Academy thread 23/24

[Ghost of Clough]

37 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Interesting interview with Craig Fleming (have you watched @Ghost of Clough?), makes you wonder when you hear such technical talk.

Not yet. I'll probably finda bit of time to watch it over the next couple of days

[IlsonDerby]

On 11/10/2023 at 11:02, Ghost of Clough said:

If we compare him with Brown, who is the same age (only 2 days between it), and just as highly rated within our academy...

Brown has only been given 18 minutes of first team football (17 minutes in the cup vs Blackpool and 1 minute last night)
Kellyman, was given the full 90 in Europe (and got 1 assist) whilst also getting 12 minutes off the bench against Everton in the cup. He was brought on when 2-0 down to help rescue something from the game. He was given 26 minutes in the Pizza Cup last season, and was trusted to play the full 90 in their first game this season

I’m sure most people would agree I’m not Warnes biggest fan on here but isn’t there a case that Kellyman is just better than brown? That’s why he’s getting more opportunities? 
 

I mean there’s a reason we still got decent money for him aged 15/16 isn’t there and yet no one tried to poach Brown from us at the same age? 

[BondJovi]

35 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

I’m sure most people would agree I’m not Warnes biggest fan on here but isn’t there a case that Kellyman is just better than brown? That’s why he’s getting more opportunities? 
 

I mean there’s a reason we still got decent money for him aged 15/16 isn’t there and yet no one tried to poach Brown from us at the same age? 

There is that. But we are league one team. We played against a league two team who rested half the regular team, in a competition that features u21 teams of which Brown has played against!

If he isn't even trusted in that situation, when can he possibly be?

To me it sends out all the wrong messages. You need to believe that if you join this academy there will be opportunities in the first team. 

[BramcoteRam84]

Anyone suggesting Kellyman wouldn’t have got a chance here when he has performed so well given opportunities for Villa is just talking complete nonsense. If they’re good enough they will play. Is this what is going to happen when results improve on the pitch switch agenda to hammer Warne on the academy? People creating stories to fit a narrative. 
 

It’s like the whole Hughes thing people used to hammer Rowett with - Hughes left according to many on here because Rowett is (in the eyes of some) anti-football. Hughes left because he had the opportunity to go to the premier league after we failed to do so time and again.
 

Kellyman left because our situation forced us to sell him (he reportedly didn’t want to go), gutting his brother has now gone but again makes sense for the family to have them in the same place. 

In terms of recent youngsters who to some were good enough to be given a chance here:

Stretton - made of biscuits and has struggled to put a run of games together, when he has he hasn’t been prolific in league 2

Cybulski - non league and looking unlikely to make it as a league footballer

Jordan Brown - doing ok at Orient had good game at weekend but been on bench recently. Potentially still a player there but wouldn’t have warranted a place in our team since he’s gone. 

Dajaune Brown will play when he’s ready and if he’s good enough will force his way in. 
 

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

8 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Anyone suggesting Kellyman wouldn’t have got a chance here when he has performed so well given opportunities for Villa is just talking complete nonsense. If they’re good enough they will play. Is this what is going to happen when results improve on the pitch switch agenda to hammer Warne on the academy? People creating stories to fit a narrative. 
 

It’s like the whole Hughes thing people used to hammer Rowett with - Hughes left according to many on here because Rowett is (in the eyes of some) anti-football. Hughes left because he had the opportunity to go to the premier league after we failed to do so time and again.
 

Kellyman left because our situation forced us to sell him (he reportedly didn’t want to go), gutting his brother has now gone but again makes sense for the family to have them in the same place. 

In terms of recent youngsters who to some were good enough to be given a chance here:

Stretton - made of biscuits and has struggled to put a run of games together, when he has he hasn’t been prolific in league 2

Cybulski - non league and looking unlikely to make it as a league footballer

Jordan Brown - doing ok at Orient had good game at weekend but been on bench recently. Potentially still a player there but wouldn’t have warranted a place in our team since he’s gone. 

