The Administration Thread

[PistoldPete]

2 minutes ago, The Baron said:

All taxes. Morris had racked up a £29m total tax creditor when he put the club into administration, over £10m higher than the next largest tax creditor in the Championship. 

 

 

But as you have said many times our wage bill was massive. So for 15 months of the pandemic we had no income from the fans  yet were clocking up a massive PAYE tax and NI bill... which Morris wasnt paying obviously as he had decided not to fund the club anymore.    The question you were asked which you are still dodging is how much of that big tax bill had accrued prior to COVID. I think the answer is very little of it had accrued prior to COVID.
 

[The Baron]

1 minute ago, PistoldPete said:

But as you have said many times our wage bill was massive. So for 15 months of the pandemic we had no income from the fans  yet were clocking up a massive PAYE tax and NI bill... which Morris wasnt paying obviously as he had decided not to fund the club anymore.    The question you were asked which you are still dodging is how much of that big tax bill had accrued prior to COVID. I think the answer is very little of it had accrued prior to COVID.
 

Fair enough, you think one thing, I think another. Would HMRC have applied for a winding up order in January if 'very little' tax was owed though? 

[G STAR RAM]

10 minutes ago, The Baron said:

All taxes. Morris had racked up a £29m total tax creditor when he put the club into administration, over £10m higher than the next largest tax creditor in the Championship. 

 

 

£29m is what has been run up in total to date, we know this as it is in the administrators update.

You said that we already owed significant sums to HMRC before Covid, I am looking for clarification on the amount and how you are privvy to such information?

[I know nuffin]

1 hour ago, The Baron said:

Premier League has enforced financial punishments in relation to Leicester, (Plucky Little) Bournemouth and Fulham. 

Yep. Didn't they fine them which was very little if you take into account in breaking the rules they got bout 150 million or more plus parachute payments if relegated or in Leicester's case about a billion over the years

[The Baron]

3 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

But as you have said many times our wage bill was massive. So for 15 months of the pandemic we had no income from the fans  yet were clocking up a massive PAYE tax and NI bill... which Morris wasnt paying obviously as he had decided not to fund the club anymore.    The question you were asked which you are still dodging is how much of that big tax bill had accrued prior to COVID. I think the answer is very little of it had accrued prior to COVID.
 

If Morris had decided to not fund the club anymore that is one thing, he could have put the club into administration far earlier. For him to use the taxpayer as a means of funding it instead does not reflect well on him IMO. 

[The Baron]

2 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

£29m is what has been run up in total to date, we know this as it is in the administrators update.

You said that we already owed significant sums to HMRC before Covid, I am looking for clarification on the amount and how you are privvy to such information?

Because HMRC issued a winding up order in January 2020, they would not have done that for a trivial sum. 

[G STAR RAM]

14 minutes ago, David said:

Wasn't ours different though....which drew the initial attention from our friend with the calculator?....

Yes but compliant with FRS 102 seems to be the verdict of most.

Some businesses will depreciate assets on a straight line basis, some on a reducing balance basis.

As long as it is follows Financial Reporting Standards and is explained in the notes to the accounts its not an issue.

 

[Day]

3 minutes ago, The Baron said:

Because HMRC issued a winding up order in January 2020, they would not have done that for a trivial sum. 

Forest had one for £1.8m from HMRC, seems pretty trivial to what we owe doesn't it?

https://www.accountancydaily.co/nottingham-forest-boot-winding-order-touch

Was in the Nottingham Post also, yet the article has since been removed.

[G STAR RAM]

3 minutes ago, The Baron said:

Because HMRC issued a winding up order in January 2020, they would not have done that for a trivial sum. 

Depends what you class as trivial?

I would class £1m as not being trivial to HMRC but being trivial against a total debt of £29m.

Is it fair to say that you have no idea of the amount and therefore should not be referring to it as 'significant sums' to try and justify a point about Covid not being the primary reason for us being put in administration?

As I've already pointed out, the time this happened is when we are told that MM was expecting Fake Sheikh to also pick up the wage bill, hence why the PAYE debt may have also gone unpaid. 

If Im talking rubbish and you have other information that you can't disclose, just say, I won't be offended.

[I know nuffin]

17 minutes ago, The Baron said:

You're assuming that the accounting policy, described as 'at best confusing, at worst seriously misleading' was picked up by the inspection. 

Think you have answered that yourself. Auditing is to pick up confusing and misleading things especially when do e by the governing body. They of all people cannot afford to get it wrong

[PistoldPete]

18 minutes ago, The Baron said:

You're assuming that the accounting policy, described as 'at best confusing, at worst seriously misleading' was picked up by the inspection. 

