Players improving vs getting worse under our Nigel

[randombc]

Are you judging on ability alone? People don't just gain more ability! They're either able, or not. Where a player can improve is fitness, technique, mental attitude, teamwork, consistency, strength etc.

Would you like me to now balance out your comment?

Lee Croft - got worse/declined under Clough

Martin Albrechtsen - got worse/declined under Clough

Jay McEveley - got worse/declined under Clough

Tomas Cywka - got worse/declined under Clough

Frankie Fielding - got worse/declined under Clough

Dave Martin - got worse/declined under Clough

Dean Leacock - got worse/declined under Clough

Stephen Bywater - got worse/declined under Clough

Paul Green - got worse/declined under Clough

How many players would you say are at a better team than Derby/ at a higher level and which of these would you have over our current players in our starting 11?

They may have just been substandard players?

[randombc]

I agree with this... but to be clear (as the ney-sayers will no doubt argue) I'm NOT looking at whether what league a player came from, just whether they are batter now than their first games for Derby...

As you've said, it's not necessarily that he's 'gained' more ability, but he's now playing against better opposition and you have to give credit to Clough for finding him in a team that was struggling at the time.

Although he may not have improved in terms of ability he's improved in terms of proving himself at a much higher level than previously.

[Albert]

Are you judging on ability alone? People don't just gain more ability! They're either able, or not. Where a player can improve is fitness, technique, mental attitude, teamwork, consistency, strength etc.

 

Would you like me to now balance out your comment?

 

Lee Croft - got worse/declined under Clough

Martin Albrechtsen - got worse/declined under Clough

Jay McEveley -  got worse/declined under Clough

Tomas Cywka - got worse/declined under Clough

Frankie Fielding - got worse/declined under Clough

Dave Martin - got worse/declined under Clough

Dean Leacock - got worse/declined under Clough

Stephen Bywater - got worse/declined under Clough

Paul Green - got worse/declined under Clough

Lee Croft - He certainly got worse at Derby, even after he threatened a rivalal of fortunes at the start of last season

Martin Albrechtsen - An odd one, he looked decent enough before his injury (while Jewell was still in charge) and never really got back to that once Clough came in

Jay McEveley - His best football at the club was under Clough's management, and the numbers back this up. By points per game with him on the park he was oddly our best left full back under Clough even. A bit mistake prone and not exactly a consistent beast for us, but he certainly got better under Clough, just not good enough

Tomas Cywka - He certainly got better under Clough as well, before completely collapsing when things got a bit rough in 10-11

Frankie Fielding - Saw the best football of his career under Clough, but declined

Dave Martin - I still don't know what happened here. A truly bizarre signing

Dean Leacock - He actually got worse under Jewell and just never got back to his best

Stephen Bywater - Clough actually saved his career initially, his performances in 09-10 were outstanding and for a time he looked a fantastic keeper under him. It's a shame that he collapsed so spectacularly in 10-11

Paul Green - What? He was about as good as he was under Jewell. He could certainly do a job at this level and that was the case under both Clough and Jewell. The only issue he really had under Clough were injuries

The only repeating pattern seems to be Clough managing to get some players going only for them to fall, and there have been a few examples, the most striking of course being Bywater and Cywka. You could say the same for Theo now as well of course, not to mention Fielding. It's the nature of the beast of course, some players are going to have ups and downs in their careers, and the key point is that for Clough he's certainly had more hits than misses.

[eddie]

Dave Martin - I still don't know what happened here. A truly bizarre signing

 

 

I think I do.

 

12 months later, in conversation, Clough suddenly said "Oh, CHRIS Martin. That's the one."

[notts_ram]

What a crass thread - if the players being mentioned were all abject when they came in and Clough now has them playing like Non League players instead of pub team players then that would mean Clough has improved all of his squad. What a nonsense.

[uttoxram75]

If you like Nige then many players have improved under him. However, if you don't like him then many have got worse.

 

Its really that simple! Otherwise you'd have been wrong all this time.

[Bris Vegas]

Brayford - Came from league 2 - now touted for premiership stardom - IMPROVED

Keogh - Earnt his first international cap - IMPROVED

Buxton - IMPROVED

Forsyth - Not enough time

Coutts - Was unhappy at PNE so can't really be judged if he's 'improved' but seems to be enjoying his football a lot more.

