Players improving vs getting worse under our Nigel

[Mostyn6]

I thought that was the jist of what I was responding to?

 

 

Well, the player is paid to do as the manager says. The manager is paid to get the player to do as he says, and ensure that what he says works...

[uttoxram75]

Ah, we're playing "let's not play the blame game".  The game people tend to play as a last resort.

 

It's simply really - when Clough says "we think he's got a lot of potential" and then 18 months down the line decides he doesn't want said player it tends to imply one of two things: 1) the player didn't have a lot of potential, in which case the scouts were wrong, or 2) the player did have a lot of potential but the management didn't get it out of him.

 

Nigel seems to pursue players for a while, convinced that only they will do, and then lose interest pretty quickly.

 

My gut feeling is that Jacobs will be the next one of Clough's recent signing to be shown the door despite Nigel believing that "he has plenty of potential, which we believe he can fulfil in a Derby County shirt."

 

Judging by the end of last season he's gone off him already.

Its a valid point but its worth bearing in mind that you could pick similar examples with every manager.

[Martyn]

Ah, we're playing "let's not play the blame game".  The game people tend to play as a last resort.

 

I must admit, the "let's not play the blame game" game is a game I've not heard of before.  Probably because the "let's not play the blame game"'s name is a very long name for a game.

[LittleEatonRam]

I must admit, the "let's not play the blame game" game is a game I've not heard of before.  Probably because the "let's not play the blame game"'s name is a very long name for a game.

 

Why do so many people get smarmy or hostile whenever anyone raises a point they don't agree with?

[eddie]

Of course there is, and that has happened a few times. But sometimes players are dropped or gotten rid of despite not playing that badly, and even when they have played badly it's often considered to be because they "haven't developed as we expected" or something. And whose fault is that?

 

What gets me is that often Clough will announce the arrival of a new player with great fanfare, saying things like "we think he's got a lot of potential" or "he's been top of our list", and when things don't go according to plan it's never because NC called it wrong, it's just that "they were never that good anyway".  Well why did he buy them then?

 

Potential? Possibly potential that at the end of the day remained unfulfilled?

 

There are many instances where players have looked to be world-beaters at one time in their career, only to end up languishing in the lower leagues or just fading away (except on CM01-02, of course in Tonton Zola Moukoko's case). Others have been late developers. Tony Book is a classic example of that - a decade in the Southern League with Bath City and then a 2 year stint at Plymouth Argyle before being transferred to Manchester City. Within three years he (unfairly) managed to get a share of the Footballer of the Year award. In another universe he would have languished at Bath for his whole career and no-one would ever have been the wiser.

[eddie]

Why do so many people get smarmy or hostile whenever anyone raises a point they don't agree with?

 

Why do some people have a sense of humour and others not? Maybe you just didn't 'get it'.

[Bris Vegas]

And there was I at the start of your thinking he's merely going to say every player over a certain age had been turned into a donkey by Clough and his methods. Well done you for being slightly positive.

Saying that I guess you could argue it's a stab at his back by suggesting that young players always get better being surrounded by better facilities and team mates. It's not always the case...

 

I think you'll find that 90% that have moved to better facilities, methods, players, training etc.. get better.. Obviously not always the case, but it's very rare someone would join Everton from Wolves for example and become a worse player..

 

Obviously it's all done with potential.. It's also very rare that teams buy players for their ability in the moment of the transfer unless it's either an old head or at a big club..

 

The majority of the transfers expect the player to get better with time.. So it's actually pretty daft to suggest Nigel is the main reason that Brayford has improved, because he would have improved playing for any other NPC side..

 

I think Clough has done a good job with Ward and Theo are better players here than what they were at other clubs of a similar level..

[eranio20]

Bywater - In the space of a couple of months he went from a supposed England call up, to visiting Sids Sex Shop buying blow up dolls and then ranting on Twitter about Cloughs man management. Can't become a bad player within that duration, sorry.

