Ravabeerbelly

I’ll try and be brief without using one liners or being too controversial….don’t want to upset the apple cart further ?
My biggest bug bear is immediate and over the top reactions to players on their first few appearances and the subsequent questions / criticisms that arise a few games later about what they can’t do. It’s so typically ‘English’ and it’s so dated and archaic.
The easiest games a young player will ever play as a pro, are his first 2/3. He’s driven on adrenalin, enthusiasm, no fear and a complete lack of any kind of expectation from those watching. Everything he does is a bonus and his focus and eagerness to do the right thing and follow instructions overrides everything.
After that it only gets harder until you have played 60/70 games! Those next 30/40 are riddled with ups and downs and more and more public criticism than they’ve ever had in their lives and more than most slip away and never have a career. 
Im critical and I’ve seen the process many times, which is why I try not to fall into the ‘sweeping statements’ camp early on. 
My other bug bear is when there is no understanding of the players capabilities or their limitations and after the initial few appearances of doing the simple things….or the things they are capable of…people then criticise them for not doing things they’ve never done in the first place. A prime example being when people started to question if Thompson could score goals or if he had a shot on him…..
I think we have to be realistic and say that not one of them would have in normal circumstances have had their chance this early had it not been for the circumstances and probably realistic to say they wouldn’t have commanded a regular place at any other Championship side. However it’s probably also fair to say that in the short term none of them have looked out of place or been anything other than a credit to themselves or the club.
I include the lads early season that played Carabao Cup games in that too and in many of those cases they out performed some of their counterparts but were never given other opportunity's.

Realistically, Festy is the only one I’d consider a serious contender for selection each week with a fully fit squad. I have my reservations on Festy however and much depends on where he wants to end up playing. If he wants to be a full back, the skys the limit. He reminds me a lot of Reece James with a more devastating turn of pace. Defensively that’ll put him on the Ashley Cole category and I think he’ll play in the Prem. As a winger though I’m not so sure. I don’t think he has the technical ability to mix up his game and he doesn’t have the touch and awareness to play inside the wide areas like many wide attackers are asked to do. 
Plange is a player I highlighted as someone I liked early on this season. Before he scored regular goals in the 23s and long before he was anywhere near a 1st team picture. However I don’t see him as a no 9. He doesn’t have either the pace to really trouble top defenders in behind and he’s not proficient enough in the air to provide an alternative to that. He does have great technical ability though and I see him as an inside forward….a 7/10/11 playing in pockets.
My other observations may not be popular….
Cashin I’m not convinced is a Championship player. Saturday as I said will be the easiest game of his football life and Peterborough the kindest of opposition for any debut making Centre back. I think he’ll have a pro career but maybe not in the Championship. 
 
Liam Thompson did brilliantly for several games but if I’m honest the reaction was way over the top and we’re largely driven by the occasion - Bournemouth on live TV - and the result - a cracking win! Another example of the first few games being the easiest. When questions were asked of him and other teams put more pressure on him in possession he’s found it difficult. He still has lots of developing to do but there are lots of players that play his role and and I’m not sure what will set him apart from others….funnily enough it’s done him a favour being at Derby and how they play and in the championship. League 1 or 2 will have seen him swallowed whole.
Another factor largely driving fans perception of player performance, particularly on young players is the result! A 3-0 drubbing gives nowhere near the same perception of an individual performance as a hard earn 1-0 win….regardless of individual player input…as players like Brown, McDonald, Watson, Hutchinson found after the Carabao Cup loss to Sheff Utd.

You’ve looked through my last 15 posts on one thread? Well that’s balanced.
Because I choose to make informed, balanced comments based on my own opinion from watching the games, instead of using over inflated, over excited hyperbole to describe someone I’ve read about on Twitter or seen as a sub for 3 mins when we were 3-0 down?
Funnily enough I checked out your posts from the previous twenty pages of just your posts…..and it seems you have an opinion on everything from Covid, to admin, to TV to the weather. Granted you’ve contributed articulately and thoughtfully on all those, but the one topic I’ve barely seen you post an opinion on the actual football match or the footballer other than post match ratings where it’s acceptable to mark a player out of 10 without understanding or commenting  on any of the nuances that contribute to it.
You may not agree with my comments or indeed like them but all I’m doing is posting an opinion and while it’s sometimes harsh it’s never scathing, abusive or vindictive. But it is after all a football forum and honest opinions, even if unpopular, are what it is for. However none of my comments on young players are even close to some of what I’ve read on matchday threads when things are going badly including some aimed at one or two of the younger players.
You may not like them but my comments are anything but ignorant or ill informed. I’ve been inside pro football as a player and a coach. I’ve coached several current pros inc premier league players and been in youth development at a Category 1 academy. I could discuss the finer points all day long but in a forum it often comes across differently in short one line observations.
But fwiw, our predicament at the moment is in danger of harming as many players as it aids. Players fast tracked into 23s or 1st team football too soon often on the back of some promising performances at U18s level isn’t always good. Robinson for example may well end up a decent player but trust me when I say he’s finding U23s football hard and keeping his head above water by keeping the game simple and trying not to make mistakes isn’t good for him on the long run and in 2/3 years time when someone is criticising him for not having more tools on his toolbox of game skills and asking why he doesn’t play forwards more often, or break lines with his passing it’ll be because he was being asked to play at a level too high too soon and wasn’t able to take risks, try things out, spend time on the ball and make mistakes. He’s not the only one either.
This is the very reason why someone like Louie Watson isn’t being rushed into the first team where the pressure to retain possession and not ‘cost the team’ by taking a risk is much greater and as much as he may not like it right now, he’ll be a better player for being given a little more time where he is. I’ve seen the criticism of Max Bird…and it won’t be long before the same people say the same things about Liam Thompson. 
I’m happy to talk football all day. But don’t expect to like or agree with me, which is fine, but likewise don’t criticise me for how I express an opinion. 

