PistoldPete

On 01/12/2023 at 22:27, uttoxram75 said:

Would a Palestinian civilian see Israel's atrocities any different than an Israeli civilian sees Hamas' atrocities? Its a big statement to say the actions of Israel are not comparable to those of Hamas Pete. Just on scale alone many would think the opposite tbh.

It shouldn’t be a controversial statement .. in fact it’s one that even Alpha acknowledges. The Hamas attack was a crime of such depravity ( and with attackers glorying in the fact that they were killing Jews) that I am in doubt that it crosses the legal threshold of genocide.. of deliberate intent of killing members of an ethnic group simply because of their ethnicity. 
 

Israels response may have caused a greater loss of life, many of them civilians . But as I have said many times it is not genocide.. the legal experts state the difficulty in showing intent to kill people just  because they are Palestinians. 
 

so on the one hand you get people like Gary Lineker staying completely silent on the Hamas atrocity , but at the same time telling us all to watch a video of some academic saying Israel’s response is genocide. I cannot see that the attitude of people like Lineker is anything but prejudiced in the extreme. 

7 hours ago, Alpha said:

Just to add, before somebody says the purpose of that article is to call an end to the the blame game. Why did it go into so much detail on the horrors of the 7th? Is it suggesting people don't care? Forgot? Support Hamas? 

It's saying people "secretly" don't consider those 1,200 people victims? Hmm. 

Ironic way to call and end to the ghoulish competition and bat away the pretend argument that "where any empathy shown to dead Israelis somehow leaves less available for Palestinians"

I thought it was just me that twists and distorts opposing views? 

It is true that there a lot of people who do not want to recognise that October 7 took place. When the video was shown by a Jewish businessman the showing had to be done secretly to avoid protests . Posters of the missing hostages are regularly posted in London and torn down within hours by protesters. There are a very large number of people who do not want to recognise Jews as the victims. 

10 hours ago, Alpha said:

Someone complaining about whataboutism with an argument purely based in whataboutery

And I'm antagonistic? 

Just adding "context" again eh. 

This is the thing. I've seen the videos from October 7th. Like I've actually seen them. Has anyone else out of interest? Would you like to know the gory details? Would you like me to post some stuff on here that I guarantee you'll watch once and your mind will revisit it for days, weeks and occasionally for years. 

Feck Hamas. Nobody is comparing evil to evil. Well, you are actually in this article. Ironically. Feck Hamas. Feck Hamas. Feck Hamas. 

Likewise who wants to see some videos from West Bank. You've seen the mass graves in Gaza? The dead babies? The Palestinians released from prisons, some without charge, who have been tortured? Now do you want to see some videos and pics of Settler violence? Do you want to see what happens in Jenin? Does anybody here need proof of IDF barbarity? 

No. It servers zero purpose except to join in with The Guardian nonsense and continue the tit for tat escalation that apparently is mostly down to me. 

So, let's accept Hamas are evil. I'm cool with that. Now, can we hold IDF to the same standards? Are they terrorists? If not then why not?

Then can we examine quotes by the likes of Netenyahu and Smotrich and all the other thugs? Tell me if these words carry more threat and are more antagonistic than anything some knob head has ever said on a football forum. 

And the reason I ask you to examine this is because next I'd ask again what are Israel really trying to achieve? Wipe out Hamas? Consider this approach when used in other cases. Consider that Hamas is an ideology. Consider that Hamas isn't the only organisation that threatens Israel. Consider what happens to the millions of effected Palestinians who have no security and lose their homes and loved ones

So, with that considered. Are Israel justified by their actions in Gaza and West Bank? Both? Neither? 

It often feels like this thread must have a lot of hidden posts where people are defending Hamas. Because I know I could sit here all day condemning Hamas. But if anybody actually does want peace then you have to understand them. Know why they exist. Know how to take power and influence away from them. 

Or just keep killing those who we don't agree with and give them nothing. Manifest Destiny innit

The big problem is that you are saying the actions of Israel are comparable to Hamas. They are not . Nowhere near. If you cannot see that then yes you must be biased beyond belief. 

13 hours ago, GboroRam said:

I was thinking something similar. I think we justify the killing of the enemy because we held the belief that they were on the "right" side of the moral argument. 

It's easier to defend killing people when they represent an aggressive, expansionist nation. One that has declared territory for themselves despite widespread opposition. 

In the case of WW2 there were various reasons for Allied actions.

1) A genuinely expansionist enemy that was attacking territories in the Baltics, all over Europe and Russia. 
 

