Mostyn6 Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 HAHAHA!!! Love this!!! Started this thread as a social experiment to see what would happen... And surprise surprise it's EXACTLY the same people who criticise every element of Nigel who are giving it the whole "Yeh, well Hughes and Hendrick are just naturally gifted, nothing to do with the club..." It's not like any of the guys who come through under Ferguson ever credit him with benfiting them as a player is it? Oh... wait... Well that's the thing. Players have either got it, or they haven't. Hughes and Hendrick would have broken through at some point under any manager at this level. Where a manager (Clough in this case) will earn is credit, is by keeping these players fit, motivated, disciplined, grounded and consistent. Yes, Clough can take credit for those things in the cases of Hughes, Hendrick (and for return to form) and Brayford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 3, 2013 Author Share Posted July 3, 2013 Players have either got it, or they haven't. I disagree... David Beckham's considered to be one of the better free-kick takers in the last 20 years and he's always said it was nothing to do with natural talent... He says he spent hours and hours on the training ground after everyone else had gone home and practiced set-peices... I'd say that someone like Hendrick is under great manager for him... Nigel emphasises possession, accurate passing and work-rate... which for the type of midfielder Hendrick is should be perfect... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I disagree... David Beckham's considered to be one of the better free-kick takers in the last 20 years and he's always said it was nothing to do with natural talent... He says he spent hours and hours on the training ground after everyone else had gone home and practiced set-peices... I'd say that someone like Hendrick is under great manager for him... Nigel emphasises possession, accurate passing and work-rate... which for the type of midfielder Hendrick is should be perfect... With all respect to Mr Beckham, the legend that he is. If he went to Loughborough and studied sports science or a number of other courses, he'd very quickly change his opinion. I know some lads who probably played football as much as Beckham as a kid, and came nowhere near making it. If you haven't the natural ability, you won't make it. In the case of Beckham, I'd guess (but I cannot say for a fact) that his natural ability is what made him a player, and his practice is what made him a superstar. Add:: Your comment about Hendrick is right IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 3, 2013 Author Share Posted July 3, 2013 If you haven't the natural ability, you won't make it. Agreed... But the right training and coaching makes the difference between David Beckham and Lee Sharpe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal is a Ram Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Bris made the point that certain players can't fail to improve due to the nature of their entry into the club. So why not say the same for those that declined? Players signed in their later years will of course, naturally decline as footballers (Paul Green for example) but I don't think this has been mentioned. Just another stick with which to beat Clough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Cywka.......?What about Cywka? Yes, he did make his seasonal best total under Nigel, which he since beat at Barnsley with year, with 5 in 28 beating his old record of 4 in 31. At no point did I say that he got more goals out of everyone, nor did I say anything about attacking midfielders and wingers.And....Commons best season was 13 goals......he also scored the same in 06-07, albeit with more games.Ward scored more in 08-09 with 16Hulse scored 27 for CreweTheo scored 16 twice before in his career So the common theme is, Davies scored more goals ?I am missing something surely, or is wiki wrong ? maybe a graph will help me understand.....I was talking Championship level and above, but hey, 14 League two goals in 23 appearances is surely better than 12 Championship goals in 25 eh?Also, why are you talking goals in all competitions? Hulse scored 22 goals in the 38 games at League One level for Crewe and 15 in 44 and 12 in 37 at Championship level. That said, 8 in 28 at Premier level with Sheffield United is arguably more impressive than either of those I guess.Theo hit 13 goals in the Isthmian League and League Two. Clearly equivalent to Champion Level eh? I'm sure he'll look back on those two are clearly better than his 10 Championship goals in 11-12.So yes, you are missing something, a lot actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 What about Cywka? Yes, he did make his seasonal best total under Nigel, which he since beat at Barnsley with year, with 5 in 28 beating his old record of 4 in 31. At no point did I say that he got more goals out of everyone, nor did I say anything about attacking midfielders and wingers. I was talking Championship level and above, but hey, 14 League two goals in 23 appearances is surely better than 12 Championship goals in 25 eh? Also, why are you talking goals in all competitions? Hulse scored 22 goals in the 38 games at League One level for Crewe and 15 in 44 and 12 in 37 at Championship level. That said, 8 in 28 at Premier level with Sheffield United is arguably more impressive than either of those I guess. Theo hit 13 goals in the Isthmian League and League Two. Clearly equivalent to Champion Level eh? I'm sure