Can you two stop flirting and just get a room?

No it didn’t. The origin of the conversation was in respect of over critical or over blunt comments in respect of a players performance. The conversations regarding the reasons for players like Gordon and Kellyman being fast tracked for reasons beyond their current performance (not potential, that isn’t a reason for first team selection) was a completely different conversation. Don’t twist that to make your argument suit the current point. 

In respect of the others you mention, I don’t think Robinson is ready yet for the 23s and stand by it and Ebuowei hadn’t been picked for the 23s at that point and so 1st team selection, in my opinion, makes no sense when it’s based on U18s football. That’s just my opinion and maybe needs must but I fail to see the point of a 18>23>1st team progression if stages are skipped for no reason. There was no reason for him not to have played 23s he was tearing up 18s long before a first team selection. The opportunity to push him onto the 23s weeks ago was there.
But as I said, that’s a different discussion and not the one in question.
True or not, it was a statement (maybe an exaggeration) to make a point. He, in my opinion is finding life in the 23s hard and again in my opinion it’s damaging to his development to be in a situation where he can’t develop the other skills required to be a player. His passing range is limited (at the moment) and it was in response to the claim that he “likes to spray the ball around”.
The 2% is in relation to the level or standard of player in academies. They are in the top 2% of footballers of their age in the country. Assuming of course the scouting networks are the clubs are doing their jobs which given the resources and expertise available we have to assume they are. Of course it has its nuances as players develop and stop developing but this accounts for then being released and players developing late and being taken on. The fact is though it’s a well known figure that less than 1% of academy footballers make a career out of playing football. It’s not my figure. I haven’t made it up. It’s a well published fact.
Regardless of what you say, there are not more success than failures. Again that’s not an opinion it is a fact. 
Your point is not well and truly proven at all. Firstly it’s still a work in progress however you want to flower it up. I personally know players who made over 100 football league appearances and were playing in the Northern Premier before they were 24! The games riddled with them! I also know players who made similar amount of appearances that were policeman and not playing football at all by the same age! 
I didn’t ‘direct’ any discussion away or towards anything for any other reason other than it evolved into what it did. What it is now is a point proving exercise by all involved, myself included and now you also.  There’s no need. It was just information. 
The points weren’t irrelevant at all. The conversation evolved into a discussion about academy football. At derby or elsewhere. It’s only relevant to the point that’s salient at that time, to that poster. Surely?
1. I didn’t say he never makes a forward pass. I said when he does it normally results in going off the pitch. (ie losing possession) Harsh I agree and maybe said with tongue in cheek has a different context. 
However….
2. It isn’t that inaccurate. Watch the games again and count. I reckon 2/3 forward passes per game and 50/50 success rate.
3. That’s not his fault. He’s playing in a level that he’s finding hard to find the time to pick his head up and see the forward pass and has little or no choice if he wants to retain possession. Which is why it’s not always good to be in this position as a club. It’s beneficial to some, some of the time. It’s not always good for others, all of the time.
So yes maybe I’d rephrase given the opportunity to review it….but yes I stand by the point I was making. 
 
I respect your views Ghost. You’re a poster I like reading but this has been taken to personally like an attack on the Derby County academy when it wasn’t meant as anything of the sort.
However once the club is bought and a new owner demands promotion and offers the manager funds to do so, even Derby’s impressive numbers in respect of the academy will take a tumble.
That’s just how football is.

Like I want to post my CV on here ?

That was quite difficult to watch tonight tbh. The first half was pretty shocking defensively, Millwall looked dangerous every time they came forward. Cashin looked out of his depth and the shape fell to pieces too easily with Millwall overloading, stretching and then putting it in the middle to find a man. They could have scored 4 in the first half and the midfield struggled to manage the midfield of the park. On the attacking side, at times we did look dangerous but this didn't happen often enough. 

In the second half, it was clear Millwall backed off, let us have the ball and take their chances that we couldn't break through. That is often the Achilles hell of rowetball, it's programmed to suck up the pressure it can at times negate the attacking display that is possible. The few times they did go forward we again didn't look like we could really contain them tbh. I thought we didn't look like we could lay a glove on them. Plange and Colin didn't work well as a 2 tonight really and we couldn't get a way in behind. 

I do think we are starting to run out of steam. They looked tired, out of ideas and couldn't pull themselves out of first gear. I'm not saying the great escape is over but this could be the beginning of the end of the story. The lack of fresh bodies and a slight uptick in form from reading could be what dooms us to league 1 next season. Being 8 points adrift with 13 to play is difficult to overcome and we'll need every point we can muster at home as our away form has been pretty poor all season. 

Disappointed but not surprised have been playing with the bare bones of a squad for too long and lost to a well organised tough team. Despite that we dominated the second half but missed Lawrence for his work rate and ability to create from nothing. Shame Sibley was shown to lack the physical presence and awareness to start a game, better coming on when teams are stretched and tired. Don’t understand this continued vitriol towards Rowett et al, we need to get over it. If affected what up to tonight has been such a positive atmosphere. As for the ref thought he had a decent game and let it flow, a couple of times the linesman should have flagged for fouls my only gripe. Time wasting all teams do it and all refs let it happen if we had been leading it would have been the same and applauded. First goal was poor defending why no wall? Second they got the luck of the bounce and really could have been 3 up by half time. We just need to move on it is not over yet and I saw no player out there not giving his all. COYR

Played a little over 60 seconds of the injury time. 
Player wastes 20 seconds
Ref spends 40 seconds telling him off for wasting time. Then doesn't add it on

A lot of negativity on here but we fight to the end. And we really are. Full credit to the team for that. We've had 9 corners to their 1. And 13 shots to their 8. Don't think it's been as bad as some are making out. We miss Tom's magic for sure. But something might yet happen.

