Are Derby County too British to win the league?

[Mostyn6]

I'd love to say that we're too British, as it suits my anti-Clough stance, but reality is that it's not the case.

 

I do think we are limited by having players of similar levels of flair and ability.

 

We all think we could do with a flair player in the centre of the field, but we could equally do with someone 'rock hard' and tough tackling, in the mould of Scott Parker, Paul Ince, or even our very own Rob Van Der Laan.

 

It's all about balance, not nationality.

 

If I was to criticise Clough for not signing foreigners, it's from the point of view that they're generally cheaper than British players of the same standard, and we're tight for funds and should be exploiting cheaper markets.

[curb]

Does mentioning Godwin's Law effectively un-Godwin a potentially Godwinable thread?

 

Perhaps if we ever sign a player from Karlsruhe - or even better, entering into a club 'twinning' arrangement with them - that would be Clough's equivalent of us annexing the Sudetenland?

It's all fitting together now.

The focus on youth (especially blond ones)

The distrust of foreigners (especially Polish)

[Ramarena]

I'd love to say that we're too British, as it suits my anti-Clough stance, but reality is that it's not the case.

 

I do think we are limited by having players of similar levels of flair and ability.

 

We all think we could do with a flair player in the centre of the field, but we could equally do with someone 'rock hard' and tough tackling, in the mould of Scott Parker, Paul Ince, or even our very own Rob Van Der Laan.

 

It's all about balance, not nationality.

 

If I was to criticise Clough for not signing foreigners, it's from the point of view that they're generally cheaper than British players of the same standard, and we're tight for funds and should be exploiting cheaper markets.

 

This is what interests me. I hate to use Sammon as an example as he takes enough of a kicking from some quarters, but I would love to know what kind of striker we could have got for the same price and wages if we broadened our horizons. 

 

Uncle George got us some cracking players from the continent for small fees and decent wages. I would love NC to give it a try. I feel sometimes he is far too one dimensional. 

[Mostyn6]

This is what interests me. I hate to use Sammon as an example as he takes enough of a kicking from some quarters, but I would love to know what kind of striker we could have got for the same price and wages if we broadened our horizons. 

 

Uncle George got us some cracking players from the continent for small fees and decent wages. I would love NC to give it a try. I feel sometimes he is far too one dimensional. 

 

I'm not sure Uncle George ever paid a transfer fee. ALL freebies and loans.

[Oxram]

I wouldn't say too British to Winthrop league. I'd say not good enough.

 

The thread title is rhetorical. It obviously doesn't come down to where your players come from its always how good they are on the pitch that gets promotion. The thread just needed a title.

[VulcanRam]

Also, Clough has gone on record before saying that foreign players are not the cheap option they used to be as wages and fees have caught up with the UK

[Oxram]

It would be interesting to see the relation in terms of "effective foreigners". That is, a comparison based on the number of foreigners as a proportion of the total number of appearances. Simply noting squad players isn't going to have a huge effect, a bit like with ages.

Also, that trend is very marginal, and the error in that slope would be enormous. It would likely predict us around 15th ± 20 places.

The inaccuracies in the data were discuses earlier in the thread. Its just a simplification and shows the general trend. I think the assumption that a team with more foreign players plays more foreign players is reasonable enough to credit the graphs outcome. I was just too lazy to put in the time to find the appearance data.

The error in the trend line is irrelevant to what the graph shows. My comment about coming 32nd was to stop people taking it too seriously. The trend line is only there for illustration, its the points that are of interest and show how well we are doing being largely confined to this small area when it comes to finding new talent.

You are welcome to do a full analysis if you want more accurate results.

[Ambitious]

I would love to see us move into different markets for players, but, I suppose at the minute you've got pretty much all british team and communication and understanding is easy, and, I think that shows (about 70% of the time) 

 

I do think we would be better off looking at a wider spectrum of players, at the end of the day - you only need 4/5 good players in this division to get somewhere, I don't see much of the lower leagues from different countries but surely it can't be much worse than the reactive, limited creativity and limited ability of the championship - I would, however, argue that the English game at the top 2 levels is very athletic and any player you would look to bring over would need to be athletic, in terms of strength, speed and stamina. 

 

Bueno is a fine example, as a player technically he would of been on of the top in the division - no-one could really argue that, he had a style which oozed technique, and ability. However, he disappeared in games all to easily and as a player he didn't cover much ground and pretty much wandered into holes and pockets. This sort of player as fantastic as he is, we need to stay away from - the easiest way of being successful in this league and how what would be my first concern would be stamina! If you have 11 players all with the ability to just keep pressing, and pushing and still look fresh in the last 10 minutes, you'll win games at this level - definitely! 

[Albert]

The inaccuracies in the data were discuses earlier in the thread. Its just a simplification and shows the general trend. I think the assumption that a team with more foreign players plays more foreign players is reasonable enough to credit the graphs outcome. I was just too lazy to put in the time to find the appearance data.

The error in the trend line is irrelevant to what the graph shows. My comment about coming 32nd was to stop people taking it too seriously. The trend line is only there for illustration, its the points that are of interest and show how well we are doing being largely confined to this small area when it comes to finding new talent.

You are welcome to do a full analysis if you want more accurate results.

The correlation in the data looks minimal at best, and on basis shows basically nothing. There's no clear trend and any fitting value from that is probably atrocious. Throw in working off a vague assumption that teams with more foreign players will play more foreign players (even with some teams having more than 14 foreign players) and it becomes clear that there is very little meaning to this. This should be clear enough though as the "trend line" moves from 8th to 6th across the 24 positions. If anything you're shown that the number of foreign players is largely irrelevant, but a more complete analysis should be done before any such conclusions can be drawn.