From the IDC findings in July 2021 (para 60))

"The Notes (the wording of which
changed slightly each year) thus described a ‘new’ amortisation policy which, on
the EFL’s case, was more radical and more obviously objectionable than the
amortisation policy in fact implemented and operated by the Club, since the
Notes implied that the Club had adopted a policy which allocated a residual
value (other than £zero) to a player at the end of his contract – something that
was plainly inappropriate post Bosman(3) Such matters are inconsistent with the Club having been attempting to conceal
the change of amortisation policy, or to downplay the nature or significance of
the change with a view to diverting attention away from the change"

 

So in other words the misleading note, if it misled anyone,  would have only misled them into thinking Derby were more non-compliant than they actually were.

[The Baron]

2 minutes ago, I know nuffin said:

Think you have answered that yourself. Auditing is to pick up confusing and misleading things especially when do e by the governing body. They of all people cannot afford to get it wrong

They fail to spot issues regularly though, just look at all the accounting/financial scandals over the years for far bigger companies than DCFC. 

[kevinhectoring]

20 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

The size of the debt suggests we stopped paying tax at the start of the 19/20 season. I'd so, the amount owed in Jan 2020 would be about £7-10m. Winding up order closed when government prevented it from progressing any further due to Covid?

yes it's a shameful aspect of our recent history. I think MM just went from potential sale to potential sale thinking: the new owners will clear the arrears. Probably encouraged by his erstwhile mate, Samuelson. And the hole just got bigger and bigger, as the sale process was bungled and re-bungled   

Then he woke up one morning and thought: well, the fans are against me, Gibbo has me over a barrel and he has the EFL running scared. So far it's cost me 200 big ones. You know what, I'm just not putting any more in.  

[PistoldPete]

12 minutes ago, The Baron said:

If Morris had decided to not fund the club anymore that is one thing, he could have put the club into administration far earlier. For him to use the taxpayer as a means of funding it instead does not reflect well on him IMO. 

He was trying to sell the club as well and I think there were lots of discussions about who would bail EFL clubs out ... the Government, the EPL or whoever. In Derbys case, in the end none of them did.

But yes it doesnt reflect well on Morris that he put us into admin, that's an understatement.

   

[TooFarInToTurnRed]

10 minutes ago, The Baron said:

Because HMRC issued a winding up order in January 2020, they would not have done that for a trivial sum. 

Is not a significant part of the HMRC bill not for Capital Gains on the sale of PP? The “sale” was made during 2018/19 tax year so would need to have been reported by the end of December 2019 and therefore explain why significant sum was owing in January 2020.

 

[PistoldPete]

10 minutes ago, David said:

Forest had one for £1.8m from HMRC, seems pretty trivial to what we owe doesn't it?

https://www.accountancydaily.co/nottingham-forest-boot-winding-order-touch

Was in the Nottingham Post also, yet the article has since been removed.

Bury had a winding up order from HMRC over a £50k tax bill. The winding up order really says nothing about the size of the debt at the time.

[The Baron]

5 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

yes it's a shameful aspect of our recent history. I think MM just went from potential sale to potential sale thinking: the new owners will clear the arrears. Probably encouraged by his erstwhile mate, Samuelson. And the hole just got bigger and bigger, as the sale process was bungled and re-bungled   

Then he woke up one morning and thought: well, the fans are against me, Gibbo has me over a barrel and he has the EFL running scared. So far it's cost me 200 big ones. You know what, I'm just not putting any more in.  

As for Samuelson, thoroughly unpleasant individual. 

[Ghost of Clough]

5 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

yes it's a shameful aspect of our recent history. I think MM just went from potential sale to potential sale thinking: the new owners will clear the arrears. Probably encouraged by his erstwhile mate, Samuelson. And the hole just got bigger and bigger, as the sale process was bungled and re-bungled   

Then he woke up one morning and thought: well, the fans are against me, Gibbo has me over a barrel and he has the EFL running scared. So far it's cost me 200 big ones. You know what, I'm just not putting any more in.  

More or less correct, but we would have been days away from being wound up by HMRC again if Mel didn't put us in administration first.

[G STAR RAM]

2 minutes ago, TooFarInToTurnRed said:

Is not a significant part of the HMRC bill not for Capital Gains on the sale of PP? The “sale” was made during 2018/19 tax year so would need to have been reported by the end of December 2019 and therefore explain why significant sum was owing in January 2020.

 

With the level of taxable losses we have accumulated over the years I would be very surprised to see us ever paying tax!

 

[kevinhectoring]

29 minutes ago, The Baron said:

You're assuming that the accounting policy, described as 'at best confusing, at worst seriously misleading' was picked up by the inspection. 

a brief explanation

the policy is one thing thing, the notes to the accounts are another

it was the notes to the accounts that were described as 'at best confusing ... ' 

Before the IDC we copped it for the notes.  The policy was found to be within frs 102