Leeds Ram

Chill out fella. I'm sure Mackworth is just messing. We all really need to take a step back.

Cheers sage 🙂 Money shouldn't be too much of a problem as we are both earning good money fortunately 🙂 

You've frequently distorted and lied about my political beliefs, my arguments on this thread and how I address the question of Israel and Palestine and Middle Eastern politics. You've said I believe in the 'western way or the highway' and that I don't give a damn about ME politics despite the fact I've spent 1/3rd of my life studying it. You've said I cherry pick experts, even experts who strongly believe in a Palestinian state simply because you disagree with what they have to say. You've lied about what I've said about Ilan Pappe, you've lied about my beliefs about how we should treat Arab states and claimed that I see hamas and other groups as nothing more than Islamists living in caves 'shooting ak47's in the air shouting death to the west'. You've lied about how I believe Palestinians should just sit there and allowed to be killed. You've lied about how I supposedly believe most Palestinians are terrorists.I could go on and on but what's the point.  
This is all just since Saturday btw Alpha, I couldn't be bothered to go back before then.  Simply put you distort, obfuscate, and lie about other people's opinions and the facts when they don't suit your argument. That's not serious discussion, it's not right and it's something you should be called out on. It also renders you utterly pointless to have a genuine discussion with. 

I don't believe I was being condescending but merely explanatory. Then again on an online forum it can be difficult to discern between the two and I'll try to take that into account next time I post. 

I was at Port Vale last night and the last word I'd use to describe it is boring! 
There was a great atmosphere among the Derby fans from kick off. We were brought together by the shared endurance of traffic jams, crap facilities (again), lack of organisation and over-officious stewarding pre-match.
I thought we played well and always felt confident of the win. Yes, they had some possession in midfield with neat and tidy play that contributed to a good game but they created very little,  whereas we looked dangerous every time we attacked - direct and strong. Their goalkeeper was clearly man of the match (didn't he have a stormer against us at our place last season, too?) Another night, one of those early chances goes in and the scoreline would have looked more comfortable. As it was, I felt sure we would score eventually as they tired. 
Wilson is rapidly becoming one of my favourite footballers. You can tell he's revelling in being fit and playing in front of the biggest set of fans of his career. But everyone played their part; I don't get the hate for Collins as he worked his socks off again and could have had two on another night.
What a dollop that Ikpeazu is! Referee should have booked him early for his wrestling/diving, would have cut it out. Instead it just gave Cashin an opportunity to make him look clumsy, which he did with aplomb. 
Hourihane needs to let someone else onto set pieces occasionally as the lack of delivery is noticeable.  He worked hard across the rest of the pitch though against their busy midfield and closed down well.
What a classy goal to decide the game. Barkhuizen's harrying won the ball back, a peach of a low cross from Mendez-Laing and JJ finished with aplomb. Anyone else would have took a touch and the defender  cleared it. But that young man has quality and he showed it just when needed. In his celebration right in front of us he looked quite emotional,  another player hoping to put his injury demons behind him. I hope he does, because if he can keep fit he could help fire us to promotion this season.
Come on you Rams! ⚽️ 

https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-773791

https://www.awrad.org/en/article/10719/Wartime-Poll-Results-of-an-Opinion-Poll-Among-Palestinians-in-the-West-Bank-and-Gaza-Strip 

 It's not a smear and there have been opinion surveys conducted. I was making the broader point that conflict has a tendency to polarise opinions further entrenching pre-conceived differences. 

another win on the board is good news. Finally in the top 6 and looking like the top 2 isn't a million miles away even if the performances aren't great. 

another win on the board is good news. Finally in the top 6 and looking like the top 2 isn't a million miles away even if the performances aren't great. 

Feel bad for the port vale fans. Not cos they lost, but because they have to go back to a house in Stoke.

Yeah this is what I've found. If you write something he doesn't like he simply either lies about or ridiculously distorts what you say and interprets what you think in the worst possible light in response. It makes the conversation utterly pointless. Using a term like 'triggered' in that manner also triggers the f*** out of me tbh.

I'm not sure how much of what you accuse me of saying I actually said and I haven't got the time or the patience to check. I feel I've added some balance and context to what has largely been a one-sided thread with regard to those two important facets of any discussion. What I've certainly NEVER said is that innocent Palestinians deserve what Israel is currently doing to them. I said right at the outset that I thought Israel's response would be counter-productive in the long term and I stick to that view. I also still hold the view that Iran are the biggest barrier to peace in the region because in Israel there's always the possibility of change, but next to zero chance of that in Iran.
Sometimes you come across as more balanced in your outlook, but many of your posts have, in my view, come across as rambling hate-filled rants, often disrespectful of other knowledgeable posters who hold different views to your own. I don't think that's done you any favours and your reaction to a plea for a less antagonistic thread has regrettably gone the same way.
To paraphrase Mickey Flanagan, I was out, but now I'm out out.

Gutted that I've had to give my tickets up for this. We've hit a bit of form in the league this season so hopefully we can follow it up with a win here. We really need to string 5,6,7 wins together to mount some pressure on the top 2. The game against Rovers didn't sound great so we need to put that right here as well. 

We could do with a humanitarian pause on this thread too.

