Jourdan

Well if people stopped using that particular method of argument and decided to make points in good faith then I wouldn't need to keep using it. However, since that's exactly what you are using and then you flipped to ad hominem immediately it pretty much clarifies the position.
Yeah, it was a tongue in cheek and exaggerated post done in a way that made it abundantly clear your thoughts on the matter.
It's not being blind to the reality, it's just not taking such a hardline view one side or another. I can admit there are flaws in how we've played and that there is plenty of room for improvement but also see elements that are positive in it too. I would say that my judgement was less impaired than yours here, frankly. 

Of the games you cited, Pompey and Bolton were good away points, and a good home win vs Bolton. Ipswich away was always going to be a very tough challenge, and Wednesday at home wasn't a bad point either. 
Barnsley had a stuttering start to the season, Charlton away wasn't a good result, nor Shrewsbury, Fleetwood, Plymouth or Lincoln.
Rosenior also was able to play Barnsley, Plymouth and Peterborough at home. He didn't have to manage away against a top side. If we're honest, Rosenior didn't have tougher games did he really? 

You have used this particular strawman a couple of times now, maybe it's time to change the record? Simply, if you think Warne has a lot of apologists making excuses for him or even that he is doing that himself then you are not living in reality. 

Rosenior was in charge of the first 9 games, in which some of the teams that finished strongly were not the better sides at that point, Barnsley for example had a pretty slow start. It's kind of weird to use finishing positions to appraise performances in the first 9 games. 

I think when it works, our football under Warne can be very enjoyable and no less exciting to watch than any other top League 1 team. The challenge for Warne is to marry performances and results more consistently so we can improve on last season.
I get having a preference for passing attacking football, but there is a reason why there have only been three Derby teams in 25 years to produce it on a reasonably consistent basis.
Good passing attacking teams are not easy (nor usually cheap or quick) to produce, otherwise we would have had far more success at it in the last 25 years.
I think Derby fans in general are too wedded to this idea that we are a club that should play in a certain way. As fans of a club in our position, we surely have to be patient, understanding, open-minded, and also able to manage our expectations.
As far as I am concerned, people are expecting too much too soon when we have signed 11 new players and we are only six games in. It’s not like it’s the same team from last season with 1-2 tweaks.
Nothing points to that more than Warne being stranded somewhere between wanting to implement his ideas and having to get results by any means to keep fans off his back. Is it any wonder tactics, style and selection all seem very muddled?
We are clearly still a work in progress but once Warne figures everything out, there is a good chance we can be both competitive and exciting to watch.

I think when it works, our football under Warne can be very enjoyable and no less exciting to watch than any other top League 1 team. The challenge for Warne is to marry performances and results more consistently so we can improve on last season.
I get having a preference for passing attacking football, but there is a reason why there have only been three Derby teams in 25 years to produce it on a reasonably consistent basis.
Good passing attacking teams are not easy (nor usually cheap or quick) to produce, otherwise we would have had far more success at it in the last 25 years.
I think Derby fans in general are too wedded to this idea that we are a club that should play in a certain way. As fans of a club in our position, we surely have to be patient, understanding, open-minded, and also able to manage our expectations.
As far as I am concerned, people are expecting too much too soon when we have signed 11 new players and we are only six games in. It’s not like it’s the same team from last season with 1-2 tweaks.
Nothing points to that more than Warne being stranded somewhere between wanting to implement his ideas and having to get results by any means to keep fans off his back. Is it any wonder tactics, style and selection all seem very muddled?
We are clearly still a work in progress but once Warne figures everything out, there is a good chance we can be both competitive and exciting to watch.

Who are these players that are going to play fast, vibrant, passing attacking football?
Méndez Laing, who can’t last 60 minutes and is equal measures frustrating and exciting?
Smith and Hourihane, who can only prosper on the ball when they are given the freedom of the continent?
Sibley and Barkhuizen, who can’t stay fit or find enough consistency to get a place in the team?
Cashin, who only has a sweeping long ball in his locker?
Let’s be honest, we have a squad which is not above this level and isn’t particularly blessed with technically strong players who can play good attacking football against all comers. This is why our play orbited around McGoldrick for 70% of the season previously.
The only one who is really fit for a passing team is Bird, and currently he is injured and come January, he might be on the move.
If you want to see a good passing team, @CornwallRam is right. It will need time, patience and investment.