Dajaune Brown will play when he’s ready and if he’s good enough will force his way in. 
 

There’s loads that I could rip this post apart with but I’ll stick with just the one. 
 

The Kellyman family live in Derby. Omari will be training at a completely different time to his brother, so why does it make sense for them to be at the same club? He lives literally 10 minutes from the training centre at Derby and at least 45 minutes from Villa - the decision  to do that journey at least 4 times a week hasn’t been made on having their sons at the same club. 
 

The one thing you are correct with is that Omari didn’t want to leave, but believe me he realised quickly the difference in everything he was getting at Villa compared to Derby. And that is the reason his little brother has followed him. 
 

On another note, I’ve just heard our U16s have finished last out of 28 teams in a National tournament - the academy still has a lot to do to get anywhere near a mid to high Cat1 club. 
 

A lot of questions being raised around recruitment and the standard of  coaching at the minute. 

[RoyMac5]

Just now, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

A lot of questions being raised around recruitment and the standard of  coaching at the minute. 

When I asked about Omari's brother leaving you said it was decided before the new regime came in. Is what you're saying now relevant to them then?

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

9 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

When I asked about Omari's brother leaving you said it was decided before the new regime came in. Is what you're saying now relevant to them then?

I think you only have to look at the 16s losing like that to tell you everything you need to know. 
 

I’m hoping the whole of the academy are embarrassed by that. My mate said they conceded 19 goals in 5 X 40 minute games. 

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

I think you only have to look at the 16s losing like that to tell you everything you need to know. 
 

I’m hoping the whole of the academy are embarrassed by that. My mate said they conceded 19 goals in 5 X 40 minute games. 

Is it 'chicken and egg' too? Why do young players want to choose a league 1 club no matter how good our facilities are?

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Is it 'chicken and egg' too? Why do young players want to choose a league 1 club no matter how good our facilities are?

For new players definitely. For ones that have been in and around the academy for years and only live a stones throw away, the decision should be easy. But, when you can see the grass is greener, you get tempted. 

[tinman]

13 hours ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

There’s loads that I could rip this post apart with but I’ll stick with just the one. 
 

The Kellyman family live in Derby. Omari will be training at a completely different time to his brother, so why does it make sense for them to be at the same club? He lives literally 10 minutes from the training centre at Derby and at least 45 minutes from Villa - the decision  to do that journey at least 4 times a week hasn’t been made on having their sons at the same club. 
 

The one thing you are correct with is that Omari didn’t want to leave, but believe me he realised quickly the difference in everything he was getting at Villa compared to Derby. And that is the reason his little brother has followed him. 
 

On another note, I’ve just heard our U16s have finished last out of 28 teams in a National tournament - the academy still has a lot to do to get anywhere near a mid to high Cat1 club. 
 

A lot of questions being raised around recruitment and the standard of  coaching at the minute. 

It’s that the U16 Premier League cup that was held at Loughborough this weekend?

[BramcoteRam84]

15 hours ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

There’s loads that I could rip this post apart with but I’ll stick with just the one. 
 

The Kellyman family live in Derby. Omari will be training at a completely different time to his brother, so why does it make sense for them to be at the same club? He lives literally 10 minutes from the training centre at Derby and at least 45 minutes from Villa - the decision  to do that journey at least 4 times a week hasn’t been made on having their sons at the same club. 
 

The one thing you are correct with is that Omari didn’t want to leave, but believe me he realised quickly the difference in everything he was getting at Villa compared to Derby. And that is the reason his little brother has followed him. 
 

On another note, I’ve just heard our U16s have finished last out of 28 teams in a National tournament - the academy still has a lot to do to get anywhere near a mid to high Cat1 club. 
 

A lot of questions being raised around recruitment and the standard of  coaching at the minute. 

