duncanjwitham

We pressed quite aggressively from the front under Rosenior too.  We just had to do it less often because we didn’t give the ball away so much.  A quick skim through the highlights from this season gives this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbx3yzflKlkt%3D1&t=87
 
At 1m27 an opposing defender plays a square ball that NML nips onto first, resulting in a shot on goal. And the the next highlight, McGoldrick harries a defender, nicks the ball off him and squares it for Collins to score.  There are loads of other examples of it too.
Like I said, I think the biggest change in performance was down to the change in formation. Almost every player was played in a position they were comfortable in, and you could see that both in how they played on the ball, and their understanding of their jobs re when to press etc.  if Warne had come out and said he’d made that change because players weren’t adapting well to the back 3, then I would have given him some credit. But he basically came out and said he didn’t think the formation mattered. So if he can’t see what it was that made the result so different yesterday, I don’t believe he will be able to replicate it.

Honestly, it’s not really changed my opinion.  The improved performance was down to 2 things, the change in formation meaning we had a lot more players playing in positions they are comfortable in, and Bristol being utterly dreadful. I would give credit to Warne if I thought he had made a conscious decision to change the formation to suit the players, rather than injuries forcing it, but he actively went out of his way post-match to make it clear he pretty much picks formations at random to squeeze in the players he wants, so no credit there.  And I have no faith in him sticking with the formation when everyone is fit again. Plus it’s hard to judge how much of the result was down to us playing well and them playing badly, especially when 3 of the goals were absolute defensive howlers from them.
I still think he’s a very limited manager, that has one trick to win games, and if it doesn’t work he’s clueless. And I don’t like the way he wants his football played.  But I said elsewhere in this thread that if he’d come in and taken Rosenior’s system and just put his own twist on it, then he’d have gotten a lot more slack from fans.  And I think that’s basically what we saw today. That 4231/422 system we played was close to how we were lining up for most of Rosenior’s games, but we just moved the ball forward a lot more aggressively.  He made a rod for his own back by trying to tear everything up and just re-run his Rotherham system with a completely different bunch of players.
 

Honestly, it’s not really changed my opinion.  The improved performance was down to 2 things, the change in formation meaning we had a lot more players playing in positions they are comfortable in, and Bristol being utterly dreadful. I would give credit to Warne if I thought he had made a conscious decision to change the formation to suit the players, rather than injuries forcing it, but he actively went out of his way post-match to make it clear he pretty much picks formations at random to squeeze in the players he wants, so no credit there.  And I have no faith in him sticking with the formation when everyone is fit again. Plus it’s hard to judge how much of the result was down to us playing well and them playing badly, especially when 3 of the goals were absolute defensive howlers from them.
I still think he’s a very limited manager, that has one trick to win games, and if it doesn’t work he’s clueless. And I don’t like the way he wants his football played.  But I said elsewhere in this thread that if he’d come in and taken Rosenior’s system and just put his own twist on it, then he’d have gotten a lot more slack from fans.  And I think that’s basically what we saw today. That 4231/422 system we played was close to how we were lining up for most of Rosenior’s games, but we just moved the ball forward a lot more aggressively.  He made a rod for his own back by trying to tear everything up and just re-run his Rotherham system with a completely different bunch of players.
 

It’s almost certainly the system we used second half against Exeter, with Collins for Osula.  Smith at right back in a 442, with McGoldrick dropping off the front.

For those suggesting Stearman... he will not play RCB in a back 3 for Derby. He'll either be the RCB in a back 4 or the CB in a back 3. If it's a back 4 he won't be starting, but may in a back 3 with Cashin RCB.
I can't see it being anything other than Smith, Cashin, Forsyth, Roberts today.