Honest, I think it's silly to correlate where players come from to team performance. We aren't limited by where players come from, we're limited by the funds available to go for our prime targets at key times.

[Albert]

Also, Clough has gone on record before saying that foreign players are not the cheap option they used to be as wages and fees have caught up with the UK

Times are changing, some of the best paid players in the World are now in Asia. People don't really understand how much the World of football is changing, comparing the kinds of signings made even 5-10 years ago to now is likely as poor a comparison as comparing then to the 80s.

[Ambitious]

The correlation in the data looks minimal at best, and on basis shows basically nothing. There's no clear trend and any fitting value from that is probably atrocious. Throw in working off a vague assumption that teams with more foreign players will play more foreign players (even with some teams having more than 14 foreign players) and it becomes clear that there is very little meaning to this. This should be clear enough though as the "trend line" moves from 8th to 6th across the 24 positions. If anything you're shown that the number of foreign players is largely irrelevant, but a more complete analysis should be done before any such conclusions can be drawn.

Honest, I think it's silly to correlate where players come from to team performance. We aren't limited by where players come from, we're limited by the funds available to go for our prime targets at key times.

 

I actually think it'll become easier to attract players over-seas than it will players here soon, as a club, in england we're becoming known as the middle of the road championship club and players will stray away from that, if given another opportunity! Whereas players from over-seas aren't likely to see or know about all that, what they will see is a large stadium, with a good core fan base and fantastic facilities and think this is a good club to be at.

 

I would argue the fact, that for players coming over-seas we are one of the most attractive clubs in the division! I would exploit the ignorance. 

[Albert]

In my experience, due to the popularity of the Premier League, many people still instantly associate Derby with that season, and as such I seriously doubt that foreign players wouldn't know at least something about us. That said, the days of foreign players being the cheap option have come and gone from what I've seen and it's probably about time we realise that.

[Derbiean]

Even so the wider you scout the better chance of you finding those hidden gems.

[CumbrianRam]

I honestly couldn't care less when the players come from, don't see why it is important to have a team full of British players like some fans think it is.

[Albert]

Even so the wider you scout the better chance of you finding those hidden gems.

If you spread your scouting too thin you're unlikely to get the best talent from where you've looked. There are arguments for both sides.

[Albert]

I honestly couldn't care less when the players come from, don't see why it is important to have a team full of British players like some fans think it is.

I also don't see the reason why people would want an all British team, but at the same time, I also don't get a "we need more foreigners" attitude. We should sign the best players we can, where ever they come from.

[Bris Vegas]

I would love to see us move into different markets for players, but, I suppose at the minute you've got pretty much all british team and communication and understanding is easy, and, I think that shows (about 70% of the time) 

 

I do think we would be better off looking at a wider spectrum of players, at the end of the day - you only need 4/5 good players in this division to get somewhere, I don't see much of the lower leagues from different countries but surely it can't be much worse than the reactive, limited creativity and limited ability of the championship - I would, however, argue that the English game at the top 2 levels is very athletic and any player you would look to bring over would need to be athletic, in terms of strength, speed and stamina. 

 

Bueno is a fine example, as a player technically he would of been on of the top in the division - no-one could really argue that, he had a style which oozed technique, and ability. However, he disappeared in games all to easily and as a player he didn't cover much ground and pretty much wandered into holes and pockets. This sort of player as fantastic as he is, we need to stay away from - the easiest way of being successful in this league and how what would be my first concern would be stamina! If you have 11 players all with the ability to just keep pressing, and pushing and still look fresh in the last 10 minutes, you'll win games at this level - definitely! 

 

Bueno is the exact sort of player that we do need..

 

He was up there with the best in the NPC.. If he was playing for Swansea or a Brighton then he would have been fantastic.. He was excellent for 2 months or so, one of the best players in the league..

 

Then Nigel went hoofball around xmas time and he simply didn't fit into a side wanting to play the ball 20 feet over his head rather than to his feet.. Nigel ruined him and that season with his ameturish negative don't lose at all cost hoofball.

[AndyinLiverpool]

Don't we just need better players?

Who cares where they come from.

Anyway, Sammon, O'Brien and Hendrick are all foreign. That's quite a contribution from foreign players. (I'm not counting Keogh, who's from Essex or somesuch place)

[Albert]

Don't we just need better players?

Who cares where they come from.

Anyway, Sammon, O'Brien and Hendrick are all foreign. That's quite a contribution from foreign players. (I'm not counting Keogh, who's from Essex or somesuch place)

I'm pretty sure his original post counted all players from the UK and Ireland as "non-foreign". I'm currently going a little count of my own using last season, the most interesting point so far is that the total number of foreign players at a club seems to be a poor indicator of how much they were actually use. The definition of foreign for my own analysis is that players from the UK and Ireland are not counted as foreign. Interestingly, by that definition it seems we stick out as a team that used pretty much no "foreign" players, with a total of only around 940 minutes on the pitch between them compared to around ~5-15k minutes for most other teams so far, although I'm only half way down the table.

[AndyinLiverpool]

I'm pretty sure his original post counted all players from the UK and Ireland as "non-foreign". I'm currently going a little count of my own using last season, the most interesting point so far is that the total number of foreign players at a club seems to be a poor indicator of how much they were actually use. The definition of foreign for my own analysis is that players from the UK and Ireland are not counted as foreign.

So we get to pick and choose which nationalities count as foreign?

Kind of holes the credibility of the argument below the waterline, don't you think?