There’s a lot in there. Clearly you know the Kellyman situation better than me, but seems a case of Villa facilities/coaching being a better option which you would expect and Villa have always had a decent record for delivering talent. I stand by my comments that he would play if he was here and the same with Brown if he’s good enough - which was my main point.

That being said - you outline an academy in disarray, looking at it potential factors could be:

- Academy has been decimated by administration and it will take time to recover

- There are legacy issues from past custodians of the academy who maybe didn’t do the job we thought they were doing and left unchecked have been complacent and are in part responsible for a lack of a pipeline now.

- There are potential issues with the new academy structure, people brought in that won’t address the issues and not move things forward.

Which one of these in your view is it, or is it a combination of all three and how much is this legacy issue vs decisions taken since Clowes took over and is there confidence in the people now brought in that given time will get the academy back to where it needs to be?  I remember Warne (I think could’ve been Pearce) saying it will 2-3 years to fix the academy at the recent fans forum. 

[RoyMac5]

41 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

There’s a lot in there. Clearly you know the Kellyman situation better than me, but seems a case of Villa facilities/coaching being a better option which you would expect and Villa have always had a decent record for delivering talent. I stand by my comments that he would play if he was here and the same with Brown if he’s good enough - which was my main point.

That being said - you outline an academy in disarray, looking at it potential factors could be:

- Academy has been decimated by administration and it will take time to recover

- There are legacy issues from past custodians of the academy who maybe didn’t do the job we thought they were doing and left unchecked have been complacent and are in part responsible for a lack of a pipeline now.

- There are potential issues with the new academy structure, people brought in that won’t address the issues and not move things forward.

Which one of these in your view is it, or is it a combination of all three and how much is this legacy issue vs decisions taken since Clowes took over and is there confidence in the people now brought in that given time will get the academy back to where it needs to be?  I remember Warne (I think could’ve been Pearce) saying it will 2-3 years to fix the academy at the recent fans forum. 

Played by Warne who wouldn't play Tommo?

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

There’s a lot in there. Clearly you know the Kellyman situation better than me, but seems a case of Villa facilities/coaching being a better option which you would expect and Villa have always had a decent record for delivering talent. I stand by my comments that he would play if he was here and the same with Brown if he’s good enough - which was my main point.

That being said - you outline an academy in disarray, looking at it potential factors could be:

- Academy has been decimated by administration and it will take time to recover

- There are legacy issues from past custodians of the academy who maybe didn’t do the job we thought they were doing and left unchecked have been complacent and are in part responsible for a lack of a pipeline now.

- There are potential issues with the new academy structure, people brought in that won’t address the issues and not move things forward.

Which one of these in your view is it, or is it a combination of all three and how much is this legacy issue vs decisions taken since Clowes took over and is there confidence in the people now brought in that given time will get the academy back to where it needs to be?  I remember Warne (I think could’ve been Pearce) saying it will 2-3 years to fix the academy at the recent fans forum. 

I’m going to weigh in a bit here as someone who I think knows the academy fairly well. I hate to say in the know because I’m not.

The academy is not in disarray, it is going through a period of change following Covid and a number of years of complacency and under investment. 
 

Is it fit for purpose right now? That’s the question. It is producing players who can go on to play in our first team and as regards to how many, well Sibley, Bird, Knight all came through earlier than normal the 2 years behind them age group wise were always very poor in terms of who would make it and then you go into the 2004 batch who are showing returns..

In that batch are Evans, Moloney, Moore who are at the club still. Evans training first team every day and having another good season for the u21s. He is expected to be a first team GK over the next few years. The first one through the academy for a very long time and the only one to have come through from u6…
 

Also there were Gordon and Ryan left for pastures new and whilst neither tearing it up in the first team both are with established Premier league clubs and expected to play at a level. Add to that Delap (younger) at Burton, Hickingbottom at Barnsley and Flannagan at Mansfield who were all released but have gone on to show real promise at other clubs. Flannagan coming on as a sub for Mansfield the other night.