The thing with the academy is, there's something like a 5-10 year lag on actually seeing real results.  You want to be picking up 10-12 year olds (no sniggering at the back...) and developing them so they break through as 18-20 year olds.  Obviously with a bit of recruiting older players to fill gaps, or when we spot a genuine talent etc.
If you look at what the academy has been producing lately, it's mostly been fullbacks (Lowe, Bogle, Buchanan), wingers (Festy, Ebiowei) and small technical midfielders (Bird, Thompson,  Robinson).  None of those types of players really fit into Warne's preferred high-intensity 352 system.  So we either carry on with the academy as it is, and accept that there's no real path into the first team (which hampers recruitment of young players), or re-tool the academy in the hope that we're still playing that system in 5 years time and haven't switched back to a possession-heavy 433 or something.
if you *really* want your academy to work, you have to have a rough style of play in mind for the entire club, and recruit players for it (senior and academy), recruit managers that play it and so on.  if you chop and change every 5 minutes, you may as well not bother having an academy.

The thing with the academy is, there's something like a 5-10 year lag on actually seeing real results.  You want to be picking up 10-12 year olds (no sniggering at the back...) and developing them so they break through as 18-20 year olds.  Obviously with a bit of recruiting older players to fill gaps, or when we spot a genuine talent etc.
If you look at what the academy has been producing lately, it's mostly been fullbacks (Lowe, Bogle, Buchanan), wingers (Festy, Ebiowei) and small technical midfielders (Bird, Thompson,  Robinson).  None of those types of players really fit into Warne's preferred high-intensity 352 system.  So we either carry on with the academy as it is, and accept that there's no real path into the first team (which hampers recruitment of young players), or re-tool the academy in the hope that we're still playing that system in 5 years time and haven't switched back to a possession-heavy 433 or something.
if you *really* want your academy to work, you have to have a rough style of play in mind for the entire club, and recruit players for it (senior and academy), recruit managers that play it and so on.  if you chop and change every 5 minutes, you may as well not bother having an academy.

We knew there were still some payments for Bielik, and possibly others, that weren’t due yet. So that’s no real surprise.  The “still to be determined” parts are just screaming blackmail payments to the 2 parasite clubs though ?.

I wouldn't be totally surprised to see Roberts go back to Brighton in January.  If we're sticking with wingbacks, he's probably down the pecking order, unless injuries force us to use him at centre half.  It's not in anyone's interest for him to be here if he's not playing, and that would free up one space.

I don't think it is over the top tbh. You've basically said we're losing games because some of the squad are being lazy and unprofessional. If that were true, it would be easy to name names. And then when pressed on it, you've actually hit on the real reason, which is the lack of structure and organisation in the team.  We aren't pressing as unit, but it's not because players can't be bothered, it's because the team isn't set up properly, players are being used wrongly and so on.  You can't press as a unit if you don't know who to press and when, and you don't trust that the rest of the team know when/who to press either.
This isn't really aimed at anyone in particular, but I get really annoyed when people start accusing players of being lazy and not wanting it enough.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but there's a massive tendency in English football to blame it for literally everything. Collins missed a tap in, "didn't want it enough". Davies gave a way a pen, "didn't want it enough". and so on.  It just distracts from any real analysis of what the problem is.

"just came here thinking it would be a nice time getting good pay" implies they are lazy and unprofessional.

I don't think it is over the top tbh. You've basically said we're losing games because some of the squad are being lazy and unprofessional. If that were true, it would be easy to name names. And then when pressed on it, you've actually hit on the real reason, which is the lack of structure and organisation in the team.  We aren't pressing as unit, but it's not because players can't be bothered, it's because the team isn't set up properly, players are being used wrongly and so on.  You can't press as a unit if you don't know who to press and when, and you don't trust that the rest of the team know when/who to press either.
This isn't really aimed at anyone in particular, but I get really annoyed when people start accusing players of being lazy and not wanting it enough.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but there's a massive tendency in English football to blame it for literally everything. Collins missed a tap in, "didn't want it enough". Davies gave a way a pen, "didn't want it enough". and so on.  It just distracts from any real analysis of what the problem is.

It's not really about his ethos on bringing through players though. I genuinely have no idea on how well he did that at Rotherham, or whether it was even a priority there.
It's about the type of players that are coming through.  All those players I've named, you can instantly see where they fit into Rosenior's system - they just need to step up and do the same things there were doing for the youth teams at senior level.  They're going to have to either completely change their style of play, or learn a new position, to fit into Warne's system. So it's a much bigger ask.

