GboroRam

I hope we can still laugh at the stupid stuff. 

What I will say in defence of Israel.... urgh.... Is that plenty Palestinians in Gaza do consider Hamas to be their only chance. They believe an apartheid is being carried out by Israel and if it's life under Hamas or an Israeli puppet government then I think, obviously I don't know, that they would support Hamas. 
So it's very complex for Palestinians. They can excuse the worst of Hamas as propaganda or even accept that this is just a world wide fact of guerilla warfare when a small military power fights a large one. 
Israel, it's own existence was forged using terrorism. We see it all the time that to make change against a government or to apply pressure on a government you have to terrorise them. Open warfare is not an option
We can go back to the bombings by Israeli militants on the British to fight for freedom. Now it seems a noble fight for Jews? I dunno 
But in the grand scheme I think some/many Palestinians will say Hamas is the only protection against Israeli apartheid 

The day humour dies is the day I'll become a Monk and open a Monastery in Donny 😇

I hope we can still laugh at the stupid stuff. 

I hope we can still laugh at the stupid stuff. 

I hope we can still laugh at the stupid stuff. 

I hope we can still laugh at the stupid stuff. 

Hamas have injured and killed civilians.  They have taken those lives for their own objectives.
Israel maybe aiming to kill Hamas, but they do so with the near certain knowledge that dropping a bomb in Gaza is going to injure and kill civilians.  They too are taking civilian lives for their own purposes.
They are fundamentally the same act.
It is ludicrous to keep saying, "but they do not on purpose kill civilians" as if that makes it okay.  When Olivia Pratt-Korbel was killed in Liverpool we didn't say to the killer "oh never mind you weren't aiming at her".  Nor did we charge him with the lesser manslaughter.  He was convicted of murder.  It was irrelevant that Olivia was not the target.
Now war is messy and accidents do happen, a rocket misfires etc and civilians get killed.  But what Israel is doing is not an accident.  The deaths of civilians are entirely predictable.
As far as I can see the only way the death of a civilian can be purposefully taken is if it ultimately saves more lives.  I would suggest a lot more lives have to be saved.  Israel cannot claim this.
The invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11 was a mistake, worse was the invasion of Iraq.  Why do we never learn from history and endlessly repeat the same mistakes?  
I'm not a philosopher, but given the already high number of civilian deaths and the high number of military deaths (on both sides) that will come in a ground invasion, I think the morally correct thing for Israel to have done/do is nothing.

Probably best to just call it bombing, then?

No it really isn’t. They are going after Hamas. Precision bombing is not that precise and that will result in tragic loss of civilian life. But they are not going after civilians it is ridiculous to claim that. 

Which one are you? 😁

I saw a clip of his missus claiming to be from a working class background, and David pushing her to answer "what car did your dad drive you to school in?" "it's not that simple, Er, Er". 
It's Rolls Royce. 

No need to hide who posted it, it was me. And I will apologise, I certainly didn't know I'd posted anything antisemitic. 
I find it hard not to make a comparison with the persecution of the Jews in the 30s, and the attacks on Palestinians now. Perversely, the people who were receiving the persecution now have a state apparatus doing the persecution of Palestinians, in the name of driving out Hamas. I mean, would we have said any different if the UK state had blown up whole catholic areas of Northern Ireland, with the intention of driving out the IRA? 
Of course the actions of the Israeli state aren't the actions of all Jews and I don't think anyone is suggesting they are, but can anyone deny there's horrible echoes here, with over a million people fleeing for their lives? It feels very wrong. 
There's a lot of support in the west for Israel and it's hard to say much negative without being cast as antisemitic. I don't believe I am, but perhaps I don't quite agree with the current definition of antisemitism. Offending posts have been removed and I'll try to be mindful of the guidelines as to the definition of antisemitism. Apologies if anyone took offence. 

No need to hide who posted it, it was me. And I will apologise, I certainly didn't know I'd posted anything antisemitic. 
I find it hard not to make a comparison with the persecution of the Jews in the 30s, and the attacks on Palestinians now. Perversely, the people who were receiving the persecution now have a state apparatus doing the persecution of Palestinians, in the name of driving out Hamas. I mean, would we have said any different if the UK state had blown up whole catholic areas of Northern Ireland, with the intention of driving out the IRA? 
Of course the actions of the Israeli state aren't the actions of all Jews and I don't think anyone is suggesting they are, but can anyone deny there's horrible echoes here, with over a million people fleeing for their lives? It feels very wrong. 
There's a lot of support in the west for Israel and it's hard to say much negative without being cast as antisemitic. I don't believe I am, but perhaps I don't quite agree with the current definition of antisemitism. Offending posts have been removed and I'll try to be mindful of the guidelines as to the definition of antisemitism. Apologies if anyone took offence. 

Religion is only part of it, though. You've got Jews who aren't religious, you've got Palestinians who just want their land returned. It's now more about nationalism than religion, much as the troubles in Northern Ireland are about catholic vs protestant, but very much about national identity and not really about religion. 
These lands were home for Arab Muslims and Jews for thousands of years. Colonisation is correct, but an aggressive colonisation by a hugely superior military. 

Religion is only part of it, though. You've got Jews who aren't religious, you've got Palestinians who just want their land returned. It's now more about nationalism than religion, much as the troubles in Northern Ireland are about catholic vs protestant, but very much about national identity and not really about religion. 
These lands were home for Arab Muslims and Jews for thousands of years. Colonisation is correct, but an aggressive colonisation by a hugely superior military. 

Israel were attacked? So they can indiscriminately dropped bombs on Palestinians? 
Israel attacked in 1967. Israel has broken the law over and over. It's excessive military operations have been noted by the UN. The raid on Jenin refugee camp was what, a week? before the festival attack. 
Their border continues to expand. They blockade the people of Gaza. 
Palestinians are not Hamas any more than East Ukrainians are Azov. 
Israel has hundreds of illegal settlements. Illegal even under Israeli law. 700,000 people live in illegal occupied land. UN recognises this as fact
The people of Gaza live in poverty. The unemployment is at 50%. They can't trade, they can't fish, they can't leave. Their skies are patrolled by Israeli fighter jets and their sea is patrolled by Israeli gun boats. They were given 24 hours to abandon their homes with nowhere to go. Leaving behind their dead and injured. 24 hours to evacuate elderly and children. Injured from Israeli assaults. All done with no water, power and very limited fuel.
In West Bank Palestinians face Israeli intimidation and military brutality on a regular basis. They lose their land and are driven back while Israeli settlers build towns. 
But yeah, it all began with a festival attack by terrorists....

The ideals of the Nazis and the ideals of Israeli Politicians is to exterminate...what I can only describe as an issue with a hated people in either a Political(Israel) sense or meg·alo·maniac(German)group of people.
There were 1000s of German people who hated the Nazis, The same with Israelis and Netanyahu and Palestinians with Hamas, Destroy your enemy before it destroys you...the trouble is it's the innocents that pay for Politicians decisions...as always😡   

I've split the above posts from the Ukraine thread. While there are some common themes I don't think it makes sense to be all in one thread. 
As always this thread will be monitored closely so, be excellent to each other (and party on, dudes). Failure to be excellent to each other will see the thread pulled. 

There was obviously no AI back then...
 

It is too complex for sides. The nuances are too numerous, the rights and wrongs too diffuse.