Hendrick - Came from under 18's to Ireland international IMPROVED

Hughes - Came from under 18's to rumoured £10 million bid - IMPROVED

Ward - Best goalscoring record of his career at Derby - IMPROVED

Sammon - Undecided

Russell - Not enough time

Grant - Supposedly improved since he was last with us although Clough is not responsible for that.

Freeman - Came from Forest reserves to making 19 appearances last season and not looking out of place - IMPROVED

 

To be honest, I can't really think of a footballer that Clough has signed permanently gone down in terms of ability,

 

Although there are way to many variables to judge this fairly, who's to say that these players would not have improved quicker or better under a different manager?

 

The only ones you can judge are those that have moved at a similar level..

 

I mean the likes of Buxton, Brayford, Hughes, Hendrick, Freeman, Bailey, etc.. All of these kinds of players were never going to get worse were they? I mean it's not like Brayford moving upto the NPC from League 2 with better training, players and methods going to get worse from his standard of League 2..

 

These players were naturally going to get better.. You didn't expect Buxton to come from Mansfield and a few years on be worse than the player we bought from Mansfield.. A couple of years experience at a much better club will work wonders with any player, Pringle is proof of this..

 

The same can apply vice versa.. It's not often you get the likes of Danny Murphy being a regular coming from an established PL club getting better as a player by dropping down a division to Blackburn.. Obviously Murphy is old that's probably not the best example, but players like John O Shea, Wes Brown, Luis Saha etc. were all naturally better for Man Utd than Sunderland..

 

Players will naturally get better with time and gradually decline once past their peak.. The only names than standout for me in our squad where we can realistically have this conversation is the likes of Barker, Keogh, Fielding, Ward, Forsyth, Sammon,

[ramsbottom]

The only ones you can judge are those that have moved at a similar level..

I mean the likes of Buxton, Brayford, Hughes, Hendrick, Freeman, Bailey, etc.. All of these kinds of players were never going to get worse were they? I mean it's not like Brayford moving upto the NPC from League 2 with better training, players and methods going to get worse from his standard of League 2..

These players were naturally going to get better.. You didn't expect Buxton to come from Mansfield and a few years on be worse than the player we bought from Mansfield.. A couple of years experience at a much better club will work wonders with any player, Pringle is proof of this..

The same can apply vice versa.. It's not often you get the likes of Danny Murphy being a regular coming from an established PL club getting better as a player by dropping down a division to Blackburn.. Obviously Murphy is old that's probably not the best example, but players like John O Shea, Wes Brown, Luis Saha etc. were all naturally better for Man Utd than Sunderland..

Players will naturally get better with time and gradually decline once past their peak.. The only names than standout for me in our squad where we can realistically have this conversation is the likes of Barker, Keogh, Fielding, Ward, Forsyth, Sammon,

And there was I at the start of your thinking he's merely going to say every player over a certain age had been turned into a donkey by NLN and his methods. Well done you for being slightly positive.

Saying that I guess you could argue it's a stab at his back by suggesting that young players always get better being surrounded by better facilities and team mates. It's not always the case...

[RamNut]

I'd also point out that Nigel has a knack of getting the best out of strikers and goal scorers. What's the common theme between Hulse, Commons, Davies, Theo and Ward? They all had their seasonal best goal total under Nigel.

Cywka.......?

[Guest]

Cywka.......?

 

And....

Commons best season was 13 goals......he also scored the same in 06-07, albeit with more games.

Ward scored more in 08-09 with 16

Hulse scored 27 for Crewe

Theo scored 16 twice before in his career

 

So the common theme is, Davies scored more goals ?

I am missing something surely, or is wiki wrong ? maybe a graph will help me understand.....

[cannable]

And....

Commons best season was 13 goals......he also scored the same in 06-07, albeit with more games.

Ward scored more in 08-09 with 16

Hulse scored 27 for Crewe

Theo scored 16 twice before in his career

So the common theme is, Davies scored more goals ?

I am missing something surely, or is wiki wrong ? maybe a graph will help me understand.....