Difficult to answer really at this point. I haven’t enjoyed what I’ve seen so far. However, the first few games were a bit of a mess due to individual errors that cost us and caused us to look very nervous at the back. The midfield was slow which offered no support at either end of the pitch. 
We then got all the injuries and had to change formation, and managed to get some new younger legs in. 
I will reserve judgement for a couple months when the players are back to see whether I actually like it or not. 

Difficult to answer. I enjoyed it for a few months of last season as there was a time we were playing very well. Apart from that no not really. This season so far has been a hard watch for the most part. The question is what is Warnes football? Is it what we saw when we surged into 4th place last season looking to hunt down the top 2? Or is it the hopeless football we're seeing now? Let's hope it's the former.

Schumacher became manager in December 2021, so he’s been in charge for just shy of two years and his predecessor Lowe arrived in 2019. So this Plymouth project is the culmination of four years of work.
Warne hasn’t even completed his first full year in charge.
It’s OK to have high expectations, but it’s important to put realistic timescales on them.
I personally think we have played good football in patches under Warne. The key now is for him to get us in a position to produce it consistently. I think by the end of the season if the football and the results are not up to par, the club will be well within their rights to reassess.

Your posts are becoming as unimaginative and one dimensional as the manager and the football you are so quick to lament.
Did you genuinely expect us to win promotion last season? All the evidence points to there having been three far superior teams who quickly found their stride and maintained an unusually high level of consistency.
Clearly our chances of promotion were a long shot at best especially when the ‘promotion specialist’ arrived needing to make up ground (anywhere from 3-7 points) on those three teams and those same three teams all went on to finish with more than 95 points. For context, we’d have needed to get 2.19 points per game for 37 games to get close.
These were very three special teams, all of which obviously benefitted from time, patience and perseverance to build. That’s all we are asking for Warne to be given, especially in the absence of the financial freedom all three of those clubs enjoyed.
Even when we were in peak form, Wednesday were producing a similar level of consistency and ended up going 7-8 games beyond that. Plymouth also had an unbeaten run of a similar length to us at one stage of the season. Of course, Ipswich too produced incredible form towards the end of last season.
Perhaps let’s put last season to bed and focus on this season and our chances of promotion. Did Plymouth see themselves breaking records and winning titles 12 months later when they were thumped at home by MK Dons on the last day of 21-22? Probably not, but it shows you why time and allowing things to take shape can be ever so important.
Can promotion be achieved in the opening six games of the season? No. Are we in an impossible position that cannot be recovered? No. We are currently only four points from first place, not an insurmountable number. We have won three games this season, only one fewer than the best performing team. Despite being nowhere near our best, something everyone has been at pains to admit.
Perhaps if we give the squad time to gel and the manager time to work things out, it will yield the football and the results we are all hoping for?

Our best run was 9 wins and 6 draws in 15 league games. That’s over two points per game and trending for over 100 points across a 46-game season. Inevitably there would be a drop off.
6 wins and 5 draws in 18 as a stat doesn’t tell the whole story though. I don’t dispute there were poor results and poor performances but there were also games where we played reasonably well and sometimes very well but didn’t come away with the points we deserved for various reasons. It’s a combination of factors. Not just luck, but it helps.
I am not pretending anything. McGoldrick was brilliant but it’s useless to speculate on how things would have been without him. We simply do not know, for better or worse.
The calibre and experience of said players can be very misleading though. You have to look at what they can offer now and bring to the table at present. You talk of the high level experience of these players, but how telling has it been really? Only McGoldrick consistently stood out last season. The rest looked very much like League 1 players.
An ingrained brute like style? Irreversible damage caused by Warne? No better chance at promotion? Please stop. If we are playing like brutes and in mid table in April, this might be fair. But in September? It seems completely unfounded hyperbole and scaremongering.
 

Schumacher became manager in December 2021, so he’s been in charge for just shy of two years and his predecessor Lowe arrived in 2019. So this Plymouth project is the culmination of four years of work.
Warne hasn’t even completed his first full year in charge.
It’s OK to have high expectations, but it’s important to put realistic timescales on them.
I personally think we have played good football in patches under Warne. The key now is for him to get us in a position to produce it consistently. I think by the end of the season if the football and the results are not up to par, the club will be well within their rights to reassess.