I’ll try and be brief without using one liners or being too controversial….don’t want to upset the apple cart further ?
My biggest bug bear is immediate and over the top reactions to players on their first few appearances and the subsequent questions / criticisms that arise a few games later about what they can’t do. It’s so typically ‘English’ and it’s so dated and archaic.
The easiest games a young player will ever play as a pro, are his first 2/3. He’s driven on adrenalin, enthusiasm, no fear and a complete lack of any kind of expectation from those watching. Everything he does is a bonus and his focus and eagerness to do the right thing and follow instructions overrides everything.
After that it only gets harder until you have played 60/70 games! Those next 30/40 are riddled with ups and downs and more and more public criticism than they’ve ever had in their lives and more than most slip away and never have a career. 
Im critical and I’ve seen the process many times, which is why I try not to fall into the ‘sweeping statements’ camp early on. 
My other bug bear is when there is no understanding of the players capabilities or their limitations and after the initial few appearances of doing the simple things….or the things they are capable of…people then criticise them for not doing things they’ve never done in the first place. A prime example being when people started to question if Thompson could score goals or if he had a shot on him…..
I think we have to be realistic and say that not one of them would have in normal circumstances have had their chance this early had it not been for the circumstances and probably realistic to say they wouldn’t have commanded a regular place at any other Championship side. However it’s probably also fair to say that in the short term none of them have looked out of place or been anything other than a credit to themselves or the club.
I include the lads early season that played Carabao Cup games in that too and in many of those cases they out performed some of their counterparts but were never given other opportunity's.

Realistically, Festy is the only one I’d consider a serious contender for selection each week with a fully fit squad. I have my reservations on Festy however and much depends on where he wants to end up playing. If he wants to be a full back, the skys the limit. He reminds me a lot of Reece James with a more devastating turn of pace. Defensively that’ll put him on the Ashley Cole category and I think he’ll play in the Prem. As a winger though I’m not so sure. I don’t think he has the technical ability to mix up his game and he doesn’t have the touch and awareness to play inside the wide areas like many wide attackers are asked to do. 
Plange is a player I highlighted as someone I liked early on this season. Before he scored regular goals in the 23s and long before he was anywhere near a 1st team picture. However I don’t see him as a no 9. He doesn’t have either the pace to really trouble top defenders in behind and he’s not proficient enough in the air to provide an alternative to that. He does have great technical ability though and I see him as an inside forward….a 7/10/11 playing in pockets.
My other observations may not be popular….
Cashin I’m not convinced is a Championship player. Saturday as I said will be the easiest game of his football life and Peterborough the kindest of opposition for any debut making Centre back. I think he’ll have a pro career but maybe not in the Championship. 
 
Liam Thompson did brilliantly for several games but if I’m honest the reaction was way over the top and we’re largely driven by the occasion - Bournemouth on live TV - and the result - a cracking win! Another example of the first few games being the easiest. When questions were asked of him and other teams put more pressure on him in possession he’s found it difficult. He still has lots of developing to do but there are lots of players that play his role and and I’m not sure what will set him apart from others….funnily enough it’s done him a favour being at Derby and how they play and in the championship. League 1 or 2 will have seen him swallowed whole.
Another factor largely driving fans perception of player performance, particularly on young players is the result! A 3-0 drubbing gives nowhere near the same perception of an individual performance as a hard earn 1-0 win….regardless of individual player input…as players like Brown, McDonald, Watson, Hutchinson found after the Carabao Cup loss to Sheff Utd.

92 football league clubs are allowed a maximum of 250 players in their academy at any one time. Some won’t fill that quota of course. But even allowing for that that’s approx 20,000 players….
Im not sure I have it in me to even comprehend the math as it’s an extremely nuanced process but there’s a constant trickle down effect with players being released from each age group every year.
However at the top end, at best, only half of the U16s will receive scholarships, possibly less than a third depending on the club and whether they have invested in Irish or European players that weren’t ever part of the English academy system. At the club I worked at they only planned on taking 4-6 scholars from their own system each season despite the u16s squad being as large as 18 players. The rest would be made up from released players from other clubs and foreign youngsters.
From the scholarship group of 20 players (approx) made up of two year groups maybe only 4-6 are given pro deals, often less than that. From those half dozen players 1 or 2 may make first team appearances within their pro contract period and even from those that do, not many will go on to earn a living and make a career out the game. 
It’s why I refuse to get over excited, despite the number of players currently getting opportunities here at Derby County, of the prospects of where or what level they’ll all end up playing. I’ve seen too many ‘dead certs’ disappear and I’ve seen players with 40/50 games under their belts move on and never get another pro deal anywhere.
Making a debut is one thing but given the reasons why so many are making debuts the chances of them going on and having full careers are still incredibly low. The numbers we are currently seeing at our club are incredibly warped for obvious reasons.
There are 92 clubs all bursting at the seams  with pro footballers all bursting at the seams financially with budgets that are overblown. To take players in they have to offer something their current players don’t offer and that’s hard for young players who are caught in a chicken and egg situation of needing experience and having no experience…..clubs with a tight budget (most of them) are balancing the books and weighing up possible sell ons with results and staying alive. 
None of that even considers the sheer number of unemployed ex pro footballers there are who are still at an age where they aren’t considered retired!
Pro football is an obscenely, disgustingly cut throat, horrible business. In favour one moment cast aside the next, for no apparent reason. It’s why I never ever begrudge a player of any age striking while the iron is hot when a club shows interest. It’s not disloyal it’s fighting fire with fire. I’ve seen players playing regularly and attracting interest from another club, to be cast aside or lose form and the club that was desperate to keep them dont want them and the club that was desperate to take them…don’t want them….all in the space of 4 months!!!