They've all had their best goal scoring seasons at this level under Clough though.

[May Contain Nuts]

^indeed.

 

Leeds Ram wins on a technicality though, and whilst we're pointing out 'in this division' we should also point out the difference between league goals and cup goals - Commons scored 13 goals in a season he was playing in League One, but 3 of them were in a cup game against the mighty Yeading. He scored 13 league goals for us in this division.

 

Edit: oh and quoting Wikipedia, tut tut. As I've said before, for season-on-season goals stats use soccerbase!

[LittleEatonRam]

The thing I notice about this kind of conversation (and I think I've seen someone say the same thing elsewhere) is that, for many people, players who are currently at Derby under Clough are assumed to be good until the second they get binned off by Nigel, at which point the same people modify their opinion to "well, he was never that good anyway".

 

It's as if there is a small window in every player's career when they are considered to be any good, and it just so happens that that window coincides with when they were here.

[Martyn]

The thing I notice about this kind of conversation (and I think I've seen someone say the same thing elsewhere) is that, for many people, players who are currently at Derby under Clough are assumed to be good until the second they get binned off by Nigel, at which point the same people modify their opinion to "well, he was never that good anyway".

 

Is there no chance that poor performances result in players getting "binned" by Nigel?

[Mostyn6]

Is there no chance that poor performances result in players getting "binned" by Nigel?

 

Is there a chance that it's the manager (and chosen coaching staff) who are responsible for nurturing better performances out of players? After all, they're getting the credit for doing so for some players.

[Guest]

They've all had their best goal scoring seasons at this level under Clough though.

 

But the majority of the careers of these people have been spent outside this league.

 

Why was Tyson, Varney, Maguire, and Cywka left of this list

[LittleEatonRam]

Is there no chance that poor performances result in players getting "binned" by Nigel?

 

Of course there is, and that has happened a few times. But sometimes players are dropped or gotten rid of despite not playing that badly, and even when they have played badly it's often considered to be because they "haven't developed as we expected" or something. And whose fault is that?

 

What gets me is that often Clough will announce the arrival of a new player with great fanfare, saying things like "we think he's got a lot of potential" or "he's been top of our list", and when things don't go according to plan it's never because NC called it wrong, it's just that "they were never that good anyway".  Well why did he buy them then?

[Martyn]

Is there a chance that it's the manager (and chosen coaching staff) who are responsible for nurturing better performances out of players? After all, they're getting the credit for doing so for some players.

 

I thought that was the jist of what I was responding to?

[Martyn]

Of course there is, and that has happened a few times. But sometimes players are dropped or gotten rid of despite not playing that badly, and even when they have played badly it's often considered to be because they "haven't developed as we expected" or something. And whose fault is that?

 

Ah, we're playing the blame game.  Why does everything have to be someone's "fault"?  I don't have that built-in mindset.

 

Rarely, if ever, has Clough spent a considerable sum on someone who then failed to deliver (maybe Tyson?).  During Nigel's time here he's, through necessity, made a lot of "punts".  I don't mind the failures when the successes seem to out-way them.

[LittleEatonRam]

Ah, we're playing the blame game.  Why does everything have to be someone's "fault"?  I don't have that built-in mindset.

 

Rarely, if ever, has Clough spent a considerable sum on someone who then failed to deliver (maybe Tyson?).  During Nigel's time here he's, through necessity, made a lot of "punts".  I don't mind the failures when the successes seem to out-way them.

 

 

Ah, we're playing "let's not play the blame game".  The game people tend to play as a last resort.

 

It's simply really - when Clough says "we think he's got a lot of potential" and then 18 months down the line decides he doesn't want said player it tends to imply one of two things: 1) the player didn't have a lot of potential, in which case the scouts were wrong, or 2) the player did have a lot of potential but the management didn't get it out of him.

 

Nigel seems to pursue players for a while, convinced that only they will do, and then lose interest pretty quickly.

 

My gut feeling is that Jacobs will be the next one of Clough's recent signing to be shown the door despite Nigel believing that "he has plenty of potential, which we believe he can fulfil in a Derby County shirt."

 

Judging by the end of last season he's gone off him already.