Your posts are becoming as unimaginative and one dimensional as the manager and the football you are so quick to lament.
Did you genuinely expect us to win promotion last season? All the evidence points to there having been three far superior teams who quickly found their stride and maintained an unusually high level of consistency.
Clearly our chances of promotion were a long shot at best especially when the ‘promotion specialist’ arrived needing to make up ground (anywhere from 3-7 points) on those three teams and those same three teams all went on to finish with more than 95 points. For context, we’d have needed to get 2.19 points per game for 37 games to get close.
These were very three special teams, all of which obviously benefitted from time, patience and perseverance to build. That’s all we are asking for Warne to be given, especially in the absence of the financial freedom all three of those clubs enjoyed.
Even when we were in peak form, Wednesday were producing a similar level of consistency and ended up going 7-8 games beyond that. Plymouth also had an unbeaten run of a similar length to us at one stage of the season. Of course, Ipswich too produced incredible form towards the end of last season.
Perhaps let’s put last season to bed and focus on this season and our chances of promotion. Did Plymouth see themselves breaking records and winning titles 12 months later when they were thumped at home by MK Dons on the last day of 21-22? Probably not, but it shows you why time and allowing things to take shape can be ever so important.
Can promotion be achieved in the opening six games of the season? No. Are we in an impossible position that cannot be recovered? No. We are currently only four points from first place, not an insurmountable number. We have won three games this season, only one fewer than the best performing team. Despite being nowhere near our best, something everyone has been at pains to admit.
Perhaps if we give the squad time to gel and the manager time to work things out, it will yield the football and the results we are all hoping for?

Your posts are becoming as unimaginative and one dimensional as the manager and the football you are so quick to lament.
Did you genuinely expect us to win promotion last season? All the evidence points to there having been three far superior teams who quickly found their stride and maintained an unusually high level of consistency.
Clearly our chances of promotion were a long shot at best especially when the ‘promotion specialist’ arrived needing to make up ground (anywhere from 3-7 points) on those three teams and those same three teams all went on to finish with more than 95 points. For context, we’d have needed to get 2.19 points per game for 37 games to get close.
These were very three special teams, all of which obviously benefitted from time, patience and perseverance to build. That’s all we are asking for Warne to be given, especially in the absence of the financial freedom all three of those clubs enjoyed.
Even when we were in peak form, Wednesday were producing a similar level of consistency and ended up going 7-8 games beyond that. Plymouth also had an unbeaten run of a similar length to us at one stage of the season. Of course, Ipswich too produced incredible form towards the end of last season.
Perhaps let’s put last season to bed and focus on this season and our chances of promotion. Did Plymouth see themselves breaking records and winning titles 12 months later when they were thumped at home by MK Dons on the last day of 21-22? Probably not, but it shows you why time and allowing things to take shape can be ever so important.
Can promotion be achieved in the opening six games of the season? No. Are we in an impossible position that cannot be recovered? No. We are currently only four points from first place, not an insurmountable number. We have won three games this season, only one fewer than the best performing team. Despite being nowhere near our best, something everyone has been at pains to admit.
Perhaps if we give the squad time to gel and the manager time to work things out, it will yield the football and the results we are all hoping for?

Our best run was 9 wins and 6 draws in 15 league games. That’s over two points per game and trending for over 100 points across a 46-game season. Inevitably there would be a drop off.
6 wins and 5 draws in 18 as a stat doesn’t tell the whole story though. I don’t dispute there were poor results and poor performances but there were also games where we played reasonably well and sometimes very well but didn’t come away with the points we deserved for various reasons. It’s a combination of factors. Not just luck, but it helps.
I am not pretending anything. McGoldrick was brilliant but it’s useless to speculate on how things would have been without him. We simply do not know, for better or worse.
The calibre and experience of said players can be very misleading though. You have to look at what they can offer now and bring to the table at present. You talk of the high level experience of these players, but how telling has it been really? Only McGoldrick consistently stood out last season. The rest looked very much like League 1 players.
An ingrained brute like style? Irreversible damage caused by Warne? No better chance at promotion? Please stop. If we are playing like brutes and in mid table in April, this might be fair. But in September? It seems completely unfounded hyperbole and scaremongering.
 