2005 Kellyman and Sharpe sold for profit. Hawkins, Davidson, Wheeldon, Cox and Dajaune Brown still at the club.

2006 Thompson, McAndrew, Allen amongst others added to then Man Utd 3 who went during admin. 
 

I won’t discuss anyone below that age as generally their names aren’t in the public arena yet but I can tell you that there are more to come including another GK already identified by England and wanted by a number of clubs.
 

Wassall had a period of having exceptional coaches with huge experience, think Delap and Walker who brought through the Sibley generation. Unfortunately towards the end it turned into a bit of “his kingdom” and that had an affect overall. 
 

Hale has vast experience and so do a number of his coaches. Buxton had his spell in management and others are recognised in the game including at least 3 involved with England at junior levels..

There haven’t been many since the Sibley generation but others are on the brink. They are being allowed to develop out of the glare and that will benefit them in the long term as well as the club. 
 

it doesn’t matter if Kellyman would have got a chance as he’s not here but I do agree there needs to be a path to the first team and that definitely isn’t as clear as before under this management and that IMO is a long term worry as we can’t use facilities as a selling point anymore as we are behind everyone and I mean every CAT 1 and some CAT 2s in the travel time.

I just think it’s unfair to hammer the academy and honestly we have not competed that well in Junior Premier league tournaments for the last 8 years that I know of including those years that the club superstars played. Yes I know we won the u18 but again look at who was playing that year and who the coaches were…

We still have a good academy and in the next 2 years we will see the benefit again if the pathway to the first team is clear and maintained. 

[RoyMac5]

4 minutes ago, ExiledinDerby said:

but I do agree there needs to be a path to the first team and that definitely isn’t as clear as before under this management and that IMO is a long term worry as we can’t use facilities as a selling point anymore as we are behind everyone and I mean every CAT 1 and some CAT 2s in the travel time.

I just think it’s unfair to hammer the academy and honestly we have not competed that well in Junior Premier league tournaments for the last 8 years that I know of including those years that the club superstars played. Yes I know we won the u18 but again look at who was playing that year and who the coaches were…

We still have a good academy and in the next 2 years we will see the benefit again if the pathway to the first team is clear and maintained. 

So what has happened here then, in what way are we behind every other Cat 1 academy?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

So what has happened here then, in what way are we behind every other Cat 1 academy?

In terms of facilities predominantly we were once the best in the region.

We also lost a number of good quality coaches under Wassall that needed to be replaced. It’s getting there.

what I don’t agree with is that the academy is not producing players. It is. 

 

[BramcoteRam84]

15 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Played by Warne who wouldn't play Tommo?

Playing him now isn’t he. 

[BramcoteRam84]

15 minutes ago, ExiledinDerby said:

I’m going to weigh in a bit here as someone who I think knows the academy fairly well. I hate to say in the know because I’m not.

The academy is not in disarray, it is going through a period of change following Covid and a number of years of complacency and under investment. 
 

Is it fit for purpose right now? That’s the question. It is producing players who can go on to play in our first team and as regards to how many, well Sibley, Bird, Knight all came through earlier than normal the 2 years behind them age group wise were always very poor in terms of who would make it and then you go into the 2004 batch who are showing returns..

In that batch are Evans, Moloney, Moore who are at the club still. Evans training first team every day and having another good season for the u21s. He is expected to be a first team GK over the next few years. The first one through the academy for a very long time and the only one to have come through from u6…
 

Also there were Gordon and Ryan left for pastures new and whilst neither tearing it up in the first team both are with established Premier league clubs and expected to play at a level. Add to that Delap (younger) at Burton, Hickingbottom at Barnsley and Flannagan at Mansfield who were all released but have gone on to show real promise at other clubs. Flannagan coming on as a sub for Mansfield the other night.