92 football league clubs are allowed a maximum of 250 players in their academy at any one time. Some won’t fill that quota of course. But even allowing for that that’s approx 20,000 players….
Im not sure I have it in me to even comprehend the math as it’s an extremely nuanced process but there’s a constant trickle down effect with players being released from each age group every year.
However at the top end, at best, only half of the U16s will receive scholarships, possibly less than a third depending on the club and whether they have invested in Irish or European players that weren’t ever part of the English academy system. At the club I worked at they only planned on taking 4-6 scholars from their own system each season despite the u16s squad being as large as 18 players. The rest would be made up from released players from other clubs and foreign youngsters.
From the scholarship group of 20 players (approx) made up of two year groups maybe only 4-6 are given pro deals, often less than that. From those half dozen players 1 or 2 may make first team appearances within their pro contract period and even from those that do, not many will go on to earn a living and make a career out the game. 
It’s why I refuse to get over excited, despite the number of players currently getting opportunities here at Derby County, of the prospects of where or what level they’ll all end up playing. I’ve seen too many ‘dead certs’ disappear and I’ve seen players with 40/50 games under their belts move on and never get another pro deal anywhere.
Making a debut is one thing but given the reasons why so many are making debuts the chances of them going on and having full careers are still incredibly low. The numbers we are currently seeing at our club are incredibly warped for obvious reasons.
There are 92 clubs all bursting at the seams  with pro footballers all bursting at the seams financially with budgets that are overblown. To take players in they have to offer something their current players don’t offer and that’s hard for young players who are caught in a chicken and egg situation of needing experience and having no experience…..clubs with a tight budget (most of them) are balancing the books and weighing up possible sell ons with results and staying alive. 
None of that even considers the sheer number of unemployed ex pro footballers there are who are still at an age where they aren’t considered retired!
Pro football is an obscenely, disgustingly cut throat, horrible business. In favour one moment cast aside the next, for no apparent reason. It’s why I never ever begrudge a player of any age striking while the iron is hot when a club shows interest. It’s not disloyal it’s fighting fire with fire. I’ve seen players playing regularly and attracting interest from another club, to be cast aside or lose form and the club that was desperate to keep them dont want them and the club that was desperate to take them…don’t want them….all in the space of 4 months!!!

92 football league clubs are allowed a maximum of 250 players in their academy at any one time. Some won’t fill that quota of course. But even allowing for that that’s approx 20,000 players….
Im not sure I have it in me to even comprehend the math as it’s an extremely nuanced process but there’s a constant trickle down effect with players being released from each age group every year.
However at the top end, at best, only half of the U16s will receive scholarships, possibly less than a third depending on the club and whether they have invested in Irish or European players that weren’t ever part of the English academy system. At the club I worked at they only planned on taking 4-6 scholars from their own system each season despite the u16s squad being as large as 18 players. The rest would be made up from released players from other clubs and foreign youngsters.
From the scholarship group of 20 players (approx) made up of two year groups maybe only 4-6 are given pro deals, often less than that. From those half dozen players 1 or 2 may make first team appearances within their pro contract period and even from those that do, not many will go on to earn a living and make a career out the game. 
It’s why I refuse to get over excited, despite the number of players currently getting opportunities here at Derby County, of the prospects of where or what level they’ll all end up playing. I’ve seen too many ‘dead certs’ disappear and I’ve seen players with 40/50 games under their belts move on and never get another pro deal anywhere.
Making a debut is one thing but given the reasons why so many are making debuts the chances of them going on and having full careers are still incredibly low. The numbers we are currently seeing at our club are incredibly warped for obvious reasons.
There are 92 clubs all bursting at the seams  with pro footballers all bursting at the seams financially with budgets that are overblown. To take players in they have to offer something their current players don’t offer and that’s hard for young players who are caught in a chicken and egg situation of needing experience and having no experience…..clubs with a tight budget (most of them) are balancing the books and weighing up possible sell ons with results and staying alive. 
None of that even considers the sheer number of unemployed ex pro footballers there are who are still at an age where they aren’t considered retired!
Pro football is an obscenely, disgustingly cut throat, horrible business. In favour one moment cast aside the next, for no apparent reason. It’s why I never ever begrudge a player of any age striking while the iron is hot when a club shows interest. It’s not disloyal it’s fighting fire with fire. I’ve seen players playing regularly and attracting interest from another club, to be cast aside or lose form and the club that was desperate to keep them dont want them and the club that was desperate to take them…don’t want them….all in the space of 4 months!!!

And after all that self indulgent nonsense, you’re funny too ?

I’ll try and be brief without using one liners or being too controversial….don’t want to upset the apple cart further ?
My biggest bug bear is immediate and over the top reactions to players on their first few appearances and the subsequent questions / criticisms that arise a few games later about what they can’t do. It’s so typically ‘English’ and it’s so dated and archaic.
The easiest games a young player will ever play as a pro, are his first 2/3. He’s driven on adrenalin, enthusiasm, no fear and a complete lack of any kind of expectation from those watching. Everything he does is a bonus and his focus and eagerness to do the right thing and follow instructions overrides everything.
After that it only gets harder until you have played 60/70 games! Those next 30/40 are riddled with ups and downs and more and more public criticism than they’ve ever had in their lives and more than most slip away and never have a career. 
Im critical and I’ve seen the process many times, which is why I try not to fall into the ‘sweeping statements’ camp early on. 
My other bug bear is when there is no understanding of the players capabilities or their limitations and after the initial few appearances of doing the simple things….or the things they are capable of…people then criticise them for not doing things they’ve never done in the first place. A prime example being when people started to question if Thompson could score goals or if he had a shot on him…..
I think we have to be realistic and say that not one of them would have in normal circumstances have had their chance this early had it not been for the circumstances and probably realistic to say they wouldn’t have commanded a regular place at any other Championship side. However it’s probably also fair to say that in the short term none of them have looked out of place or been anything other than a credit to themselves or the club.
I include the lads early season that played Carabao Cup games in that too and in many of those cases they out performed some of their counterparts but were never given other opportunity's.