2) An evil ideology of eugenics that mercifully was a phase that passed along with Hitler.

3) Albeit with hindsight, a war that ultimately brought peace across Western Europe for the last 80 years and hopefully forever.

But despite those justifications, if Allied forces had rounded up 1,400 German civilians and executed them in cold blood that would be murder, genocide even given all that. 

41 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Every single person killed in the Dresden bombings was? Every single one of them was a genocidal murderer? None of them were innocent pacifists, or children?

It's an interesting philosophical debate to have I agree. Where does murdering innocent people in the name of "war" become justified if it stops further murders by the other side. Similar to the Trolley Car dilemma, except it's real and not theoretical and people do actually die

I referred to Nazi Germans specifically to acknowledge the fact that we were at war with the Nazis, not with the Germans as a people. The horrors of the war are that innocent civilians ( French as well as Germans) were killed in large numbers. 

18 hours ago, ramit said:

If you take a life, what are you?  Alright, killers then.  I am not judging by using those words, it is what it is.  Killing in the name of some power that be is not less of a killing.  I understand men were conscripted, forced to bear arms and I find that criminal, the state acting as if human beings are their property and leaving them with scars that won't heal and a conscious that accuses.

Nazi Germans were killers, murderers, genocidal all of those things. They killed millions of Jews, gays, disabled people and anyone else who got in their way. Appeasement with Hitler was no use, only when Hitler was defeated could a process of appeasement and reconciliation begin. That process has led to peace in Western Europe for the last 80 years and probably forever. Before that West European countries had been warring for centuries. Quite a change and none of that would have been possible if Hitler hadn’t been defeated. 

23 minutes ago, Alpha said:

You don't see Israel escalating the conflict? This is why I asked what Israel are trying to achieve in Gaza right now because I think it's fair to say Hamas are gaining more support and in the long term at least will come back stronger? That's how this thread became so heated but I hope I can get my tone across here that I'm trying to discuss and I'm not telling you your wrong. I'm trying to understand the logic of Israel. 

I suppose what's done is done anyway and if we are talking about moving forward then from this ceasefire we would need to get Fatah and Israeli government to the table. 

Couple of problems with that are that many Palestinians accuse Abbas and Fatah of being sympathetic to the Occupation, of corruption etc. I'm not saying they're right or wrong. But it's a stumbling block because of the view that this government doesn't have the best interest of Palestinians at heart. So I don't know how they combat that? 

The other obviously is the right wing Zionists in Israel. It's hard to imagine that Netenyahu and Co can be the ones to negotiate. Is that fair to say? It has to be those within Israel that oppose Netenyahu? Too much damage has been done by him and his allies to possibly be the ones to find peace? 

It's really hard to know if my tone is coming across as aggressive. I can only hope it isn't. I'm not the most eloquent poster!! 

I didn’t say that. I said I didn’t see it as a tit for tat retaliation ie you killed x of our civilians so we will kill y of yours as retaliation. The stated aim is to take Hamas out of the equation so that there is no recurrence. Whether that will work as I say I don’t know, but that’s the objective as I see it and how Israel has stated it. 

52 minutes ago, Alpha said:

This is the point which it can easily dissolve back into tit for tat because I don't think there is any chance of peace without assurances from Israel. And I know you think that might be my bias but please hear me out and tell me where you disagree. 

You can't ask Hamas or Palestinians to stop fighting. Well, you can. But they will always say that until the Occupier returns what they have taken then they will stand against Israel, no? They will, whether we agree or not, point to the settlements and Gaza. 

This is where I think I'll get grief again because I'm putting the ball in Israel's court. Being the military power, being the occupier or whatever less offensive term is I think they have to offer the Palestinians something. Not Hamas. But work towards a Palestinian State and work with Palestinian Authority. 

All the while they'll come under attack. But I don't see another solution. Fatah and Israel have to be brought to the table and Israel will have to give the Palestinians more than they would like to. And the Palestinians would have to take less than they'd like. 

And then it's vital that whatever provocations, Israel deal with settler violence. They can't control Hamas but they can control that. 