2005 Kellyman and Sharpe sold for profit. Hawkins, Davidson, Wheeldon, Cox and Dajaune Brown still at the club.

2006 Thompson, McAndrew, Allen amongst others added to then Man Utd 3 who went during admin. 
 

I won’t discuss anyone below that age as generally their names aren’t in the public arena yet but I can tell you that there are more to come including another GK already identified by England and wanted by a number of clubs.
 

Wassall had a period of having exceptional coaches with huge experience, think Delap and Walker who brought through the Sibley generation. Unfortunately towards the end it turned into a bit of “his kingdom” and that had an affect overall. 
 

Hale has vast experience and so do a number of his coaches. Buxton had his spell in management and others are recognised in the game including at least 3 involved with England at junior levels..

There haven’t been many since the Sibley generation but others are on the brink. They are being allowed to develop out of the glare and that will benefit them in the long term as well as the club. 
 

it doesn’t matter if Kellyman would have got a chance as he’s not here but I do agree there needs to be a path to the first team and that definitely isn’t as clear as before under this management and that IMO is a long term worry as we can’t use facilities as a selling point anymore as we are behind everyone and I mean every CAT 1 and some CAT 2s in the travel time.

I just think it’s unfair to hammer the academy and honestly we have not competed that well in Junior Premier league tournaments for the last 8 years that I know of including those years that the club superstars played. Yes I know we won the u18 but again look at who was playing that year and who the coaches were…

We still have a good academy and in the next 2 years we will see the benefit again if the pathway to the first team is clear and maintained. 

Thanks for a really informative insight and sounds like we have the right people involved to get things back on track. 

[Comrade 86]

17 hours ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

I think you only have to look at the 16s losing like that to tell you everything you need to know. 
 

I’m hoping the whole of the academy are embarrassed by that. My mate said they conceded 19 goals in 5 X 40 minute games. 

When you say many are not pleased with the coaching levels, are you meaning JB and the current team? I'd thought the U18s were playing well and that there was improvement from the older boys too? 

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

1 hour ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

There’s a lot in there. Clearly you know the Kellyman situation better than me, but seems a case of Villa facilities/coaching being a better option which you would expect and Villa have always had a decent record for delivering talent. I stand by my comments that he would play if he was here and the same with Brown if he’s good enough - which was my main point.

That being said - you outline an academy in disarray, looking at it potential factors could be:

- Academy has been decimated by administration and it will take time to recover

- There are legacy issues from past custodians of the academy who maybe didn’t do the job we thought they were doing and left unchecked have been complacent and are in part responsible for a lack of a pipeline now.

- There are potential issues with the new academy structure, people brought in that won’t address the issues and not move things forward.

Which one of these in your view is it, or is it a combination of all three and how much is this legacy issue vs decisions taken since Clowes took over and is there confidence in the people now brought in that given time will get the academy back to where it needs to be?  I remember Warne (I think could’ve been Pearce) saying it will 2-3 years to fix the academy at the recent fans forum. 

There's many reasons the academy is where it is right now. 

Do I think the new academy structure will work - Yes I do. Will it take time - probably longer than the 2-3 years what has been mentioned but I do think we'll see quick progress.

I only get to see some academy games and from what I've seen and heard, the U16's have struggled as a team but do still have a few players that have a chance. @ExiledinDerbywill probably agree, all of the talk in the age groups currently is around the U15s and this is possibly where the 2-3 years comes from. They have some real talent in that team but they also play really well as a team. 

I'd expect in the next 2 years we'll see some potential come through. 

But back to your original question, Omari's younger brother had already told Derby they were leaving before DW left - would they have left if they knew changes were coming - who knows?? 

[Ghost of Clough]

2 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Playing him now isn’t he. 

Brought on for injury time against Wigan and Burton. Then brought on at LW for 30 mins against Oxford, and started against Fleetwood and Peterborough because "there was no one else". We've since Signed Fornah, so the chances of Thompson getting game time at CM are very small.