I do get that it grates, especially so since the Arab Spring. On genocide it is a high bar to prove it but so it should be. Genocide is the most serious crime of all. It requires policy directed at the highest levels of government/group. I am not an expert in all areas of world politics or anything but when we look at Rwanda and Serbia there are clear examples of genocide that are well known. You can add in China's treatment of the uighurs and tibet, Islamic State, Syria and Iraq and you have a few legitimate claims there as well as well as in Myanmar. There have been a couple of convictions on different incidents I believe, I know there has definitely been 1. 
 
I will respond one last time. Your claim that I argue a free Palestine would give terrorists more freedom wipes away the context in which it is situated. You've basically written a calumny against me at this point, and you should apologise for it. I distinctly argue that a free Palestine without adjustment for its social, economic, and political problems would not be a free and stable state. This is not controversial or new to anyone. Indeed, new political entities that come without those adjustments become internally and externally unstable. This does not mean I inherently believe a Palestinian state would be a terrorist state, as you have suggested but the challenges are immense. 
"a free Palestine is not going to be the land of milk and honey that some imagine. It will continue to suffer from poverty and political instability; the rights that its Western supporters demand for citizens will likely not be met. The suffering—and all that comes with it—shall merely continue with a new label, leaving plenty of room for terrorist actors to operate and even grow. This is not to suggest that we should not support a Palestinian state, or recognize how it creates the political space and rights that we in the West would demand of ourselves. Still, how likely is it to really occur?"
"The two-state solution seems further away than ever before but it still remains closer than the tolerable alternatives. To build back the goodwill Israel once enjoyed, it would be prudent—in time—for Israel not only to cease the terror bombing but also to begin a genuine dialogue to create a two-state solution. " 
"The failure to address the Palestinian question in an equitable manner has and continues to drain their moral legitimacy. The United States and others should focus their efforts not on a vain and ultimately futile attempt to destroy a terrorist organisation, but rather on a genuine attempt to build peace." 

I'm also a big fan of Shadi Hamid's work who argues for Arab democracy in the region whether it contains liberalism or not. He's a democratic minimalist and I've had him on my podcast and written two articles for his website. I generally agree with his argument around democratic minimalism and have written and argued for greater support for democracy in the region, even if it comes with policies we do not agree with or like. You basically just label and distort positions you dislike. 

No I don't. I think the decision to support the overthrow of Mossadegh was easily the wrong one. I just also find the idea that lionising Mossadegh as merely an innocent democrat who would have ushered in an era of free elections and constitutionality to Iran very suspect as well. 

The definition leaves plenty of wriggle room, as you say for sure, like almost all international law btw, but given the context of who the UN is dealing with here (state actors) it's much easier to pin down than you make out. Genocide must be a concerted effort institutionally to attempt to annihilate a group of people with some form of systemisation. The reason why the US wasn't seriously accused of genocide in Iraq when individual soldiers committed war crimes is because there was no overarching aim to destroy the Iraqi people. There was no systemised attempt to exterminate them and/or destroy all cultural trace of them. For genocide to stick legally, it cannot be a few rogue soldiers committing terrible acts of violence that much is absolutely obvious. 
I was giving context to claims of genocide being made and the history of warfare. In the context it was perfectly reasonable to make these statements i think. 
 

I do find the inconsistency very odd. It either suggests some of the players Warne has brought in aren't up to it, Sonny Bradley for instance, or he can't get a consistent tune out of them which is a whole other problem. 

You may well be right but I live in hope... I've had some good discussions but maybe Alpha cares a bit too much to have a nuanced discussion about this with someone who see's things through a slightly different lens. 

Well then you get potentially a Nasser like situation which is hardly good. Again, it depends from the perspective you come from and I think we have quite different ones on this particular case 🙂 

I think when discussing absolute merits, you can't really divorce actions from context of the time they exist in to make a valid moral judgement. I don't think Israel has been entirely indiscriminate in the same way that Assad has been, but the barriers previously erected in terms of discrimination of military force have definitely been lowered. There are also completely valid questions about war crimes, even if they currently stop some way short of genocide.  Of course, to those who have lost loved ones intent does not matter nor does whether the act was strictly in the bounds of international law. But I wouldn't be making this argument to that family... I'm making this argument on a derby county forum. 

I don't think it's Orwellian to mention it at all. I'm not changing definitions to mean something else or to assert something didn't happen when it definitely did. I'm also not being morally hypocritical in saying one thing and practising another. 

LeedsRam you show knowledge and balance. I think you have landed on the wrong thread. 

You're someone who clearly can't engage in good faith so I won't bother responding further. 

Yeah it is a bit of a pain if you live a bit far out and/or don't drive. Ideally, I'd prefer to just go back to them but I genuinely don't have the time to make the trip before the game. I figured I might as well try to give them to someone on here so they don't go to waste 🙂

You're someone who clearly can't engage in good faith so I won't bother responding further. 

Yeah it is a bit of a pain if you live a bit far out and/or don't drive. Ideally, I'd prefer to just go back to them but I genuinely don't have the time to make the trip before the game. I figured I might as well try to give them to someone on here so they don't go to waste 🙂

That's a good point, we had to take ours in to the office to get our refund. 

I believe the ticket office would give me a full refund, but I am currently not in a position where I can make it to the ticket office before the game as I am moving house while working.