Then, as I've maintained and nobody has put an argument against it, Hamas can't be destroyed by Israel. It's an ideology and will always return in one form of another. Because of angry Palestinians. Because of Iran etc. So the only way to remove Hamas is to get Palestinians to reject them. To reduce Hamas influence over Palestinians until they're such a pathetic force maybe Israel will be able to strike at. And Palestinians will feel less like Hamas is there only guard against illegal and aggressive occupation (that's how they see it)

This has been my view from the start and I've been guilty of going in hard at Israel. But genuinely just trying to get the point that they are the power here and it has to be them that make the first move. I know that's not always been the case. I know Arab nations around them, particularly one, if they were in Israel's position then Gaza would be flat packed. I know nations like America and Iran etc have their own agenda.

I hope this time I haven't come across as ranting. I'm all ears for what other avenues we could go down. I know it will take years to get through a process. I've just never heard much of an alternative. 

It breaks into "well you did this" and "you did that" and "well we offered this before" and "you've never offered anything that you didn't steal" 

Well instead of tit for tat scaling up (which incidentally I don’t see Israel’s response as that anyway) we go down a tit for tat scaling down .. the hostage/ prisoner exchange is a good start. The big step is Israel ( without Netanyahu) recognising Palestine and vice versa. The devil I think is in the detail which is why I think previous attempts at a two State solution have failed. 

Interesting that Warne brought JJ on ahead of Waghorn. And of course it paid dividends straightaway. All our ageing strikers have played a part so far but I’ve always thought we needed some fresh legs. Hopefully JJ can stay fit and play a big part and if so maybe extend his loan after Jan. 

6 hours ago, ramit said:

My opinion

War is all bloody murder, there can be no denying that.  There is no good war.  You may find it offensive, but a soldier in WWII, Korea or Vietnam who fires his weapon to snuff out the life of another human being is a murderer.  There is a reason why so many veterans who have been in the *hit don't want to talk about it, they know what war made of them and feel shame for it.  Suicides are common with veterans, war messes up a person because it is unnatural, it delivers a lasting trauma to any decent person drawn into it.  The same goes for both sides of this war, it is all dehumanizing bloody murder, with the killers who survive never able to recover from the horrors they saw and acted in.

Justifying mass killings on the grounds of some ends won't fly either, it is what it is, a crime from start to finish.

Well as I say I have relatives who fought in the wars and I know full well they didn’t want to talk about it. The traumas of what they saw and yes what they did stayed with them for the rest of their lives. I know that it preyed on their consciences . War is horrible and nobody wants it.  But calling  our armed forces murderers is really too much. 

8 hours ago, Alpha said:

Then my next question would be do you think Israel's recent actions are ultimately going to save lives or extend and intensify the conflict? 

I know Hamas actions on October 7th certainly extended and intensified the conflict. I don't want you to think I'm suggesting Israel shouldn't react at all. 

I’m afraid I don’t know the answer to that. I would like to see some meaningful discussions right now about what the end game is. Calls for a ceasefire are pointless without that. 

4 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I think this is why there's an argument that the terms 'terrorism' and 'terrorist' have lost their value and are used more often to kind of support a narrative. This isn't about to be some defence of Hamas by the way. 

There are many cases of attacks on military targets we label terrorism and then attacks on civilian infrastructure that are considered collateral damage. I'm not sure how you measure it. 

I'm genuinely asking, if you take into account some of the comments from Israeli government and look at the pattern of attacks on Gaza could that be considered terrorism (an unlawful use of violence in pursuit of political aims)? Because we have to consider that Hamas are hidden in a densely populated area. 

And then we have the actions in West Bank which imo are more controversial

I would call Hamas terrorists all day long by the way. All day every day. 

Expand this and as mentioned... Hiroshima? The Napalm Strikes and Agent Green in Vietnam? Dresden? The drone strikes in Afghanistan/Iraq? The Russian bombardment of Ukrainian Cities? Where's the line and who decides? In your opinion what would you say?

I actually think that Israel’s attacks are less reckless than say the Allies on Dresden. But it’s different times now we have computers to help teach targets. 
I don’t regard either as murder but probably Dresden was a reckless error by Churchill. 

in answer to another question what is proportionate can only be decided in context of the end game. Hiroshima and Nagasaki unimaginably horrific though they were ended World war 2 which had cost 55 million lives. If the ultimate aim is ever lasting peace in the Middle East who knows what is proportionate. 

Good away win , good use of subs how good does it get. Pompy may have won but we’re still coming for them.

3 hours ago, GboroRam said:

If he'd killed 15,000 people, largely civilians, I'd call him a murderer. 

So were the Allied forces all murderers? Lots of civilians killed in the World Wars, millions I think. Pretty offensive to bandy around words like that plenty of us have relatives who fought in the wars. 