Our best run was 9 wins and 6 draws in 15 league games. That’s over two points per game and trending for over 100 points across a 46-game season. Inevitably there would be a drop off.
6 wins and 5 draws in 18 as a stat doesn’t tell the whole story though. I don’t dispute there were poor results and poor performances but there were also games where we played reasonably well and sometimes very well but didn’t come away with the points we deserved for various reasons. It’s a combination of factors. Not just luck, but it helps.
I am not pretending anything. McGoldrick was brilliant but it’s useless to speculate on how things would have been without him. We simply do not know, for better or worse.
The calibre and experience of said players can be very misleading though. You have to look at what they can offer now and bring to the table at present. You talk of the high level experience of these players, but how telling has it been really? Only McGoldrick consistently stood out last season. The rest looked very much like League 1 players.
An ingrained brute like style? Irreversible damage caused by Warne? No better chance at promotion? Please stop. If we are playing like brutes and in mid table in April, this might be fair. But in September? It seems completely unfounded hyperbole and scaremongering.
 

Your posts are becoming as unimaginative and one dimensional as the manager and the football you are so quick to lament.
Did you genuinely expect us to win promotion last season? All the evidence points to there having been three far superior teams who quickly found their stride and maintained an unusually high level of consistency.
Clearly our chances of promotion were a long shot at best especially when the ‘promotion specialist’ arrived needing to make up ground (anywhere from 3-7 points) on those three teams and those same three teams all went on to finish with more than 95 points. For context, we’d have needed to get 2.19 points per game for 37 games to get close.
These were very three special teams, all of which obviously benefitted from time, patience and perseverance to build. That’s all we are asking for Warne to be given, especially in the absence of the financial freedom all three of those clubs enjoyed.
Even when we were in peak form, Wednesday were producing a similar level of consistency and ended up going 7-8 games beyond that. Plymouth also had an unbeaten run of a similar length to us at one stage of the season. Of course, Ipswich too produced incredible form towards the end of last season.
Perhaps let’s put last season to bed and focus on this season and our chances of promotion. Did Plymouth see themselves breaking records and winning titles 12 months later when they were thumped at home by MK Dons on the last day of 21-22? Probably not, but it shows you why time and allowing things to take shape can be ever so important.
Can promotion be achieved in the opening six games of the season? No. Are we in an impossible position that cannot be recovered? No. We are currently only four points from first place, not an insurmountable number. We have won three games this season, only one fewer than the best performing team. Despite being nowhere near our best, something everyone has been at pains to admit.
Perhaps if we give the squad time to gel and the manager time to work things out, it will yield the football and the results we are all hoping for?

Pretty much everyone except for the technically limited sides - Stevenage, Burton, Cambridge, Wycombe and Shrewsbury.
Even Leyton Orient, only just promoted from L2, will pass us off the park when we face them.

I am not sure I agree that there was such a regression. We played well at times but often would shoot ourselves in the foot, have no luck or not be able to sustain that quality of play over 90 minutes. We played some of our best football of the whole season v Plymouth, Peterborough and Wednesday away, for instance. We just couldn’t hold our nerve at key moments.
If Rosenior hadn’t signed McGoldrick, he would have signed another player. Who knows how well or how badly that player would have been suited to a Warne team? It’s impossible to say.
How do you measure the recruitment by Warne against recruitment by Rosenior? Rosenior’s signings have been here for a year or more. Warne’s signings have been here for six league games or in many cases fewer. Surely a better comparison can be made in April or May next year?
I think Warne needs until the end of the season. A whole season with his own squad of players and two transfer windows to bring in the players he wants seems fair to me. 
In the summer, there will be the opportunity to bring in someone new if we feel Warne has underachieved, and from there a new manager and the club can work without the restrictions of the business plan looming large.
How will the season be a write off? Unless we are 10+ points from the play-offs, which we are not currently and unlikely to be, we’ll have something to play for right until the very end.