he'll look back on those two are clearly better than his 10 Championship goals in 11-12. So yes, you are missing something, a lot actually. Maybe you should make your posts clearer, these players spent a lot of time out of the division so I cant see your point. Take Theo as your example, he hadnt had a full season in the championship playing regulary, so what paramerters are you using for your information, just so I can see what you are trying to prove. Also why are some players are ommitted, was Commons not an attacking midfielder ? Where is Tyson, and Maguire for example ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Maybe you should make your posts clearer, these players spent a lot of time out of the division so I cant see your point. Take Theo as your example, he hadnt had a full season in the championship playing regulary, so what paramerters are you using for your information, just so I can see what you are trying to prove. Also why are some players are ommitted, was Commons not an attacking midfielder ?Where is Tyson, and Maguire for example ?How can omit anything when I made no claim to being comprehensive? The point was that more than one striker had made their career best total at this level. I did however forget to directly reference that I discounted goals scored below Championship level (and in some cases you referenced this went as low as the 7th tier of English football). A complete comprehensive study of this would probably not be all that interesting to be honest, you're perfectly welcome to do one if you want.Let's just go through our strikers and wingers over Nigel's time and their best career records, ordering them in two ways:First (I):- Division (highest)- Goals scored (most)- Games played (least)Second (II):- Goals scored (most)- Games played (least)Third (III):- Championship only- Goals scored (most)- Games played (least)Keep in mind that only league goals are included here, as is generally done. This is also only for the English League system. The format reads:Type - Goals (games), season (division) - ClubChris Porter:I - 4 (21), 10-11 (Championship) - DerbyII - 21 (37), 06-07 (League One) - OldhamIII - 4 (21), 10-11 (Championship) - DerbySteven Davies:I - 12 (26), 11-12 (Championship) - DerbyII - 12 (26), 11-12 (Championship) - DerbyIII - 12 (26), 11-12 (Championship) - DerbyLuke Varney:I - 5 (30), 10-11 (Premier League) - BlackpoolII - 17 (34), 06-07 (League One) - CreweIII - 9 (39), 09-10 (Championship) - Sheffield WednesdayRob Hulse:I - 8 (29), 06-07 (Premier League) - Sheffield UnitedII - 22 (38), 02-03 (League One) - CreweIII - 15 (44), 08-09 (Championship) - DerbyKris Commons:I - 13 (26), 10-11 (Championship) - DerbyII - 13 (26), 10-11 (Championship) - DerbyIII - 13 (26), 10-11 (Championship) - DerbyTomasz Cywka:I - 5 (29), 12-13 (Championship) - BarnsleyII - 5 (29), 12-13 (Championship) - BarnsleyIII - 5 (29), 12-13 (Championship) - BarnsleyJamie Ward:I - 12 (25), 12-13 (Championship) - DerbyII - 14 (23), 08-09 (League Two) - ChesterfieldIII - 12 (25), 12-13 (Championship) - DerbyChris Maguire:I - 3 (11), 11-12 (Championship) - PortsmouthII - 3 (11), 11-12 (Championship) - PortsmouthIII - 3 (11), 11-12 (Championship) - PortsmouthTheo RobinsonI - 10 (39), 11-12 (Championship) - DerbyII - 13 (37), 09-10 (League One) - HuddersfieldIII - 10 (39), 11-12 (Championship) - DerbyNathan Tyson:I - 4 (16), 12-13 (Championship) - DerbyII - 22 (44), 04-05 (League Two) - WycombeI - 4 (16), 12-13 (Championship) - DerbyPlayers like Sammon have been left out due to there being effectively nothing to compare it with. The same could be said for the likes of Maguire for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 How can omit anything when I made no claim to being comprehensive? The point was that more than one striker had made their career best total at this level. I did however forget to directly reference that I discounted goals scored below Championship level (and in some cases you referenced this went as low as the 7th tier of English football). A complete comprehensive study of this would probably not be all that interesting to be honest, you're perfectly welcome to do one if you want. Let's just go through our strikers and wingers over Nigel's time and their best career records, ordering them in two ways: Players like Sammon have been left out due to there being effectively nothing to compare it with. The same could be said for the likes of Maguire for that matter. Fair enough, but its not really a big claim to fame given that the majority have only spent their time in the is league at Derby, I thought that you must be giving some credit to Clough for improving them, and using there highest goalscoring as a benchmark. I dont think any stats can be used based on the below and back your claim that Clough gets the best out of the strikers, although its from wiki so could be wrong.... Steve Davies, played in Champ without Derby once, also scored 12. Rob Hulse, I'll accept, as a matter of interest was it Clough who signed him ? Kris Commons, only had one other season in the Champ ? Jamie Ward, only 2 other seasons Theo, had one other full season playing in the league where he played 3 games Tyson scored 5 for the red dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 4, 2013 Author Share Posted July 4, 2013 How can omit anything when I made no claim to being comprehensive? The point was that more than one striker had made their career best total at this level. I did however forget to directly reference that I discounted goals scored below Championship level (and in some cases you referenced this went as low as the 7th tier of English football). A complete comprehensive study of this would probably not be all that interesting to be honest, you're perfectly welcome to do one if you want. Let's just go through our strikers and wingers over Nigel's time and their best career records, ordering them in two ways: You're my hero Albert... