The coronabrexit thread. I mean, coronavirus thread

[Crewton]

2 minutes ago, maxjam said:

This has been an accepted fact for a long time now.  You only have to look at the sheer numbers of people that have been vaccinated yet still caught covid (often more than once) this year - including people such as Dr. Fauci and Joe Biden (plenty of memes around on youtube etc showing them telling you you're not gonna catch covid if you get the jabs ?) 

Throughout this thread I have often posted the official UK Govt Surveillance Data that shows the numbers of vaccinated people infected/dying from covid is actually higher than the percentage of the population they make up - although thats not surprising tbh as the average age of death from covid is still over 80 and they are far more likely to be vaccinated than say the under 40s.

The latest data is here, I cba to look through it again;

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1096327/Vaccine_surveillance_report_week_31_2022.pdf

As for reputable sources, in the US both the Dr. Fauci and CDC Director Dr. Walensky have now stated that vaccines don't prevent transmission.  I also posted a clip from Boris Johnson around Christmas in this thread stating that the vaccines don't prevent transmission.  Here is an old clip re. the Delta variant.  The vaccines are even less effective re. Omicron.

You haven't provided any evidence for your claim that it's an accepted "fact" that the vaccines don't stop you from catching Covid, simply because it isn't an accepted fact, is it? 

The vaccines aren't a panacea -  they will, for a period of time that varies between individuals, prevent people from catching Covid and, when their effectiveness in that respect wanes, they will reduce both the symptoms and side effects of an infection. No vaccine will prevent the spread of infection from an infected person to a non-infected person who is unvaccinated or whose vaccine is wearing off, that's a fact. 

As knowledge and research into the various strains of the virus progresses, it's inevitable that PH advice will change to reflect that knowledge. Targeted vaccination rather than wholesale vaccination does appear to be the future, but this has only become possible because the vaccination programme to date has been so successful. 

[Archied]

26 minutes ago, Crewton said:

You haven't provided any evidence for your claim that it's an accepted "fact" that the vaccines don't stop you from catching Covid, simply because it isn't an accepted fact, is it? 

The vaccines aren't a panacea -  they will, for a period of time that varies between individuals, prevent people from catching Covid and, when their effectiveness in that respect wanes, they will reduce both the symptoms and side effects of an infection. No vaccine will prevent the spread of infection from an infected person to a non-infected person who is unvaccinated or whose vaccine is wearing off, that's a fact. 

As knowledge and research into the various strains of the virus progresses, it's inevitable that PH advice will change to reflect that knowledge. Targeted vaccination rather than wholesale vaccination does appear to be the future, but this has only become possible because the vaccination programme to date has been so successful. 

Acceptnicks just keep accepting in the face of evidence

[maxjam]

32 minutes ago, Crewton said:

You haven't provided any evidence for your claim that it's an accepted "fact" that the vaccines don't stop you from catching Covid, simply because it isn't an accepted fact, is it? 

Apart from the words out of the mouth of the CDC Director in one of the tweets I included.   But lets hear from Dr. Birx as well...

32 minutes ago, Crewton said:

The vaccines aren't a panacea -  they will, for a period of time that varies between individuals, prevent people from catching Covid and, when their effectiveness in that respect wanes, they will reduce both the symptoms and side effects of an infection. No vaccine will prevent the spread of infection from an infected person to a non-infected person who is unvaccinated or whose vaccine is wearing off, that's a fact. 

So we're agreed the vaccines don't prevent transmission then?

I have never said the vaccines don't help prevent against hospitalizations and death and I am happy to agree that they do offer some albeit temporary help re. transmissions *but* it is short-lived and declines quickly.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1096327/Vaccine_surveillance_report_week_31_2022.pdf

The above shows data for BA.1 and BA.2 (BA.5 is now the dominant strain in the UK).  Following a booster you are approx 50% protected from infection, this drops to 0% after 6 months. 

There is 'insufficient data' regarding transmission but the report states that 'Generally estimates are similar to or slightly lower than vaccine effectiveness estimates against symptomatic disease and there is evidence of significant waning in protection against infection over time'.

It also states that 'Estimates for vaccine effectiveness against infection with the Omicron variant are not yet available.'  Given the sheer amount of infection this year I would guess that the vaccines are becoming increasingly less effective, hence the omicron specific ones being lined up for the Autumn. 

As most under 50s have had their jabs in excess of 6 months ago and won't be offered another any protection they did offer re. transmission has long since waned.

[PistoldPete]

2 hours ago, maxjam said:

Apart from the words out of the mouth of the CDC Director in one of the tweets I included.   But lets hear from Dr. Birx as well...