Find it slightly ironic when you're asking for evidence to back up statements when the post which precipitated this debate was totally devoid of exactly that, but instead full of opinion and conjecture 

I am not sure I agree that there was such a regression. We played well at times but often would shoot ourselves in the foot, have no luck or not be able to sustain that quality of play over 90 minutes. We played some of our best football of the whole season v Plymouth, Peterborough and Wednesday away, for instance. We just couldn’t hold our nerve at key moments.
If Rosenior hadn’t signed McGoldrick, he would have signed another player. Who knows how well or how badly that player would have been suited to a Warne team? It’s impossible to say.
How do you measure the recruitment by Warne against recruitment by Rosenior? Rosenior’s signings have been here for a year or more. Warne’s signings have been here for six league games or in many cases fewer. Surely a better comparison can be made in April or May next year?
I think Warne needs until the end of the season. A whole season with his own squad of players and two transfer windows to bring in the players he wants seems fair to me. 
In the summer, there will be the opportunity to bring in someone new if we feel Warne has underachieved, and from there a new manager and the club can work without the restrictions of the business plan looming large.
How will the season be a write off? Unless we are 10+ points from the play-offs, which we are not currently and unlikely to be, we’ll have something to play for right until the very end.

I am not sure I agree that there was such a regression. We played well at times but often would shoot ourselves in the foot, have no luck or not be able to sustain that quality of play over 90 minutes. We played some of our best football of the whole season v Plymouth, Peterborough and Wednesday away, for instance. We just couldn’t hold our nerve at key moments.
If Rosenior hadn’t signed McGoldrick, he would have signed another player. Who knows how well or how badly that player would have been suited to a Warne team? It’s impossible to say.
How do you measure the recruitment by Warne against recruitment by Rosenior? Rosenior’s signings have been here for a year or more. Warne’s signings have been here for six league games or in many cases fewer. Surely a better comparison can be made in April or May next year?
I think Warne needs until the end of the season. A whole season with his own squad of players and two transfer windows to bring in the players he wants seems fair to me. 
In the summer, there will be the opportunity to bring in someone new if we feel Warne has underachieved, and from there a new manager and the club can work without the restrictions of the business plan looming large.
How will the season be a write off? Unless we are 10+ points from the play-offs, which we are not currently and unlikely to be, we’ll have something to play for right until the very end.

I am not sure I agree that there was such a regression. We played well at times but often would shoot ourselves in the foot, have no luck or not be able to sustain that quality of play over 90 minutes. We played some of our best football of the whole season v Plymouth, Peterborough and Wednesday away, for instance. We just couldn’t hold our nerve at key moments.
If Rosenior hadn’t signed McGoldrick, he would have signed another player. Who knows how well or how badly that player would have been suited to a Warne team? It’s impossible to say.
How do you measure the recruitment by Warne against recruitment by Rosenior? Rosenior’s signings have been here for a year or more. Warne’s signings have been here for six league games or in many cases fewer. Surely a better comparison can be made in April or May next year?
I think Warne needs until the end of the season. A whole season with his own squad of players and two transfer windows to bring in the players he wants seems fair to me. 
In the summer, there will be the opportunity to bring in someone new if we feel Warne has underachieved, and from there a new manager and the club can work without the restrictions of the business plan looming large.
How will the season be a write off? Unless we are 10+ points from the play-offs, which we are not currently and unlikely to be, we’ll have something to play for right until the very end.

I am not sure I agree that there was such a regression. We played well at times but often would shoot ourselves in the foot, have no luck or not be able to sustain that quality of play over 90 minutes. We played some of our best football of the whole season v Plymouth, Peterborough and Wednesday away, for instance. We just couldn’t hold our nerve at key moments.
If Rosenior hadn’t signed McGoldrick, he would have signed another player. Who knows how well or how badly that player would have been suited to a Warne team? It’s impossible to say.
How do you measure the recruitment by Warne against recruitment by Rosenior? Rosenior’s signings have been here for a year or more. Warne’s signings have been here for six league games or in many cases fewer. Surely a better comparison can be made in April or May next year?
I think Warne needs until the end of the season. A whole season with his own squad of players and two transfer windows to bring in the players he wants seems fair to me. 
In the summer, there will be the opportunity to bring in someone new if we feel Warne has underachieved, and from there a new manager and the club can work without the restrictions of the business plan looming large.
How will the season be a write off? Unless we are 10+ points from the play-offs, which we are not currently and unlikely to be, we’ll have something to play for right until the very end.