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Fair enough, but its not really a big claim to fame given that the majority have only spent their time in the is league at Derby, I thought that you must be giving some credit to Clough for improving them, and using there highest goalscoring as a benchmark. I dont think any stats can be used based on the below and back your claim that Clough gets the best out of the strikers, although its from wiki so could be wrong.... Steve Davies, played in Champ without Derby once, also scored 12.Rob Hulse, I'll accept, as a matter of interest was it Clough who signed him ? Kris Commons, only had one other season in the Champ ?Jamie Ward, only 2 other seasonsTheo, had one other full season playing in the league where he played 3 gamesTyson scored 5 for the red dogs.Hulse signed when Jewell was in charge, for a whopping £1.75 mil. When people complain about Clough wasting money on the likes of Maguire (~£400k, and who we got our money back on), Porter (£400k, and looked good before his injury woes) and such, I always think back to Jewell's summer of glory:Rob Hulse - £1.75 milSteve Davies - £275k rising to £725kLiam Dickinson - £750kNathan Ellington - A "substantial" loan fee, rumoured to be in excess of £1.5 mil on top of his rumoured £25k a week wagesThat was just the forwards!Back on Hulse, it wasn't until Clough came in that he really started scoring, and the majority of his goals were scored after Clough arrived.I did miss Tyson's 5 in 35. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Hulse signed when Jewell was in charge, for a whopping £1.75 mil. When people complain about Clough wasting money on the likes of Maguire (~£400k, and who we got our money back on), Porter (£400k, and looked good before his injury woes) and such, I always think back to Jewell's summer of glory: Rob Hulse - £1.75 mil Steve Davies - £275k rising to £725k Liam Dickinson - £750k Nathan Ellington - A "substantial" loan fee, rumoured to be in excess of £1.5 mil on top of his rumoured £25k a week wages That was just the forwards! Back on Hulse, it wasn't until Clough came in that he really started scoring, and the majority of his goals were scored after Clough arrived. I did miss Tyson's 5 in 35. I'm pretty sure Hulse was a PL striker at one point? And scoring goals in the PL.. I guess that is a far better achievement than 17 goals or so at NPC level.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 I'm pretty sure Hulse was a PL striker at one point? And scoring goals in the PL.. I guess that is a far better achievement than 17 goals or so at NPC level..I made clear and direct reference to that previously in this thread. The comments on him scoring were in clear reference to his time at Derby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Vegas Posted July 4, 2013 Share Posted July 4, 2013 I made clear and direct reference to that previously in this thread. The comments on him scoring were in clear reference to his time at Derby. I thought NC did a good job with him.. Afterall someone offered around $4mill for his services.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 5, 2013 Author Share Posted July 5, 2013 I thought NC did a good job with him.. Afterall someone offered around £4mill for his services.. Who are you and what have you done with Bris? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodleyRam Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 I thought NC did a good job with him.. Afterall someone offered around £4mill for his services.. Did you and Albert just agree on something? Daveo, I think this new server's playing up mate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 5, 2013 Author Share Posted July 5, 2013 Did you and Albert just agree on something? Daveo, I think this new server's playing up mate! Someone's hacked Bris' account... Or he's ill... never seen him actually say something positive before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Lay off Bris guys - he is calling it right here. Back on topic - the more accurately phrased question i think would be those who were bought in the EXPECTATION of improvement which hasn't arisen. As was pointed out by earlier poster this could be either as a result of duff scouting or duff coaching - but the main point is that either way, this results in a waste of Derby's scarce resources. yes, Fergie, Mourinho and others make duff calls, but they have the resources to be able to back-track quickly and so nobody notices. My Manc mate foments about some of United's faux pas in the last 20 years - but they can wear it and we cannot. Derby is a higher risk operation from that perspective - we cannot (or rather have not been able to in recent years) absorb more than a very small number of disappointments as we have not had a strong enough squad. but this season..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted July 8, 2013 Author Share Posted July 8, 2013 but this season..... We're going to take over the world? They're Bucko, they're Bucko and the Brain Brain Brain Brain Brain... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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