Realistically, Festy is the only one I’d consider a serious contender for selection each week with a fully fit squad. I have my reservations on Festy however and much depends on where he wants to end up playing. If he wants to be a full back, the skys the limit. He reminds me a lot of Reece James with a more devastating turn of pace. Defensively that’ll put him on the Ashley Cole category and I think he’ll play in the Prem. As a winger though I’m not so sure. I don’t think he has the technical ability to mix up his game and he doesn’t have the touch and awareness to play inside the wide areas like many wide attackers are asked to do. 
Plange is a player I highlighted as someone I liked early on this season. Before he scored regular goals in the 23s and long before he was anywhere near a 1st team picture. However I don’t see him as a no 9. He doesn’t have either the pace to really trouble top defenders in behind and he’s not proficient enough in the air to provide an alternative to that. He does have great technical ability though and I see him as an inside forward….a 7/10/11 playing in pockets.
My other observations may not be popular….
Cashin I’m not convinced is a Championship player. Saturday as I said will be the easiest game of his football life and Peterborough the kindest of opposition for any debut making Centre back. I think he’ll have a pro career but maybe not in the Championship. 
 
Liam Thompson did brilliantly for several games but if I’m honest the reaction was way over the top and we’re largely driven by the occasion - Bournemouth on live TV - and the result - a cracking win! Another example of the first few games being the easiest. When questions were asked of him and other teams put more pressure on him in possession he’s found it difficult. He still has lots of developing to do but there are lots of players that play his role and and I’m not sure what will set him apart from others….funnily enough it’s done him a favour being at Derby and how they play and in the championship. League 1 or 2 will have seen him swallowed whole.
Another factor largely driving fans perception of player performance, particularly on young players is the result! A 3-0 drubbing gives nowhere near the same perception of an individual performance as a hard earn 1-0 win….regardless of individual player input…as players like Brown, McDonald, Watson, Hutchinson found after the Carabao Cup loss to Sheff Utd.

I’ll try and be brief without using one liners or being too controversial….don’t want to upset the apple cart further ?
My biggest bug bear is immediate and over the top reactions to players on their first few appearances and the subsequent questions / criticisms that arise a few games later about what they can’t do. It’s so typically ‘English’ and it’s so dated and archaic.
The easiest games a young player will ever play as a pro, are his first 2/3. He’s driven on adrenalin, enthusiasm, no fear and a complete lack of any kind of expectation from those watching. Everything he does is a bonus and his focus and eagerness to do the right thing and follow instructions overrides everything.
After that it only gets harder until you have played 60/70 games! Those next 30/40 are riddled with ups and downs and more and more public criticism than they’ve ever had in their lives and more than most slip away and never have a career. 
Im critical and I’ve seen the process many times, which is why I try not to fall into the ‘sweeping statements’ camp early on. 
My other bug bear is when there is no understanding of the players capabilities or their limitations and after the initial few appearances of doing the simple things….or the things they are capable of…people then criticise them for not doing things they’ve never done in the first place. A prime example being when people started to question if Thompson could score goals or if he had a shot on him…..
I think we have to be realistic and say that not one of them would have in normal circumstances have had their chance this early had it not been for the circumstances and probably realistic to say they wouldn’t have commanded a regular place at any other Championship side. However it’s probably also fair to say that in the short term none of them have looked out of place or been anything other than a credit to themselves or the club.
I include the lads early season that played Carabao Cup games in that too and in many of those cases they out performed some of their counterparts but were never given other opportunity's.

Realistically, Festy is the only one I’d consider a serious contender for selection each week with a fully fit squad. I have my reservations on Festy however and much depends on where he wants to end up playing. If he wants to be a full back, the skys the limit. He reminds me a lot of Reece James with a more devastating turn of pace. Defensively that’ll put him on the Ashley Cole category and I think he’ll play in the Prem. As a winger though I’m not so sure. I don’t think he has the technical ability to mix up his game and he doesn’t have the touch and awareness to play inside the wide areas like many wide attackers are asked to do. 
Plange is a player I highlighted as someone I liked early on this season. Before he scored regular goals in the 23s and long before he was anywhere near a 1st team picture. However I don’t see him as a no 9. He doesn’t have either the pace to really trouble top defenders in behind and he’s not proficient enough in the air to provide an alternative to that. He does have great technical ability though and I see him as an inside forward….a 7/10/11 playing in pockets.
My other observations may not be popular….
Cashin I’m not convinced is a Championship player. Saturday as I said will be the easiest game of his football life and Peterborough the kindest of opposition for any debut making Centre back. I think he’ll have a pro career but maybe not in the Championship. 
 
Liam Thompson did brilliantly for several games but if I’m honest the reaction was way over the top and we’re largely driven by the occasion - Bournemouth on live TV - and the result - a cracking win! Another example of the first few games being the easiest. When questions were asked of him and other teams put more pressure on him in possession he’s found it difficult. He still has lots of developing to do but there are lots of players that play his role and and I’m not sure what will set him apart from others….funnily enough it’s done him a favour being at Derby and how they play and in the championship. League 1 or 2 will have seen him swallowed whole.
Another factor largely driving fans perception of player performance, particularly on young players is the result! A 3-0 drubbing gives nowhere near the same perception of an individual performance as a hard earn 1-0 win….regardless of individual player input…as players like Brown, McDonald, Watson, Hutchinson found after the Carabao Cup loss to Sheff Utd.