So we're agreed the vaccines don't prevent transmission then?

I have never said the vaccines don't help prevent against hospitalizations and death and I am happy to agree that they do offer some albeit temporary help re. transmissions *but* it is short-lived and declines quickly.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1096327/Vaccine_surveillance_report_week_31_2022.pdf

The above shows data for BA.1 and BA.2 (BA.5 is now the dominant strain in the UK).  Following a booster you are approx 50% protected from infection, this drops to 0% after 6 months. 

There is 'insufficient data' regarding transmission but the report states that 'Generally estimates are similar to or slightly lower than vaccine effectiveness estimates against symptomatic disease and there is evidence of significant waning in protection against infection over time'.

It also states that 'Estimates for vaccine effectiveness against infection with the Omicron variant are not yet available.'  Given the sheer amount of infection this year I would guess that the vaccines are becoming increasingly less effective, hence the omicron specific ones being lined up for the Autumn. 

As most under 50s have had their jabs in excess of 6 months ago and won't be offered another any protection they did offer re. transmission has long since waned.

I have never heard anyone say that vaccination makes it impossible for you to catch the virus, or to pass it on to someone else. . 

It reduces the risk of either of those things happening. Which is a good thing.

 

 

[Stive Pesley]

This is all semantics though. Because you're pretty much contradicting yourself here

2 hours ago, maxjam said:

I am happy to agree that they do offer some albeit temporary help re. transmissions *but* it is short-lived and declines quickly

It sounds like you are agreeing that the vaccines do prevent transmission in some cases (ie in the early weeks/months of vaccination)

In which case the pertinent words are in bold. What you actually mean is that it doesn't prevent transmission in the longer term.

Almost everyone I know has been vaccinated and still caught the virus eventually, so I don't know why you want to keep heralding this fact as some sort of gotcha when we most of us know it from first-hand experience

The vaccine programme clearly headed off a much more catastrophic trajectory for the virus.

 

[maxjam]

17 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

I have never heard anyone say that vaccination makes it impossible for you to catch the virus, or to pass it on to someone else. . 

It reduces the risk of either of those things happening. Which is a good thing.

Apart from all of the World Leaders in the meme video I posted earlier...

[maxjam]

23 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

This is all semantics though. Because you're pretty much contradicting yourself here

It sounds like you are agreeing that the vaccines do prevent transmission in some cases (ie in the early weeks/months of vaccination)

In which case the pertinent words are in bold. What you actually mean is that it doesn't prevent transmission in the longer term.

Almost everyone I know has been vaccinated and still caught the virus eventually, so I don't know why you want to keep heralding this fact as some sort of gotcha when we most of us know it from first-hand experience

The vaccine programme clearly headed off a much more catastrophic trajectory for the virus.

I didn't state it as a 'gotcha' moment, @Crewton asked me to provide a reputable source for the claim I'd made in an earlier post about the new CDC guidelines.  The fact that the vaccines don't prevent transmission has been common knowledge for a year or more, I thought pretty much everyone knew that now? 

Personally, I was only ever obsessed about it with regard to the vaccine passports that were mentioned at the time - more concerned with Govt overreach than pandemic response.

IMHO its splitting hairs to debate whether they prevent transmission by a percentage for an amount of time.  They either do or they don't - its like having unprotected sex, you'll probably be fine but do you want to risk an embarrassing trip to the Doctors?!?  And the more people you mix with the higher your risk of catching something.

The vaccines don't prevent transmission at the point of vaccination by 100%, and it falls to 0% after a few months.  If you were the sort of person that bought into the narrative and cut the unvaccinated out of your life or only went on cruises that were for the vaccinated for example, you were at virtually the same risk of catching covid as everyone else.  

https://www.9news.com.au/national/covid-19-cruise-ship-australia-pacific-explorer-cases/328edf16-da0f-4550-b0d0-a89b017b1f32

'More than 100 people on board another cruise ship in Australian waters have tested positive for COVID-19.'

'COVID-19 protocols, such as having to be vaccinated and declare testing negative before boarding, are in place.'

You have the vaccine to protect yourself, anything else is a transitory bonus.  Which brings me back to the point of my claim to begin with - the new CDC guidelines.  Covid is basically endemic now, you no longer have to quarantine if infected, the unvaccinated have the same guidance as the vaccinated and mass screening is no longer recommended.  It was nice to see the US finally following our lead.  Hopefully places like Canada, New Zealand and Australia etc will follow suit given the overwhelming evidence that covid spreads through vaccinated populations as easily as it does the unvaccinated. 

[Crewton]

27 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Apart from all of the World Leaders in the meme video I posted earlier...