Maguire - Obviously

Leacock - Played out of position at our local rivals, Clough held a grudge for the performance and his confidence was shattered. Injuries also halted Leacock, but he was instrumental in this league under Davies, why not Clough?

Everyone else improved to an extent; Buxton, Bryson, Pringle (now regarded a key player in league football), Brayford, Commons, Ward the obvious choices

[Mostyn6]

players like Hughes and Hendrick were always going to make it. i cannot give Clough credit when he only picked them out of necessity and not out of choice of foresight!

[eddie]

players like Hughes and Hendrick were always going to make it. i cannot give Clough credit when he only picked them out of necessity and not out of choice of foresight!

 

But Mostyn, I thought that Clough could ruin anybody.

[Mostyn6]

But Mostyn, I thought that Clough could ruin anybody.

 

yeah, if they're naughty boys!

[Bris Vegas]

But Mostyn, I thought that Clough could ruin anybody.

 

Even Alex Ferguson, Jose Mourinho and Pep Guardiola can ruin people..

 

Some would suggest Rooney, Kaka and Fabregas aren't as good as what they were..

 

Or it could be that with time players naturally decline, just as youngsters with time naturally get better.. I don't know what I'm trying to say here, other than the original post and talking about improving players vs getting worse can never really be proved..

[ramsbottom]

I think you'll find that 90% that have moved to better facilities, methods, players, training etc.. get better.. Obviously not always the case, but it's very rare someone would join Everton from Wolves for example and become a worse player..

Obviously it's all done with potential.. It's also very rare that teams buy players for their ability in the moment of the transfer unless it's either an old head or at a big club..

The majority of the transfers expect the player to get better with time.. So it's actually pretty daft to suggest Nigel is the main reason that Brayford has improved, because he would have improved playing for any other NPC side..

I think Clough has done a good job with Ward and Theo are better players here than what they were at other clubs of a similar level..

I bet that last paragraph was typed through gritted teeth lol.

I agreed with original post, I just wanted to point out that not every player is guaranteed to improve upon joining a bigger club. Increased stature and exposure to the public can inhibit certain players and a manager should always be given credit for making their players feel comfortable in order to express themselves...

[Silver]

Derby and Clough are no different to other clubs and managers apart from when a player doesn't work-out a minority of our supporter start to label this as either Clough falling out with someone or ruining them.  Other clubs sign players and then move them on, drop players and play player out of position etc.  It happens in football, get over it.  Look at any team or manager, including Clough snr, at Derby in history the same has always happened.

 

And, when did Cywka go from world beater to crap, my recollection was Clough took a punt on him and he never really improved at Derby so we moved him on.  He clearly wanted to play the way he thought was best and not do what the manager wanted/asked making it difficult for Clough to support or pick him.

[LittleEatonRam]

Why do some people have a sense of humour and others not? Maybe you just didn't 'get it'.

 

I got it, I just don't know why people post things like that as an alternative to answering a legitimate point.  It comes across as engaging in a debate and then making a joke when you can't or won't refute the point being made.

[LittleEatonRam]

Potential? Possibly potential that at the end of the day remained unfulfilled?

 

There are many instances where players have looked to be world-beaters at one time in their career, only to end up languishing in the lower leagues or just fading away (except on CM01-02, of course in Tonton Zola Moukoko's case). Others have been late developers. Tony Book is a classic example of that - a decade in the Southern League with Bath City and then a 2 year stint at Plymouth Argyle before being transferred to Manchester City. Within three years he (unfairly) managed to get a share of the Footballer of the Year award. In another universe he would have languished at Bath for his whole career and no-one would ever have been the wiser.

 

My original point wasn't saying that Clough or any manager shouldn't  take a punt on a player that looks half decent - of course they should.  What I was getting at is that there seem to be people for whom Clough can do no wrong or never make a mistake in the transfer market, and when a player doesn't work out it's often brushed under the carpet as being nothing to do with Nigel, just bad luck.  But when a player does work out, Nigel gets lashings of credit.