You’ve looked through my last 15 posts on one thread? Well that’s balanced.
Because I choose to make informed, balanced comments based on my own opinion from watching the games, instead of using over inflated, over excited hyperbole to describe someone I’ve read about on Twitter or seen as a sub for 3 mins when we were 3-0 down?
Funnily enough I checked out your posts from the previous twenty pages of just your posts…..and it seems you have an opinion on everything from Covid, to admin, to TV to the weather. Granted you’ve contributed articulately and thoughtfully on all those, but the one topic I’ve barely seen you post an opinion on the actual football match or the footballer other than post match ratings where it’s acceptable to mark a player out of 10 without understanding or commenting  on any of the nuances that contribute to it.
You may not agree with my comments or indeed like them but all I’m doing is posting an opinion and while it’s sometimes harsh it’s never scathing, abusive or vindictive. But it is after all a football forum and honest opinions, even if unpopular, are what it is for. However none of my comments on young players are even close to some of what I’ve read on matchday threads when things are going badly including some aimed at one or two of the younger players.
You may not like them but my comments are anything but ignorant or ill informed. I’ve been inside pro football as a player and a coach. I’ve coached several current pros inc premier league players and been in youth development at a Category 1 academy. I could discuss the finer points all day long but in a forum it often comes across differently in short one line observations.
But fwiw, our predicament at the moment is in danger of harming as many players as it aids. Players fast tracked into 23s or 1st team football too soon often on the back of some promising performances at U18s level isn’t always good. Robinson for example may well end up a decent player but trust me when I say he’s finding U23s football hard and keeping his head above water by keeping the game simple and trying not to make mistakes isn’t good for him on the long run and in 2/3 years time when someone is criticising him for not having more tools on his toolbox of game skills and asking why he doesn’t play forwards more often, or break lines with his passing it’ll be because he was being asked to play at a level too high too soon and wasn’t able to take risks, try things out, spend time on the ball and make mistakes. He’s not the only one either.
This is the very reason why someone like Louie Watson isn’t being rushed into the first team where the pressure to retain possession and not ‘cost the team’ by taking a risk is much greater and as much as he may not like it right now, he’ll be a better player for being given a little more time where he is. I’ve seen the criticism of Max Bird…and it won’t be long before the same people say the same things about Liam Thompson. 
I’m happy to talk football all day. But don’t expect to like or agree with me, which is fine, but likewise don’t criticise me for how I express an opinion. 

And after all that self indulgent nonsense, you’re funny too ?

What wasn’t? Explaining in more detail the previous comments made in game in shortened form? Of course it’s not hard. Anyone can explain in detail, a topic they understand to help someone who doesn’t understand so well! What’s hard is writing it in short form well enough for them to understand!
You’re including Cashin Thompson and Plange in the same success category as the others after a handful of combined games? There’s my point from above right there! 
There we go. The line only someone who, has never coached and never understood the nuances and difficulty involved in stepping onto the grass and helping someone become a better player, makes ?
Its a little more skilled than watching a games and saying he’s good and he isn’t.
They’re in a safe place. They play and train every day in that safe space that no fans have access to. That’s where they do their learning. Are you fool enough to think any of them read a fans forum ??
It may not add anything to a debate you want any part of but that doesn’t mean I have no right to observe it and post it. That’s a football forum and as I said before it’s not particularly scathing and it’s definitely not insulting. If I’m paying to watch a 23s game in my own home I’m perfectly at liberty to post my observations on the game or the players providing it’s not, as I said earlier insulting or abusive. 
No let’s all just tell them they’re mini gods and made it already. Let’s let everyone not watching, read how wonderful things are when they aren’t. 
There’s a terribly condescending and patronising tone to your posts. Ironic really given your comments to me.
Not at all. I’ve never suggested there was a lack of knowledge in any posters. Quite the contrary in fact. This forum demonstrates there are many many posters who display excellent knowledge of the game and of players and most definitely the club. I enjoy reading many of the posters work on here, before during and after games. I don’t always agree with them but you’ll be hard pressed to dig up a post where I’ve dismissed someone else’s opinion as not being credible or worthy of posting it. 

My point may have implied that I feel you don’t have that understanding or it could also imply that you don’t / can’t or won’t spend the time analyzing games or performances objectively or not. Either way I’m not fussed, you could be Jose Mourinho for all I care, I just don’t like the fact you clearly feel I shouldn’t unless it’s to say something or someone was good.
If their reasons for being on here are more emotional reasons then it makes no sense for you to get upset when I said exactly that, and that it was perfectly normal, only for you to accuse me of being patronising. Make your mind up.
I haven’t written anyone off. Not the posters or the players. I feel many of them are being asked to play at a level they aren’t capable of yet but I’ve posted my reasoning behind that. Feel free to challenge that. 
I wasn’t trying to impress anyone with my posts or my knowledge. Which is precisely why I kept them short and sweet and lacking any real detail. Again feel free to discuss in more depth if you wish. I can talk development and coaching all day. But let’s do it via DMs shall we as I have no more inclination to bore people or ruin a thread than you do.
Good luck to you. That’s your prerogative and fair play to you for being so nice, trust me I know for a fact there aren’t enough people like you around pro football. But maybe if there were it wouldn’t be so exhilarating and divisive and not so many people would enjoy it. 
Enjoying my evening just fine. Watching a selection of League 1/2 football tonight. Just to keep my horizons and understanding as broad as I can.
 

What wasn’t? Explaining in more detail the previous comments made in game in shortened form? Of course it’s not hard. Anyone can explain in detail, a topic they understand to help someone who doesn’t understand so well! What’s hard is writing it in short form well enough for them to understand!
You’re including Cashin Thompson and Plange in the same success category as the others after a handful of combined games? There’s my point from above right there! 
There we go. The line only someone who, has never coached and never understood the nuances and difficulty involved in stepping onto the grass and helping someone become a better player, makes ?
Its a little more skilled than watching a games and saying he’s good and he isn’t.
They’re in a safe place. They play and train every day in that safe space that no fans have access to. That’s where they do their learning. Are you fool enough to think any of them read a fans forum ??
It may not add anything to a debate you want any part of but that doesn’t mean I have no right to observe it and post it. That’s a football forum and as I said before it’s not particularly scathing and it’s definitely not insulting. If I’m paying to watch a 23s game in my own home I’m perfectly at liberty to post my observations on the game or the players providing it’s not, as I said earlier insulting or abusive. 
No let’s all just tell them they’re mini gods and made it already. Let’s let everyone not watching, read how wonderful things are when they aren’t. 
There’s a terribly condescending and patronising tone to your posts. Ironic really given your comments to me.
Not at all. I’ve never suggested there was a lack of knowledge in any posters. Quite the contrary in fact. This forum demonstrates there are many many posters who display excellent knowledge of the game and of players and most definitely the club. I enjoy reading many of the posters work on here, before during and after games. I don’t always agree with them but you’ll be hard pressed to dig up a post where I’ve dismissed someone else’s opinion as not being credible or worthy of posting it. 