The thing with the academy is, there's something like a 5-10 year lag on actually seeing real results.  You want to be picking up 10-12 year olds (no sniggering at the back...) and developing them so they break through as 18-20 year olds.  Obviously with a bit of recruiting older players to fill gaps, or when we spot a genuine talent etc.
If you look at what the academy has been producing lately, it's mostly been fullbacks (Lowe, Bogle, Buchanan), wingers (Festy, Ebiowei) and small technical midfielders (Bird, Thompson,  Robinson).  None of those types of players really fit into Warne's preferred high-intensity 352 system.  So we either carry on with the academy as it is, and accept that there's no real path into the first team (which hampers recruitment of young players), or re-tool the academy in the hope that we're still playing that system in 5 years time and haven't switched back to a possession-heavy 433 or something.
if you *really* want your academy to work, you have to have a rough style of play in mind for the entire club, and recruit players for it (senior and academy), recruit managers that play it and so on.  if you chop and change every 5 minutes, you may as well not bother having an academy.

We aren't allowed to be critical of players, manager or even owner decisions? If not, how long are we supposed to wait before we can?
In my opinion, no one should be beyond criticism. In the current situation, that includes the manager who isn't getting as much out of these players as the previous manager and has made several odd comments regarding the players, and the owner who chose to appoint a manager who wants to implement a style not suited to the squad, a decision which will seriously impact other elements of the club which have been a major plus in recent years (academy and fan unity).

You could make exactly the same arguments about the people making football decisions at board-level.  As far as I know, there's nobody higher-up making decisions that has any experience of running a football club.  I don't doubt their business-credentials, but giving Rosenior 10 games to build a squad, then replacing him with a radically different manager who has a different set of squad-requirements doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that they understand what it takes to run a football club successfully.

I don't think it is over the top tbh. You've basically said we're losing games because some of the squad are being lazy and unprofessional. If that were true, it would be easy to name names. And then when pressed on it, you've actually hit on the real reason, which is the lack of structure and organisation in the team.  We aren't pressing as unit, but it's not because players can't be bothered, it's because the team isn't set up properly, players are being used wrongly and so on.  You can't press as a unit if you don't know who to press and when, and you don't trust that the rest of the team know when/who to press either.
This isn't really aimed at anyone in particular, but I get really annoyed when people start accusing players of being lazy and not wanting it enough.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but there's a massive tendency in English football to blame it for literally everything. Collins missed a tap in, "didn't want it enough". Davies gave a way a pen, "didn't want it enough". and so on.  It just distracts from any real analysis of what the problem is.

How much compensation would we have to pay to Warne?
Asking for a friend.

Name names then.  Which of the players we've signed are too nice and just coasting through games?
Its very easy to make sweeping generalisations about players, but pretty much every player that we've signed (or at least the senior ones) have a solid history of playing regularly for teams at championship level or higher.  Are we really suggesting the likes of McGoldrick, Chester, Collins, Hourihane, NML, Barkhuizen, Smith have suddenly decided they can't be bothered anymore?  Many of these players turned down championship clubs to come and play here.
Or is it the youngsters we've got on loan or come through the academy, who have their first real chance to prove themselves in senior football, and have just decided sod-it, they never really wanted to be footballers anyway?

The way I see it, there are 2 competing factors. Obviously this season was always going to be a struggle, given the restrictions, having no squad, delayed preseason etc, so clearly nobody was expecting us to romp the league. But counter to that, the longer we stay at this level, the harder it is to get out of it - existing good players will want to move on, it being harder to convince new signings of our ambition if we’re stuck here, declining attendances potentially affecting the wages we can offer etc.  Clubs quite often bounce back out of this league almost immediately, or get stuck here.
In my mind, the best case for this season was we muddle along until January, making sure we’re not out of it completely. And then we try and get a few decent players in and kick on over the second half of the season. And we looked on pace for that.  We weren’t playing fantastically, but there were signs of a pattern of play and the new players were bedding in fairly well. And we were sat just below the playoffs, comfortably capable of mounting a charge, with a bit of luck.
I now think the season probably is a write-off - we’re drifting away from the playoffs and we need major surgery in January, not just a few tweaks and improvements, and that’s unlikely to happen.  The thing that’s really annoying me is that it’s a situation entirely of our own making.  We’ve effectively taken what looked to be a potentially promising season and decided to bin it for some future hope of something or other.