 

The truth is that he deserves credit for those that have worked out (Brayford, for example) but he's not immune from criticism, and sometimes it's merited.  The best example of this is probably Maguire - we spent all summer chasing him, lauded him up when we finally landed him and then expressed dismay when he "tried to control the ball with the outside of his foot" rather than the instep.  Why wasn't this picked up on when he was scouted? If it was, didn't it occur to the scouts that, at 22, he might be a bit too old to have a habit he's probably had since he was about 8 coached out of him?

 

Nigel's done very well in signing many players, but my main problem is with people who insist that any duffer he's signed was not his responsibility.  That was my original point, anyway.

[Guest]

I must admit, the "let's not play the blame game" game is a game I've not heard of before.  Probably because the "let's not play the blame game"'s name is a very long name for a game.

 

I think you call it "NC can do no wrong" for short :-)

[Martyn]

I got it, I just don't know why people post things like that as an alternative to answering a legitimate point.  It comes across as engaging in a debate and then making a joke when you can't or won't refute the point being made.

 

As my previous post already covered my thoughts on it I didn't see much point in repeating myself.  And you did start your post off with silly nay-saying and insult.  Apologies for not taking you seriously.

 

As an olive branch I will reply to your points one-by-one.

 

 

Ah, we're playing "let's not play the blame game".  The game people tend to play as a last resort.

 

Interesting you ignored the points I made replied and with that.  Thinking back, that was probably why I didn't think it was worthy of responding.

 

 

It's simply really - when Clough says "we think he's got a lot of potential" and then 18 months down the line decides he doesn't want said player it tends to imply one of two things: 1) the player didn't have a lot of potential, in which case the scouts were wrong, or 2) the player did have a lot of potential but the management didn't get it out of him.

 

 

Spot on.  And?

 

 

 

Nigel seems to pursue players for a while, convinced that only they will do, and then lose interest pretty quickly.

 

He does?  I wonder if you believe far too much of what you read on the 'net and over-analyse it far too much?

 

 

My gut feeling is that Jacobs will be the next one of Clough's recent signing to be shown the door despite Nigel believing that "he has plenty of potential, which we believe he can fulfil in a Derby County shirt."

 

Judging by the end of last season he's gone off him already.

 

You obviously have a very fixed idea of NC in your head if you think that (as it seems completely baseless to me).  So not much left for me to say there.

 

 

See?  It ended up being a really boring reply after all...

[eddie]

I got it, I just don't know why people post things like that as an alternative to answering a legitimate point.  It comes across as engaging in a debate and then making a joke when you can't or won't refute the point being made.

 

Do you use this messageboard as a medium for debate? There's too many people like me around for that - people who think that other people are just too darned serious and take things too much to heart. Sometimes my gags fall flat or are perhaps a little too well 'targeted' - usually after alcohol. I usually apologise the next day.

[cheron85]

HAHAHA!!! Love this!!!

 

Started this thread as a social experiment to see what would happen... And surprise surprise it's EXACTLY the same people who criticise every element of Nigel who are giving it the whole "Yeh, well Hughes and Hendrick are just naturally gifted, nothing to do with the club..."

 

It's not like any of the guys who come through under Ferguson ever credit him with benfiting them as a player is it? Oh... wait...

 

 

I think you'll find that 90% that have moved to better facilities, methods, players, training etc.. get better.. Obviously not always the case, but it's very rare someone would join Everton from Wolves for example and become a worse player..

 

I think it happens more often than you'd think... Andy Carrol at Liverpool, Richards at Man City (various managers to blame there), Arshavin at Arsenal, Bent at Villa?, Anyone half-decent who goes to Stoke, Kilgallon at Sunderland... Just a few examples... Oh, Charlie Adam too... and Jordan Henderson for a while... Half the players who move to Liverpool actually... and any British players who join Man City reserves...

 

Also, not claiming there aren't other factors... Ward for example I don't think has improved... he's AS good as he ever was... It's just that Sheff Utd didn't suit his style of play, and Nigel gets the best out of him...