My point may have implied that I feel you don’t have that understanding or it could also imply that you don’t / can’t or won’t spend the time analyzing games or performances objectively or not. Either way I’m not fussed, you could be Jose Mourinho for all I care, I just don’t like the fact you clearly feel I shouldn’t unless it’s to say something or someone was good.
If their reasons for being on here are more emotional reasons then it makes no sense for you to get upset when I said exactly that, and that it was perfectly normal, only for you to accuse me of being patronising. Make your mind up.
I haven’t written anyone off. Not the posters or the players. I feel many of them are being asked to play at a level they aren’t capable of yet but I’ve posted my reasoning behind that. Feel free to challenge that. 
I wasn’t trying to impress anyone with my posts or my knowledge. Which is precisely why I kept them short and sweet and lacking any real detail. Again feel free to discuss in more depth if you wish. I can talk development and coaching all day. But let’s do it via DMs shall we as I have no more inclination to bore people or ruin a thread than you do.
Good luck to you. That’s your prerogative and fair play to you for being so nice, trust me I know for a fact there aren’t enough people like you around pro football. But maybe if there were it wouldn’t be so exhilarating and divisive and not so many people would enjoy it. 
Enjoying my evening just fine. Watching a selection of League 1/2 football tonight. Just to keep my horizons and understanding as broad as I can.
 

I’ll try and be brief without using one liners or being too controversial….don’t want to upset the apple cart further ?
My biggest bug bear is immediate and over the top reactions to players on their first few appearances and the subsequent questions / criticisms that arise a few games later about what they can’t do. It’s so typically ‘English’ and it’s so dated and archaic.
The easiest games a young player will ever play as a pro, are his first 2/3. He’s driven on adrenalin, enthusiasm, no fear and a complete lack of any kind of expectation from those watching. Everything he does is a bonus and his focus and eagerness to do the right thing and follow instructions overrides everything.
After that it only gets harder until you have played 60/70 games! Those next 30/40 are riddled with ups and downs and more and more public criticism than they’ve ever had in their lives and more than most slip away and never have a career. 
Im critical and I’ve seen the process many times, which is why I try not to fall into the ‘sweeping statements’ camp early on. 
My other bug bear is when there is no understanding of the players capabilities or their limitations and after the initial few appearances of doing the simple things….or the things they are capable of…people then criticise them for not doing things they’ve never done in the first place. A prime example being when people started to question if Thompson could score goals or if he had a shot on him…..
I think we have to be realistic and say that not one of them would have in normal circumstances have had their chance this early had it not been for the circumstances and probably realistic to say they wouldn’t have commanded a regular place at any other Championship side. However it’s probably also fair to say that in the short term none of them have looked out of place or been anything other than a credit to themselves or the club.
I include the lads early season that played Carabao Cup games in that too and in many of those cases they out performed some of their counterparts but were never given other opportunity's.

Realistically, Festy is the only one I’d consider a serious contender for selection each week with a fully fit squad. I have my reservations on Festy however and much depends on where he wants to end up playing. If he wants to be a full back, the skys the limit. He reminds me a lot of Reece James with a more devastating turn of pace. Defensively that’ll put him on the Ashley Cole category and I think he’ll play in the Prem. As a winger though I’m not so sure. I don’t think he has the technical ability to mix up his game and he doesn’t have the touch and awareness to play inside the wide areas like many wide attackers are asked to do. 
Plange is a player I highlighted as someone I liked early on this season. Before he scored regular goals in the 23s and long before he was anywhere near a 1st team picture. However I don’t see him as a no 9. He doesn’t have either the pace to really trouble top defenders in behind and he’s not proficient enough in the air to provide an alternative to that. He does have great technical ability though and I see him as an inside forward….a 7/10/11 playing in pockets.
My other observations may not be popular….
Cashin I’m not convinced is a Championship player. Saturday as I said will be the easiest game of his football life and Peterborough the kindest of opposition for any debut making Centre back. I think he’ll have a pro career but maybe not in the Championship. 
 
Liam Thompson did brilliantly for several games but if I’m honest the reaction was way over the top and we’re largely driven by the occasion - Bournemouth on live TV - and the result - a cracking win! Another example of the first few games being the easiest. When questions were asked of him and other teams put more pressure on him in possession he’s found it difficult. He still has lots of developing to do but there are lots of players that play his role and and I’m not sure what will set him apart from others….funnily enough it’s done him a favour being at Derby and how they play and in the championship. League 1 or 2 will have seen him swallowed whole.
Another factor largely driving fans perception of player performance, particularly on young players is the result! A 3-0 drubbing gives nowhere near the same perception of an individual performance as a hard earn 1-0 win….regardless of individual player input…as players like Brown, McDonald, Watson, Hutchinson found after the Carabao Cup loss to Sheff Utd.