1 hour ago, Comrade 86 said:

Of course it's genocide. Nobody gives a tuppeny f*** about the legal minutiae, as sadly, I don't think anybody really believes anyone will ever be charged with war crimes anyway. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be though. Let's be honest here, when you wipe out 15,000 civilians, even bombing them as they flee, bomb hospitals, schools, raise entire neighbourhoods to the ground, deny aid and medicines, food and water, that ceases to be a merely a military operation. What you actually have is an annihilation and while you can pretend it's something lesser if you feel it serves a purpose, others will continue call it as they see it, whether you're stamping your feet and calling them stupid names, or not. 

So I could call you a murderer or paedo and that would be ok? I mean who cares about the legal minutiae that you might not actually be a murderer why quibble about such minor legal technicalities? 

11 hours ago, Highgate said:

Well we both agree the 53 Coup was wrong then, maybe for different reasons but at least that's a start.  I think all that has been said here is that Iran should have been allowed to continue without the malign influence of the US and UK.  Who knows what may have happened if the West hadn't interfered, it could be a democracy now or it could have regressed into something as bad as exists there now.  The point was, merely, that it grates when Israel is praised in the West for being the only democracy in the region, when the West actively prevented another country in region from having any chance to become a democracy, as well as supporting friendly dictators in the region (against their own populations) whenever expedient. 

I think you are under representing the difficulty in proving genocide. It's always extremely difficult to prove not only that some event happened but also the intent of the perpetrators.  And does it have to be the prime minister, or will a general do? Or a government minister? I accept that a few rogue soldiers is insufficient.  How many successful convictions of genocide have occurred since WWII and how many actual genocides have taken place since then, by your definition of the term?

Here is an interesting article on whether the current situation in Gaza should be classified as a genocide or not. 

https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-experts/

I don't really care how the unfolding events are defined, it's not like Netanyahu would ever be convicted for his crimes as the US will have his back regardless.  All I know is what has been happening in Gaza is an atrocity, conducted by a state actor and that's all that really matters.  Needless to say, the attack by Hamas was an atrocity too. 

 

 

So it isn’t legally genocide ( which is what I have been saying all along, stop using inflammatory language) but that won’t stop some social scientists calling it that anyway? 

It is horrific loss of life whichever way you look at it. 

On 25/11/2023 at 23:12, Leeds Ram said:

I actually believe in intervention as a method of helping citizens of those countries free themselves from oppressive tyrannical regimes. I don't believe the US's support for authoritarians is good and I've criticised Obama's policy of backing Sisi's coup over the Muslim Brotherhood and letting Assad gas his own citizens. I believe people in those nations deserve the same freedoms we demand for ourselves, that doesn't mean aligning myself with regimes or groups who are reprehensible. Giving the Palestinians a state with a Hamas led regime, or a regime where Hamas is a significant player is playing with geopolitical dynamite. Anyone who has read or knows anything about the region and the situation knows that. 

I didn't discredit Pappe, I said some historians, even in the 'new historians' field critique him which they do. I linked an article as such. However, I also highlighted that a lot of scholars, including some of my old lecturers, regularly use his materials and rate him. I gave a fair analysis of what I think. I don't buy what Finkelstein says and I've yet to know anyone who I respect on these questions who gives him any serious thought. 

It's not Hitler level for me. Again, your failure to distinguish between genocide with camps all over Europe, adapted killing techniques, dedicated murder squadrons, mass roundups for shooting and gassing and mass enslavement with a conflict in an urban environment of which many of the citizens are very young highlights your inability to separate out and distinguish between different types of actions. You can say what Israel has done is bad (I've written published articles where I've said this) and even illegal in the conduct of war but that doesn't mean it automatically constitutes genocide. I've yet to see a reasonable case be made that what has happened is a genocide according to the legal definitions of the term. 

I do believe Palestinians, like any people, have a right to defend themselves. I don't believe now that a Palestinian state is a viable political option and I do believe we're entering a new stage of the conflict where options will be limited because of the way both sides perceive one another. Of course I want Israel to give ground to Palestinians and I want Palestinains to recognise they won't get everything they want (like custody of Jerusalem) and settle for a bit less in return for an actual state and build from there. But that won't happen any time soon. 
 

LeedsRam you show knowledge and balance. I think you have landed on the wrong thread. 

3 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Right. So, the police shot a dog owner, and were given a suspended sentence for shooting a man? 

Good grammar from the Grauniad. 

