The 6 Nations & RWC 2023 Thread

[Comrade 86]

Steve Borthwick in his own words:

 

[Comrade 86]

Bloody hell! 

This has been coming a while now, but we finally have confirmation that as of July 23rd, no tackles above the waistline will be allowed. It's not clear how any such tackles would be penalised at this point (my guess would be a simple pen and perhaps a yellow on a totting up basis), but I'm guessing the RFU see the main benefits as two-fold; firstly, a reduction in these horrible career ending head to head / shoulder concussions and the long term damage they effect. Secondly, an increase in offloads leading to far more flowing game with a deal less emphasis on bulk and power and more on mobility, speed and ball skills.

Sounds great in some respects, but there's been no clarification about the ruck and maul elements of the game as yet and my gut feeling is that this might be a step too far.  My principle concern would be that we are simply moving concussions for players being tackled to the tacklers themselves. Knees and hips can do just as much damage as a shoulder, after all. Also, will all Unions be following suit? What about RWC2023. 

The only thing MDV and I appear to agree on is that the RFU are not a terribly admirable collective and this seems to me to be a measure mostly rooted in litigation avoidance, with little thought about protecting the nature of the game itself.  I think the raft of legal claims has forced their hand and having had their heads in the sand for far too long, this is the poorly thought out finger in the dam. Just my opinion, mind! 

Anyway, a few links for your perusal:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64333462

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/rfu-confirm-waist-high-tackling-for-amateur-rugby-across-england/

https://www.planetrugby.com/news/england-tackle-height-lowered-to-reduce-concussions-in-community-rugby

[Van der MoodHoover]

Back when I was coached, tackling was always about taking the legs to stop the run. And you took responsibility for where you put your own head.

It seems that the development of tackling has followed all sorts of rule changes down the years such as which team gets the put in when forward progress stalls and so on. Hence "choke tackles" and more convergence to the rugby league style. I guess the development of more upper body strength has also played a part.

It does sound like a reactive measure rather than a thought out strategy.

 

[Comrade 86]

Quins vs Sharks an absolute belter of a game. Those looking for more invention from the England set up will be rightly excited that Nick Evans, the Quin's Kiwi attack coach has taken the same role within the new England regime. They really do play some sublime rugby when they get on the front foot and despite a close (ish) scoreline that flatters a very good Sharks team massively, they seemed to score almost at will for large portions of the game. 

[Comrade 86]

Dropping like flies ? Daly, who has been back in prime form in recent weeks, out for 12 weeks with a major hamstring tear. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64426343

[CWC1983]

Got tickets today for Wales Ireland next week.  Going as a neutral. 

Got offered 2 free tickets this week via work for Scotland v Wales 12 Feb and it included hospitality in Hearts new stand. 

I had to fund travel and accommodation myself, cost circa £350 and the 1st train back on the Sunday got me home at 5pm....

if it was the Saturday 215pm game I might of considered it but the overnight stay in Edinburgh is expensive for the 445pm game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BucksRam]

On 19/01/2023 at 15:53, 86 Hair Islands said:

Bloody hell! 

This has been coming a while now, but we finally have confirmation that as of July 23rd, no tackles above the waistline will be allowed. It's not clear how any such tackles would be penalised at this point (my guess would be a simple pen and perhaps a yellow on a totting up basis), but I'm guessing the RFU see the main benefits as two-fold; firstly, a reduction in these horrible career ending head to head / shoulder concussions and the long term damage they effect. Secondly, an increase in offloads leading to far more flowing game with a deal less emphasis on bulk and power and more on mobility, speed and ball skills.

Sounds great in some respects, but there's been no clarification about the ruck and maul elements of the game as yet and my gut feeling is that this might be a step too far.  My principle concern would be that we are simply moving concussions for players being tackled to the tacklers themselves. Knees and hips can do just as much damage as a shoulder, after all. Also, will all Unions be following suit? What about RWC2023. 

The only thing MDV and I appear to agree on is that the RFU are not a terribly admirable collective and this seems to me to be a measure mostly rooted in litigation avoidance, with little thought about protecting the nature of the game itself.  I think the raft of legal claims has forced their hand and having had their heads in the sand for far too long, this is the poorly thought out finger in the dam. Just my opinion, mind! 

Anyway, a few links for your perusal:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64333462

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/rfu-confirm-waist-high-tackling-for-amateur-rugby-across-england/

https://www.planetrugby.com/news/england-tackle-height-lowered-to-reduce-concussions-in-community-rugby

I get the sentiment of why they're doing it but it's poorly thought out IMO as will do nothing to promote the sport.  How are you going to tackle someone who breaks out right next to you? You'd normally grab their arm, round their waist / chest, the back of their shirt, whatever but I see it now with players a performing football-esque move of standing back raising their hands to show refs "look I'm not tackling him".  Didn't they do similar in South Africa, but have a horizontal tackle line on shirts at armpit level? If so, I get that. Anything other than the head/neck should be fair game. Won't be too long before they band heading in football. 