You’ve looked through my last 15 posts on one thread? Well that’s balanced.
Because I choose to make informed, balanced comments based on my own opinion from watching the games, instead of using over inflated, over excited hyperbole to describe someone I’ve read about on Twitter or seen as a sub for 3 mins when we were 3-0 down?
Funnily enough I checked out your posts from the previous twenty pages of just your posts…..and it seems you have an opinion on everything from Covid, to admin, to TV to the weather. Granted you’ve contributed articulately and thoughtfully on all those, but the one topic I’ve barely seen you post an opinion on the actual football match or the footballer other than post match ratings where it’s acceptable to mark a player out of 10 without understanding or commenting  on any of the nuances that contribute to it.
You may not agree with my comments or indeed like them but all I’m doing is posting an opinion and while it’s sometimes harsh it’s never scathing, abusive or vindictive. But it is after all a football forum and honest opinions, even if unpopular, are what it is for. However none of my comments on young players are even close to some of what I’ve read on matchday threads when things are going badly including some aimed at one or two of the younger players.
You may not like them but my comments are anything but ignorant or ill informed. I’ve been inside pro football as a player and a coach. I’ve coached several current pros inc premier league players and been in youth development at a Category 1 academy. I could discuss the finer points all day long but in a forum it often comes across differently in short one line observations.
But fwiw, our predicament at the moment is in danger of harming as many players as it aids. Players fast tracked into 23s or 1st team football too soon often on the back of some promising performances at U18s level isn’t always good. Robinson for example may well end up a decent player but trust me when I say he’s finding U23s football hard and keeping his head above water by keeping the game simple and trying not to make mistakes isn’t good for him on the long run and in 2/3 years time when someone is criticising him for not having more tools on his toolbox of game skills and asking why he doesn’t play forwards more often, or break lines with his passing it’ll be because he was being asked to play at a level too high too soon and wasn’t able to take risks, try things out, spend time on the ball and make mistakes. He’s not the only one either.
This is the very reason why someone like Louie Watson isn’t being rushed into the first team where the pressure to retain possession and not ‘cost the team’ by taking a risk is much greater and as much as he may not like it right now, he’ll be a better player for being given a little more time where he is. I’ve seen the criticism of Max Bird…and it won’t be long before the same people say the same things about Liam Thompson. 
I’m happy to talk football all day. But don’t expect to like or agree with me, which is fine, but likewise don’t criticise me for how I express an opinion. 

I’ll try and be brief without using one liners or being too controversial….don’t want to upset the apple cart further ?
My biggest bug bear is immediate and over the top reactions to players on their first few appearances and the subsequent questions / criticisms that arise a few games later about what they can’t do. It’s so typically ‘English’ and it’s so dated and archaic.
The easiest games a young player will ever play as a pro, are his first 2/3. He’s driven on adrenalin, enthusiasm, no fear and a complete lack of any kind of expectation from those watching. Everything he does is a bonus and his focus and eagerness to do the right thing and follow instructions overrides everything.
After that it only gets harder until you have played 60/70 games! Those next 30/40 are riddled with ups and downs and more and more public criticism than they’ve ever had in their lives and more than most slip away and never have a career. 
Im critical and I’ve seen the process many times, which is why I try not to fall into the ‘sweeping statements’ camp early on. 
My other bug bear is when there is no understanding of the players capabilities or their limitations and after the initial few appearances of doing the simple things….or the things they are capable of…people then criticise them for not doing things they’ve never done in the first place. A prime example being when people started to question if Thompson could score goals or if he had a shot on him…..
I think we have to be realistic and say that not one of them would have in normal circumstances have had their chance this early had it not been for the circumstances and probably realistic to say they wouldn’t have commanded a regular place at any other Championship side. However it’s probably also fair to say that in the short term none of them have looked out of place or been anything other than a credit to themselves or the club.
I include the lads early season that played Carabao Cup games in that too and in many of those cases they out performed some of their counterparts but were never given other opportunity's.

Realistically, Festy is the only one I’d consider a serious contender for selection each week with a fully fit squad. I have my reservations on Festy however and much depends on where he wants to end up playing. If he wants to be a full back, the skys the limit. He reminds me a lot of Reece James with a more devastating turn of pace. Defensively that’ll put him on the Ashley Cole category and I think he’ll play in the Prem. As a winger though I’m not so sure. I don’t think he has the technical ability to mix up his game and he doesn’t have the touch and awareness to play inside the wide areas like many wide attackers are asked to do. 
Plange is a player I highlighted as someone I liked early on this season. Before he scored regular goals in the 23s and long before he was anywhere near a 1st team picture. However I don’t see him as a no 9. He doesn’t have either the pace to really trouble top defenders in behind and he’s not proficient enough in the air to provide an alternative to that. He does have great technical ability though and I see him as an inside forward….a 7/10/11 playing in pockets.
My other observations may not be popular….
Cashin I’m not convinced is a Championship player. Saturday as I said will be the easiest game of his football life and Peterborough the kindest of opposition for any debut making Centre back. I think he’ll have a pro career but maybe not in the Championship. 
 
Liam Thompson did brilliantly for several games but if I’m honest the reaction was way over the top and we’re largely driven by the occasion - Bournemouth on live TV - and the result - a cracking win! Another example of the first few games being the easiest. When questions were asked of him and other teams put more pressure on him in possession he’s found it difficult. He still has lots of developing to do but there are lots of players that play his role and and I’m not sure what will set him apart from others….funnily enough it’s done him a favour being at Derby and how they play and in the championship. League 1 or 2 will have seen him swallowed whole.
Another factor largely driving fans perception of player performance, particularly on young players is the result! A 3-0 drubbing gives nowhere near the same perception of an individual performance as a hard earn 1-0 win….regardless of individual player input…as players like Brown, McDonald, Watson, Hutchinson found after the Carabao Cup loss to Sheff Utd.

Eh?
If we match the results of Peterborough Reading and Hull and Peterborough win their game in hand we finish 2nd bottom. 

It’s not in our hands. Although the likelihood is and the form book would say we are more likely to pick up points than all three of those teams….with the possible exception of Reading going on the last four days!!

A fantastic and very insightful post. I'd posted something similar based on my observations but you clearly have more knowledge than I do. Criticism of young players is difficult but it is important to be honest and, more importantly, be happy to be proved wrong by them. 
For what it's worth, I rate Plange and think he will make a good Championship player in the future. As for Festy, he looks equal measures of world-beating dribbler/terrible passer of the ball and I've given up predicting what level he will get to and just enjoy the entertainment that he brings.