The way I see it, there are 2 competing factors. Obviously this season was always going to be a struggle, given the restrictions, having no squad, delayed preseason etc, so clearly nobody was expecting us to romp the league. But counter to that, the longer we stay at this level, the harder it is to get out of it - existing good players will want to move on, it being harder to convince new signings of our ambition if we’re stuck here, declining attendances potentially affecting the wages we can offer etc.  Clubs quite often bounce back out of this league almost immediately, or get stuck here.
In my mind, the best case for this season was we muddle along until January, making sure we’re not out of it completely. And then we try and get a few decent players in and kick on over the second half of the season. And we looked on pace for that.  We weren’t playing fantastically, but there were signs of a pattern of play and the new players were bedding in fairly well. And we were sat just below the playoffs, comfortably capable of mounting a charge, with a bit of luck.
I now think the season probably is a write-off - we’re drifting away from the playoffs and we need major surgery in January, not just a few tweaks and improvements, and that’s unlikely to happen.  The thing that’s really annoying me is that it’s a situation entirely of our own making.  We’ve effectively taken what looked to be a potentially promising season and decided to bin it for some future hope of something or other.

This.
The "you have to give the manager time" maxim is absolutely correct, but the most important corollary is that you have to believe in where the manager is taking you.  I would not give Nigel Pearson or Gary Rowett time to build the team they wanted, but I would give, say, Steve McClaren all the time in the world. 

The way I see it, there are 2 competing factors. Obviously this season was always going to be a struggle, given the restrictions, having no squad, delayed preseason etc, so clearly nobody was expecting us to romp the league. But counter to that, the longer we stay at this level, the harder it is to get out of it - existing good players will want to move on, it being harder to convince new signings of our ambition if we’re stuck here, declining attendances potentially affecting the wages we can offer etc.  Clubs quite often bounce back out of this league almost immediately, or get stuck here.
In my mind, the best case for this season was we muddle along until January, making sure we’re not out of it completely. And then we try and get a few decent players in and kick on over the second half of the season. And we looked on pace for that.  We weren’t playing fantastically, but there were signs of a pattern of play and the new players were bedding in fairly well. And we were sat just below the playoffs, comfortably capable of mounting a charge, with a bit of luck.
I now think the season probably is a write-off - we’re drifting away from the playoffs and we need major surgery in January, not just a few tweaks and improvements, and that’s unlikely to happen.  The thing that’s really annoying me is that it’s a situation entirely of our own making.  We’ve effectively taken what looked to be a potentially promising season and decided to bin it for some future hope of something or other.

The way I see it, there are 2 competing factors. Obviously this season was always going to be a struggle, given the restrictions, having no squad, delayed preseason etc, so clearly nobody was expecting us to romp the league. But counter to that, the longer we stay at this level, the harder it is to get out of it - existing good players will want to move on, it being harder to convince new signings of our ambition if we’re stuck here, declining attendances potentially affecting the wages we can offer etc.  Clubs quite often bounce back out of this league almost immediately, or get stuck here.
In my mind, the best case for this season was we muddle along until January, making sure we’re not out of it completely. And then we try and get a few decent players in and kick on over the second half of the season. And we looked on pace for that.  We weren’t playing fantastically, but there were signs of a pattern of play and the new players were bedding in fairly well. And we were sat just below the playoffs, comfortably capable of mounting a charge, with a bit of luck.
I now think the season probably is a write-off - we’re drifting away from the playoffs and we need major surgery in January, not just a few tweaks and improvements, and that’s unlikely to happen.  The thing that’s really annoying me is that it’s a situation entirely of our own making.  We’ve effectively taken what looked to be a potentially promising season and decided to bin it for some future hope of something or other.