[Comrade 86]

24 minutes ago, CWC1983 said:

Got tickets today for Wales Ireland next week.  Going as a neutral. 

Got offered 2 free tickets this week via work for Scotland v Wales 12 Feb and it included hospitality in Hearts new stand. 

I had to fund travel and accommodation myself, cost circa £350 and the 1st train back on the Sunday got me home at 5pm....

if it was the Saturday 215pm game I might of considered it but the overnight stay in Edinburgh is expensive for the 445pm game.

Tough start for a Wales team that's been going backwards for some time. Pivac had a shocker and coached out all that typically makes the Welsh team dangerous, that open-running, ball in hand type rugby. Not sure reverting to Warren-Ball is necessarily going to yield instant improvement, but he's respected, knows the players and has had success with the national side before. Can't really see beyond a comfortable Irish win all the same.

Nice work on the tickets - my lad is just finishing up his Masters and I've promised him we'll go to the home games at Twickenham next year. Contemplating RWC tickets as a surprise, but they are fiercely expensive. I've a couple of places to stay in Paris though, so it's a definite maybe. Such a shame that rugby is so expensive to watch as it does rather limit its exposure to a fairly well-heeled minority, especially at HQ where some of the prices are frankly ridiculous. Be nice to see more young'uns at games.

[Comrade 86]

14 minutes ago, BucksRam said:

I get the sentiment of why they're doing it but it's poorly thought out IMO as will do nothing to promote the sport.  How are you going to tackle someone who breaks out right next to you? You'd normally grab their arm, round their waist / chest, the back of their shirt, whatever but I see it now with players a performing football-esque move of standing back raising their hands to show refs "look I'm not tackling him".  Didn't they do similar in South Africa, but have a horizontal tackle line on shirts at armpit level? If so, I get that. Anything other than the head/neck should be fair game. Won't be too long before they band heading in football. 

Players and coaches weighing in left, right and centre and I'd not be surprised to see a u-turn. Armpit and below is clearly the way to go. All very well saying that player should know how to go low but it's not that simple getting your head on the right side every time. Even some wingers are edging up to the 100KG size and they can still step. I think we'll see more concussions not less which is why I think the RFU have acted purely in self-interest to illustrate they are at least doing 'something' about it. They are already seemingly saying that 'waist' does not actually mean 'waist'.

Honestly, they really are a dhead collective. Like football, some rugby ruling bodies are clearly not fit for purpose, the RFU and WRU being the prime examples.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64430226

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64414430

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64415586

 

 

[CWC1983]

2 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

 

Nice work on the tickets - my lad is just finishing up his Masters and I've promised him we'll go to the home games at Twickenham next year. Contemplating RWC tickets as a surprise, but they are fiercely expensive. I've a couple of places to stay in Paris though, so it's a definite maybe. Such a shame that rugby is so expensive to watch as it does rather limit its exposure to a fairly well-heeled minority, especially at HQ where some of the prices are frankly ridiculous. Be nice to see more young'uns at games.

Good luck getting Twickenham tickets, almost as bad as trying to get Dublin ones. 

I was looking at the RWC website this week and you are correct, prices are a lot higher than I expected and tickets very scarce. I imagine they are in the hands of ticket agencies. 

Scotland are in Paris v Ireland and Marseille v South Africa so I looked at flights and they were ridiculous. 

The national football team are in Cyprus in Sept, do I might settle for a week there instead. 

[Comrade 86]

1 hour ago, CWC1983 said:

Good luck getting Twickenham tickets, almost as bad as trying to get Dublin ones. 

I was looking at the RWC website this week and you are correct, prices are a lot higher than I expected and tickets very scarce. I imagine they are in the hands of ticket agencies. 

Scotland are in Paris v Ireland and Marseille v South Africa so I looked at flights and they were ridiculous. 

The national football team are in Cyprus in Sept, do I might settle for a week there instead. 

Best way to get them is through a club buddy. Buying them from the tickets sites is like passing a kidney stone ?

[BucksRam]

13 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Best way to get them is through a club buddy. Buying them from the tickets sites is like passing a kidney stone ?

Exactly how I get them (via a mate). Will do 1 x 6 nations and usually 1, sometimes 2 autumn internationals each year, but it's upwards of £100 a pop, plus travel, drink etc. I did a feedback questionnaire last year and said the prices were ridiculous, but if they're filling the stadium each time, why drop them. 