Or the owner was given a suspended sentence after he had been shot dead. Makes a change from their usual spelling mistakes. 

4 minutes ago, Inverurie Ram said:

Claire @B4’s Sister unfortunately I will not be there tomorrow but I will be thinking about you all and wishing you all very well. ❤️

The flag & scarf photo’s are just computer generated but created in support of your wonderful brother and his love for the club we support. 🐏

To be fair it’s a long way from Inverurie. I will be there and applauding the legend. 

2 hours ago, cstand said:

Just checked my Twitter account I now have 10 followers 😀 so I decided to take a look at who was following me.

OMG this woman is following me.

Natalie Brunell Bitcoin podcaster.

Got the difficult decision now to follow her back or not. 

 

 

Might be worth enquiring about non fungible assets. 

2 hours ago, Inverurie Ram said:

I do admire your flange. I will look out for it tomorrow, hope it is flapping in the wind. 

6 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I didn't start a thread. This was split from the Ukraine thread and my post was a reply in that thread. 

Many years ago in the building trade we had a young Palestinian lad working with us. That's when I first began to take an interest from his stories. My passion grew for it over the years. Especially at what I felt was biased media coverage. My wife works with a Palestinian who's family are in West Bank right now. And my best friend is a Muslim who I've see the racist abuse he's had. This all forms my bias and sympathy. Then it's further reinforced by what I see as an Apartheid regime illegally taking lands through violence and consistently protected by America who's interest in the Middle East is obvious. Israel are their dog. 

A couple of years back I had a Palestinian flag as my avatar. Somebody had a Israeli flag and @GboroRam removed my flag. I threw a wobbler and felt even this is a small example of the voice being supressed. Gboro explained that it's just not the trouble to forum needs. Looking back that's probably fair. 

So I've purposely never started the thread. I briefly touched on it in the Ukraine thread. 

So when October 7th happened I still didn't start a thread. But I'm not one of those racists jumping on the bandwagon. 

I don't see October as such a big event as you. And I know, that sentence in isolation might be pretty disgusting. But to me, Palestinians have been killed in thousands for years. They've faced terrorism. They've been set on fire, shot, beaten, tortured... So that Jews should be killed by Hamas was just another page in this book. More killing of innocent people by one of the vile armed groups. 

Did you think I enjoyed October 7th? That I thought it was deserved? Absolutely not. I promise. I've seen the videos. The beatings, the shoving people into buildings and tossing grenades in. The confusion because Hamas militants seemed to lose their heads when let loose. Lots of arguing amongst themselves. Lots of nasty violence. 

But, the only thing new about this was that it was happening to Jews and that it was all in one day. 

The barbarity? Not new. Never gets easy to watch but not new. So I kind of was looking at the conflict on a wider scale. Which is what many Pro Israelis are doing now while Gaza is put to the sword. I don't think that makes them all racist. 

As for the newer supporters to Palestine. I don't think they're all racists. I think the fact we can go and get news from so many different sources has made more people aware of the situation. That the Ukraine war has been massive for giving people a moral dilemma when it comes to accepting Americas narrative. 

Alpha we all want a peaceful solution and I think a two state solution where Palestinians  can live freely is exactly what we both want.  I have my own perspective which to be honest is too personal to share on a public forum.

Despite your criticism of America they have  a vital role to play in brokering a peaceful solution.  Netanyahu has to go and of course so have Hamas.

But I sincerely do not believe that such a rabid criticism of Israel is the way to bring about that peace. Or make life for Jews here in the Uk at all bearable. 

2 hours ago, Premier ram said:

Currently very ill with a serious brain condition , my thoughts are with him and his family , absolute legend

To be honest it’s amazing he’s still alive but the Pogues are great so sorry to hear. 

23 minutes ago, Alpha said:

A few points. 

Do I think posts like mine fuel antisemetism? Yes. Because I think racists will piggyback any cause that's aimed at their target. 

9/11. Racists birthday party. But that doesn't mean everybody who supported "war on terror" was motivated by racism. 

Any pro Palestinian supporter, including Jews and Jews For Justice For Palestinians can't allow the argument against Israel to be silenced by cries of antisemetism. Just like the racists mobs that tag along must be condemned and actually irreparable harm to the cause. 

As for "if you only target Israel..." Well I criticise America all the time. ALL the time. I despise American and Russian war games. I despise American Imperialism. I was in the Ukraine thread criticising America to the very point I felt like I was defending Putin! But Russia are just the other side of the coin and the actual invasion was a indefensible. But many of Putin's claims about American Imperialism I felt were valid. 

