the banks are owed only for the mortgage.

[notts_ram]

That's why I mentioned 8 sides with a much more considerable budget than us - the rest could be argued either way. 

 

I dont buy that about budgets, football management is not just about spending money, its about coaching and developing players, getting the tactics right on the day, motivating your team, making match changing substitutions, your scouting network....having money helps but isnt the be all and end all of things. Lets not turn up for matches against teams with bigger budgets then as we know what the outcome would be. Lets not expect to beat teams with bigger budgets, lets communciate that to the players, great motivational technique. 

[uttoxram75]

I dont buy that about budgets, football management is not just about spending money, its about coaching and developing players, getting the tactics right on the day, motivating your team, making match changing substitutions, your scouting network....having money helps but isnt the be all and end all of things. Lets not turn up for matches against teams with bigger budgets then as we know what the outcome would be. Lets not expect to beat teams with bigger budgets, lets communciate that to the players, great motivational technique. 

Or we can set our stall out and say to other teams, "we don't give a fook how much your players cost or how much they earn, we will play our football our way with courage and belief", maybe that is a great motivational statement to our players - that the manager believes they are good enough to go out and play a passing game against teams assembled for huge amounts compared to ours......

[Ambitious]

I dont buy that about budgets, football management is not just about spending money, its about coaching and developing players, getting the tactics right on the day, motivating your team, making match changing substitutions, your scouting network....having money helps but isnt the be all and end all of things. Lets not turn up for matches against teams with bigger budgets then as we know what the outcome would be. Lets not expect to beat teams with bigger budgets, lets communciate that to the players, great motivational technique. 

 

I feel you're missing my point, which is about expectation.

 

I guess it depends on the person, but if the board sack Clough for not finishing in the top 6 - well, I just don't know how you can expect that - just as I don't expect us to win the championship, and don't expect us to be relegated.

 

I expect a mid-table finish, because that is where we are - this is what we are made for. If we finish top 6, then I will be delighted, and take my hat off to Clough for doing it against all odds, just like if we finish bottom 6 then I will be pissed off as we are clearly built for better. 

 

That is all - when we play yeovil, millwall, barnsley.. I expect us to win, home and away. When we play against Leicester, Reading and Wigan I don't expect us to win, home and away. And it doesn't always work out like that, but I have a balanced view and with that, balanced expectation.

 

Any new manager will come in with the same expectations - but I am comfortable with Clough, I like what he is trying to do. A lot of managers especially in this league will go for the quick fix, and look short term because that's what they expect in this league, most of the time you're sacked within 2 years, so why plan longer than that? 

[G STAR RAM]

How come most clubs say there budget is so low and they are skint. Sheff wed say they have no money and haven't for years, yet they have just signed roger Johnson on loan who much be on a pretty good wage and have players like Kirkland and gardener.

Do we actually know where our budget is in tve pecking order or are people just guessing?

 

Complete guesses, we don't even know what are our own playing staff budget is so how can we even begin to pretend to know other teams.

 

All we know is that our playing staff budget falls somewhere below the total wages figure in the accounts.

 

I think it is pretty obvious that any teams on parachute payments will have higher budgets than ours, add Forest and Leicester on top and then I imagine most teams after that have pretty similar budgets with the exception of Yeovil.

 

Pure guesswork by the way!

[Asanovic]

I think the fact we haven't been relegated in the past six seasons is an achievement.

[notts_ram]

I feel you're missing my point, which is about expectation.

 

OK fair comment. My expectations is that after 5 years in charge Clough should have moulded a team that was genuinely able to challenge the Top 6. Why? 5 years is a hell of a long time for any football manager in this day and age and more than ample opportunity for a manager of the right calibre to achieve this. 

[LittleEatonRam]

More often than not a manager will get one of two things:

1) money

2) time

 

Very rarely do they get both, and if anything a lot of the time they get neither.  Nigel might not have had a lot of money (although he's been able to spend the vast majority of money we've earned from player sales) but by modern standards he's had a lot of time.  Which of the two luxuries a manager would prefer, I don't know.

 

I sometimes feel discussions about whether it's time for him to go are a bit of a moot point though; I've always thought he's got one of the safest jobs in the Football League.

[Beetle]

First post be gentle...

 

I like analogy to Moyes(I'm not saying Clough is Moyes). He was at a club that expects to win a trophy regularly. Yet he won nothing and was praised for doing a good job.

 

We are a club that have won little, the average position for us over time has been towards the bottom of the top division and we do not have the budget to match teams in our division. What do we expect? What we want is another matter.

 

What if Clough gets us up what do we expect then? If we stay up and consolidate how long until people complain that we should be in Europe?

 

I'm grateful the club is no longer a laughing stock and is stable. You ask your work mates what they think of Derby now - I bet the majority of them think we're in a decent state. We play some good stuff at times, other times we are awful.

 

What do I expect - top ten. What do I think - 8th (Russell is getting better, I'm sure we'll get a CB and I'm hoping for a right winger from Villa very soon). What do I want - the same as everyone. Finish top and stuff Forest twice - I've already got butterflys.

[Guest]

Or over 5 years we have improved by 8 places (1/3rd of the league) if I gave you a sequence of numbers like 18-16-14-12-10 would you not expect 6 to be too far ahead in the sequence?

Don't look like breaking the sequence? Its not even the end of September!

Poor Moyes first season in charge and Man Utd won't even make Europa League based on this theory.

8 games is nearly a fifth of the way through the season; and we are out of one of the 2 cup competitions.

man utd have a track record of being able to put a run together that would put them back in contention following their worst start for years; but even the bookies dont put them as favs anymore.

whereas your faith in us finishing within the top 6 is based upon what ? Given the only time we have ever come close to this after xmas is....anyone?