[Comrade 86]

Almost there now and the excitement is palpable. Bothwick's first squad was released this afternoon and despite  the host of injury-related omissions, it does have a fresh look to it. What seems clear already is that as has always been the case with Steve, he'll pick players on form not reputation and if you're not turning up for your club currently, you won't be turning up for England either. Personally, I welcome this. The squads for the Calcutta Cup game is as follows:

England: 

Steward; Malins, Marchant, Farrell (capt), Hassell-Collins; Smith, Van Poortvliet; Genge, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Chessum, Ludlam, B Curry, Dombrandt.

Replacements: Walker, M Vunipola, Cole, Isiekwe, Earl, Youngs, Lawrence, Watson.

Scotland: 

Hogg; Steyn, Jones, Tuipulotu, Van der Merwe; Russell, White; Schoeman, Turner, Nel; R Gray, Gilchrist; Ritchie (capt), Crosbie, M Fagerson.

Replacements: Brown, Bhatti, Berghan, J Gray, Dempsey, Horne, Kinghorn, Harris.

To my way of thinking, Scotland start as marginal favourites, despite England enjoying home field advantage. Borthwick and his team will be trying new personnel, a new defensive set-up and will be encouraged to play a far more expansive game than under EJ and these changes do not happen overnight. Conversely, Scotland, whilst remaining infuriatingly inconsistent, played some wonderful stuff last year and particularly in the Autumn internationals and really should have beaten the Kiwis last time they met. As always, much will depend on which Scotland turn up, but they'll not fear England and I can see their brand of broken play rugby giving a new look England plenty to think about. 

As for England, most reasonable fans will accept this is very much a transitional phase for the squad. A perceived lack of heart led to the team being booed off the field against the Saffas in the Autumn, so the base requirement will be for the lads to show some ambition and heart. If they can adapt quickly, secure quick ball and establish a rhythm, they can be a handful for anyone. That's a lot if 'if's' though! 

Earlier on Saturday, Wales welcome Ireland to the Principality Stadium and whilst I expect an uptick on their lacklustre recent form, I can only see an Ireland win. In what promises to be an interesting tournament, England, Scotland and even Italy, all have the ability to ruffle feathers, but for me, this all comes down to the Ireland vs France game the following weekend. On current form, they are a class apart.

Whatever the outcomes, with the various ruling bodies all under scrutiny for a wide variety of unwelcome failings, it'll be nice for us egg-chasing fans to get a return to watching the game we love rather than reading about 'leadership' shortcomings. Can't wait!

COE

Edited February 2, 2023 by 86 Hair Islands

[Van der MoodHoover]

Borthwick has had a difficult start with injuries so be interesting to see how the new lads go.

Key look outs for me this afternoon...

- the extent to which to the quins contingent can transfer their attacking flair to England.

- whether the pack can start to turn the tide of scrum penalties. Curious article in the Mirror about the lack of engagement between England scrum coaching up under EJ and the refs. Hoping Cockerills appointment will be positive.

 

Even game for me. Could go either way.

[RadioactiveWaste]

Wow, that was a good match.

Scotland won but that was a very close and competetive game. Some very memorable trys, a lot of good defending.

I'll admit I don't really know a lot about rugby but when the commentators are giving it big wows I'll accept it as something worthwhile.

If I know Scotland, however, this surely means several mediocer defeats for the rest of the six nations, right?

[Comrade 86]

Fine margins. I fancied Scotland to win but disappointed all the same. Cracking game for the neutrals and while the England camp may feel downbeat, there were some positives despite the result. Credit to Scotland too. They were very brave today.

[Van der MoodHoover]

Kevin Sinfield got some work to do on that England defence.

Or, try not playing OF at 12 as he seems out of position quite a bit.

Exciting game, but 6N will be between Ireland and France,the rest of us look to be off their level.

[CWC1983]

On my way back from Cardiff. 

Very impressive Irish performance, brutal up front and in defence. 

Wales gave it a go 2nd half. 

So many Irish around the city and stadium. 

[Comrade 86]

Few bodies back in the 36 man squad for England's game against Italy. Slade, Lawes and Arundel. If fit enough, you'd imagine Slade would go straight in at 12 which I'd assume means Farrell moving back to 10 and Marcus Smith among the replacements. Courtney always seems to improve our set piece and god knows, it's needed improvement, but perhaps most exciting of all is young Henry Arundel. Not sure whether he'll go straight into the team but for me he's the most exciting young English player in a long, long time. Here's a clip of the lad demonstrating he has some serious wheels on him and an eye for a gap that most of our back don't possess.

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

Slade is predominantly an  outside centre (or at least that seems to be where he has played the great majority of his career). Putting him in at 12 instead of Farrell would seem to be swapping one out of position player for another.

That said, Smith and Farrell not working and to pre-empt any anti-Borthwick allegations, this was an EJ construct so if Steve Borthwick moves on then that's fair play to him.

Conventional tactics seems to be a big bully for no 12. We haven't really replaced Tuilagi (not that he deserves to be anywhere near the squad on form).