Are you implying my passion for this conflict is motivated by a hatred of Jews? I could explain why personally I care but I don't see how it's relevant when I'm just some knobber on a football forum. 

As for Hamas are the only criminals. Absolute nonsense. Totally not true. An incredible claim

So you think you are even handed in your criticism? So on October 7 did you start a thread about the worst anti semitic atrocity since the Holocaust. No? Strange that.   

3 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Criticise Israel. Get called Antisemetic. Standard

I stand with the Jews, Christians, Catholics, Muslims etc that oppose Israel's aggressive expansionists campaign against Semite people. Against the Arab Muslims who don't know what prejudice is. 

If it makes people feel better to call such a stance antisemetic or label us Nazis then that's fine. Absolutely fine. Because the calls won't be stifled by this scare tactic. 

There's Jewish protesters in America being verbally abused by Jews right now for their stance on Israel. 

Islamophobia increased by 600%. So?

Attacks on Muslims increase every time some lunatic twists the words of the Qur'an and carries out some horrific act of terrorism. Muslim communities have to defend themselves on quite a regular basis. 

And when a vile humans like Suella Braverman press activate on right wing mobs to come and defend our shores from these terrorists. But we must be careful not to offend her. Feck her. Racist. 

Muslim communities feel insecure as UKIP, EDL, BNP etc have their marches and campaigns. 

Commonly misrepresented in TV and Hollywood. 

I said the other day. Click on the mainstream media comments section. See the open racism. Not even disguised

Rachel Riley - 'Nobody cared about Muslims before and they only care now because they're antisemetic'.... Yes Rachel. Nobody did care before. So we've established that. Good. Now let's analyse why they care now? Is it because they're antisemetic or is it possible that Israel don't represent all Jews and the IDF are terrorists? 

.....

Anyway, I realise what I'm doing is comparing racism rather than condemning all of it. Of course there's a rise in antisemetism. There's hate in the air. Every Nazi out there will piggyback on this. 

But it's a classic defence of Israel to play this card. As if there isn't a million reasons to be against Israel's policy. 

Whenever you look at Israeli defence it's based around being the victim. Being surrounded by enemies. Being a population of people persecuted through history. Being systematically tortured and slaughtered by Hitler. At what point does this stop being context and become an excuse for their behaviour. It's a brutal question. But when? When all the Palestinians are pushed into Sinai? When 20,000 Gazans are dead? 200,000? When the West Bank is 10% smaller? 20%? When Israel borders Iran? When the tension between Iran and Saudi reaches an all time high? When the oil rich nation of Iran must beg America to take it's resources at great discount through the "peace corridor"? 

When? When does context become excuse? Never? 

Netenyahu and his mob are Zionist war criminals. As vile as Hamas. There are many Zionist lunatics in Israel. And it's these we must oppose. As we must seek to remove Hamas in a realistic way. 

If they want to hide behind antisemetism then you must accept the label and drive on. With support from the countless Jews who recognise the Apartheid regime. 

I hope I haven't offended any Jews. I don't think I've been racist here. My anger is purely at the Imperial scum who disgustingly hide behind the atrocities commited against Jewish people while they kill Palestine's future

Well you just had to double down  didn't you?  

So Braverman made some inflammatory comment calling the marches "hate marches". She was wrong to do that, although there were certainly some hateful people on those marches.   So that activates right wing mobs? Well maybe but I don't think Robinson and his mob need much excuse .

So how about inflammatory posts like yours? Multiplied millions of times over on social media? Don't you think that fuels far left and anti semitic mobs? It certainly does, and is right now , not just on Armistice Day but every frigging day since October 7.

Rachel Riley gets vile abuse all of the time. She knows what anti semitism is, she gets first hand experience of it all the time. Nice of you to show understanding for her about that .

You plainly don't understand anti semitism. You don't recognise it, but it's the same as any other racism. We had someone else on this forum, another serial offender criticising another poster who was having a go at Jordan Ibe over his mental health issues. Stupid to have a go at Ibe for that not his fault. But the inference was made that criticising Ibe and dele Alli might be because that person was racist. If you criticise only black people all the time, you might get that impression.. same if you spend all your time criticising Israel, ignoring far worse things done by other countries. That is what Rachel Riley is saying , and she is right. 

The only unarguable crimes have been committed by Hamas, who have deliberately targeted civilians. .to put Israel's response on a par with that is wrong both morally and factually.