Oh come off it. "Meme videos" take things out of context often for pernicious reasons, and the Covid debate his crawling with them. Of course world leaders wanting to encourage a high uptake were bound to say that it would prevent people from catching Covid, because to a high degree it did in the initial phases. It was also inevitable, and predicted, that variants would change that scenario, and effectiveness of the first vaccines would wane, and that work would have to continue to develop new vaccines or boosters that would help protect the most vulnerable from the most troublesome variants - indeed, the Govt has just approved a new Moderna vaccine that is effective against Omicron.

The goal all along has been two-fold : save/extend the lives of the most vulnerable and prevent/slow-down the spread and development of new variants to mitigate the additional pressure on the NHS. The success or otherwise of those objectives is yet to be fully determined and will be weighted by the impact and timing of lock-downs and a return to normality. 

[Crewton]

On 12/08/2022 at 10:58, maxjam said:

although given the now accepted fact that vaccines don't stop you from catching/transmitting covid,

Just for clarity - this is what you stated and was what I asked for evidence of. I may have misunderstood the context - were you claiming that the vaccines had no preventative benefit, or simply that at this point in time they were no longer effective at preventing infection?

Obviously, if the vaccine has prevented infection, it has also therefore prevented transmission.

[maxjam]

5 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Oh come off it. "Meme videos" take things out of context often for pernicious reasons, and the Covid debate his crawling with them. Of course world leaders wanting to encourage a high uptake were bound to say that it would prevent people from catching Covid, because to a high degree it did in the initial phases. It was also inevitable, and predicted, that variants would change that scenario, and effectiveness of the first vaccines would wane, and that work would have to continue to develop new vaccines or boosters that would help protect the most vulnerable from the most troublesome variants - indeed, the Govt has just approved a new Moderna vaccine that is effective against Omicron.

The goal all along has been two-fold : save/extend the lives of the most vulnerable and prevent/slow-down the spread and development of new variants to mitigate the additional pressure on the NHS. The success or otherwise of those objectives is yet to be fully determined and will be weighted by the impact and timing of lock-downs and a return to normality. 

I'd agree that world leaders pushed the 'safe and effective' narrative to increase vaccine uptake, but they did so long after it became apparent that they didn't stop infection/transmission.

To say the meme video I posted was taken out of context is a little unforgiving imo.  Literally everyone was saying how good the vaccines were when they first came out, despite evidence to the contrary.

I have no issue with the claim that the vaccines extend life/prevent hospitalization and death but the fact that they were stated to prevent transmission and were being used to push vaccine passports and prevent the unvaccinated from partaking in various aspects of life far beyond the point that that was still provable was something that I objected to at the time.  

TBH I've got no intention of going over it again.

[Crewton]

2 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I'd agree that world leaders pushed the 'safe and effective' narrative to increase vaccine uptake, but they did so long after it became apparent that they didn't stop infection/transmission.

To say the meme video I posted was taken out of context is a little unforgiving imo.  Literally everyone was saying how good the vaccines were when they first came out, despite evidence to the contrary.

I have no issue with the claim that the vaccines extend life/prevent hospitalization and death but the fact that they were stated to prevent transmission and were being used to push vaccine passports and prevent the unvaccinated from partaking in various aspects of life far beyond the point that that was still provable was something that I objected to at the time.  

TBH I've got no intention of going over it again.

 

No, I can see you've no intention of changing your views, nor me mine, so I'll leave it there. 

 

[Stive Pesley]

27 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I have no issue with the claim that the vaccines extend life/prevent hospitalization and death but the fact that they were stated to prevent transmission and were being used to push vaccine passports and prevent the unvaccinated from partaking in various aspects of life far beyond the point that that was still provable was something that I objected to at the time.  

I hear what you're saying, but the irony is that if the vaccines hadn't been so aggressively marketed to the public as necessary then we wouldn't be in the place we're in now with the virus endemic and considerably weakened. Does the means justify the ends?

 

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

Apart from all of the World Leaders in the meme video I posted earlier...

None of them said it was impossible to catch the virus. Using "Stop" and "prevent" and "protect" can be used carelessly in soundbites but the vaccine advice has been clear in the UK.    

[Anon]

13 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

I hear what you're saying, but the irony is that if the vaccines hadn't been so aggressively marketed to the public as necessary then we wouldn't be in the place we're in now with the virus endemic and considerably weakened. Does the means justify the ends?

 

Yes we would. Rapid replication of viruses causes mutation as it moves through a large population. You don't need mRNA injections to achieve that result.

[maxjam]

49 minutes ago, Crewton said:

 

No, I can see you've no intention of changing your views, nor me mine, so I'll leave it there. 

 

Not sure what views you want me to change tbh.  

Vaccines prevent hospitalization and death.

Vaccines don't prevent transmission.

Neither of those two statements are inaccurate - summed up nicely in the Fauci video linked below

https://www.foxnews.com/media/fauci-admits-covid-19-vaccines-protect-overly-well-infection

or a similar article from The Guardian if you're averse to Fox News!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/covid-vaccinated-likely-unjabbed-infect-cohabiters-study-suggests

[maxjam]

32 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

I hear what you're saying, but the irony is that if the vaccines hadn't been so aggressively marketed to the public as necessary then we wouldn't be in the place we're in now with the virus endemic and considerably weakened. Does the means justify the ends?

Vaccines haven't weakened covid.  The CDC states that vaccines don't effect viruses

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/facts.html

FACT: COVID-19 vaccines do not create or cause variants of the virus that causes COVID-19. Instead, COVID-19 vaccines can help prevent new variants from emerging.

Some highly qualified people have suggested that vaccines can indeed drive mutations however, but they are generally considered 'alternative' by the mainstream as they don't follow the narrative. 

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/are-vaccines-driving-the-emergence-of-escape-mutant-variants-of-covid-19/

 

[maxjam]

37 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

None of them said it was impossible to catch the virus. Using "Stop" and "prevent" and "protect" can be used carelessly in soundbites but the vaccine advice has been clear in the UK.    

I just watched the first 13s again and both Biden and Fauci said that if you get the vaccines you are not going to get covid/infected.  Granted, 'not' is not 'impossible' but I think the message is clear.  And the same message was repeated around the world.

To be fair I don't recall it being mentioned in the UK though, I think the most optimistic our officials got was stating vaccines were 95% effective.  As the vaccination programmes got underway however and we started gathering real world data, the efficacy of against transmissibility, hospitalization and death started dropping, hence the numbers getting infected post vaccination and booster campaigns.

[PistoldPete]

4 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Vaccines haven't weakened covid.  The CDC states that vaccines don't effect viruses

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/facts.html

FACT: COVID-19 vaccines do not create or cause variants of the virus that causes COVID-19. Instead, COVID-19 vaccines can help prevent new variants from emerging.

Some highly qualified people have suggested that vaccines can indeed drive mutations however, but they are generally considered 'alternative' by the mainstream as they don't follow the narrative. 

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/are-vaccines-driving-the-emergence-of-escape-mutant-variants-of-covid-19/

 

The narrative being that life expectancy for a man in 1900 was 48 years... and that the biggest single reason why it has increased by 30 years since then is due to vaccination.   

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

Not sure what views you want me to change tbh.  

Vaccines prevent hospitalization and death.

Vaccines don't prevent transmission.

Neither of those two statements are inaccurate - summed up nicely in the Fauci video linked below

https://www.foxnews.com/media/fauci-admits-covid-19-vaccines-protect-overly-well-infection

or a similar article from The Guardian if you're averse to Fox News!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/covid-vaccinated-likely-unjabbed-infect-cohabiters-study-suggests

Well, it's an arguable point. If vaccines do protect individuals from becoming infected (and I would contend that that was certainly the case when the vaccines based on the Wuhan virus were first distributed) then they also indirectly prevent transmission because they reduced the 'R' number (until the Government took the brakes off just as the Delta Variant was getting established here).

I didn't bother with the Fox News report, but your second link is an article based on a study reported in the Lancet, from which I will quote the following findings and conclusions:

Quote

Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance.

and

Quote

In our cohort of densely sampled household contacts exposed to the delta variant, SAR was 38% in unvaccinated contacts and 25% in fully vaccinated contacts. This finding is consistent with the known protective effect of COVID-19 vaccination against infection.

and

Quote

our findings suggest that vaccination alone is not sufficient to prevent all transmission of the delta variant in the household setting, where exposure is close and prolonged. Increasing population immunity via booster programmes and vaccination of teenagers will help to increase the currently limited effect of vaccination on transmission.

I'm happy to let the science do the talking. I have emphasised the point about close, prolonged exposure, because it emphasises what is a known fact : that viral load is fundamental to the successful transmission of all of the Covid variants.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Crewton

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

I hear what you're saying, but the irony is that if the vaccines hadn't been so aggressively marketed to the public as necessary then we wouldn't be in the place we're in now with the virus endemic and considerably weakened. Does the means justify the ends?

 

So fake news / misinformation is ok as long as it’s on the right side ,,, tell that to some people who have died and been harmed from the vaccine and yes there are some as official death certificate s and paltry offers of compensation from the government prove ,

people Have the right to true information to make choices that can be life or death for them , they’re loved ones , they’re children