Tribunal Update

[Van der MoodHoover]

40 minutes ago, chadlad said:

...and still don’t seem to be accountable to anyone ?

They're accountable under the law and so, as its parliament that sets our laws,  that's the theoretical accountability. 

Which is where it, of course, gets political so we'd best leave it there so as not to encourage the mods to be polishing their ban hammers.....

[GenBr]

8 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Wasnt this year the first time they have finished in the top 6?

They have been well run but a need to sell their best players to remain sustainable is probably what has stopped them from getting promoted.

Bought themselves a new stadium though, so as a long term plan its definitely working.

Its the second time in their history they've been in the Championship playoffs, but despite the fact that we hold the record for most playoff appearances ultimately we've both accomplished the same thing in the past 5 years. 

Lets also not forget the owner of Brentford also owns a club in Denmark which he has used to buy a couple of cheaper players ala Watford. 

They are doing a better job than Bournemouth of actually doing something with their money though, so they do have better long term plans.

[Archied]

13 minutes ago, GenBr said:

Its the second time in their history they've been in the Championship playoffs, but despite the fact that we hold the record for most playoff appearances ultimately we've both accomplished the same thing in the past 5 years. 

Lets also not forget the owner of Brentford also owns a club in Denmark which he has used to buy a couple of cheaper players ala Watford. 

They are doing a better job than Bournemouth of actually doing something with their money though, so they do have better long term plans.

They have done away with academy and trying a different route , to be fair only time will tell if they’re long term plan turns out to be better

[SECornerRAM]

8 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Wasnt this year the first time they have finished in the top 6?

They have been well run but a need to sell their best players to remain sustainable is probably what has stopped them from getting promoted.

Bought themselves a new stadium though, so as a long term plan its definitely working.

Finished top six a few years back and lost to Boro in the semis - 14/15 season maybe? 

long term plan on Brentford we will see - they are very well run without a doubt but what is ultimate success for Brentford? you'd argue for a club their size they're punching being a consistent championship team 

A lot of their fans really aren't happy about their new stadium - Especially to be a ground share with London Irish. 

The stadium has cost them very little by comparison - sold griffin park for development / built flats and office blocks around the new stadium which have sold for multi-millions (the most annoying part of their new stadium is it being next to the Express Tavern which is a somewhat unknown gem - will now ultimately be a home fans pub) 

 

 

[CornwallRam]

One thing we now definitely know; if the EFL didn't want the penalty applying to last season because we wouldn't have been relegated, the penalty is less than 17 points.

[RamNut]

5 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

One thing we now definitely know; if the EFL didn't want the penalty applying to last season because we wouldn't have been relegated, the penalty is less than 17 points.

that was Sheffield Wednesday, not us?

[Spanish]

3 minutes ago, RamNut said:

that was Sheffield Wednesday, not us?

I think the theory could be if we were to be penalised by 17 points then they would have tried to get both of us relegated last season.  Because the penalty isn't that they made a crucial error in treating the 2 differently for no apparent reason other than malice.  Lots of reasons why the EFL come out of this badly but this is one of the most fundamental.  Do the clubs vote on the appointment of the executive?

[Angry Ram]

10 minutes ago, Burtonram2066 said:

Finished top six a few years back and lost to Boro in the semis - 14/15 season maybe? 

long term plan on Brentford we will see - they are very well run without a doubt but what is ultimate success for Brentford? you'd argue for a club their size they're punching being a consistent championship team 

A lot of their fans really aren't happy about their new stadium - Especially to be a ground share with London Irish. 

The stadium has cost them very little by comparison - sold griffin park for development / built flats and office blocks around the new stadium which have sold for multi-millions (the most annoying part of their new stadium is it being next to the Express Tavern which is a somewhat unknown gem - will now ultimately be a home fans pub) 

 

 

 Benham originally stated than success for Brentford was to be a top half championship team. He has done that and now I guess the bar will move upwards.

They are a great little club to be fair, Yes the new ground has caused upset in the fan base, the seats are horrible but us fans always live in the past and from the outside it looks nice and really near to their spiritual home.

Agree with the Express being a gem but most will still stay in normal haunts. 
Benham has a plan, I thought he would fail but you have to admit, it seems to work, Sell a gem, find a gem, then repeat.

They will have no problems if the vultures come and cull last seasons class. 
No youth structure, he binned that early doors. The problem they had was that their catchment area has multiple ‘bigger’’ Clubs and talking kids into going there was always difficult.. What then tended to happen was they had gems that would get them through to U18 and they would never get the chance. The bigger clubs in the area had just culled and they would pick up cast offs. Benham gave the youth structure a chance and brought in top coaches from all over London, especially Arsenal, even their top youth talent spotter. It still never really worked for them though (Some successes in The Milk Cup though), so he pulled the plug, as breakthrough into the first team was hard. He just cut the cost out and went via his moneyball route.

Interesting to see the comparison between us and them though. 

I will still miss going to Griffin Park, been going there for 55 years on and off.

[RamNut]

4 minutes ago, Spanish said:

I think the theory could be if we were to be penalised by 17 points then....

But our penalty hadn’t been determined at the time of the sheff wed deliberation and adjudication, when the comments about which year the SW penalty should apply, were discussed?

[Spanish]

1 minute ago, RamNut said:

But our penalty hadn’t been determined at the time of the sheff wed deliberation and adjudication, when the comments about which year the SW penalty should apply, were discussed?

just explaining what the theory could be.   When did they decide the SW penalty it must have been before they decided to pitch into last season I guess.  I just don't know the timing 

[RandomAccessMemory]

2 minutes ago, RamNut said:

But our penalty hadn’t been determined at the time of the sheff wed deliberation and adjudication, when the comments about which year the SW penalty should apply, were discussed?

The EFL had already recommended our punishment to the IDC, based on how far they say we have gone over the £39m limit, they recommended that it be applied next season as it wouldn't have had a material effect on last season.

Paragraph 26 of the decision on sanction document for SW says

Quote

it has become clear from an interchange between the Chair of the Commission in the Derby County case and Leading Counsel for the EFL (Mr Mark Phillips QC) that, if the charge against Derby County is established, the EFL will not be inviting the Disciplinary Commission to impose any points deduction in the present, extended season. This, according to Mr Phillips, is on the basis that "looking at the position of Derby in the League at the moment, anything that this Commission does is unlikely to affect the composition of the Championship next year." (It is, incidentally, to be noted that any points deduction that might be imposed on Derby County if the charge is established would also not have had any impact on that club in terms of relegation if it had been imposed in the 2018-2019 season.)

 

[RamNut]

13 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

The EFL had already recommended our punishment to the IDC, based on how far they say we have gone over the £39m limit, they recommended that it be applied next season as it wouldn't have had a material effect on last season.

Paragraph 26 of the decision on sanction document for SW says

Ok....but I don’t think there should be any reference to sanctions which may or may not be applied to Derby county, in the adjudication for Sheffield Wednesday. Particularly as our case was not yet heard. 
this is one of the aspects of the judgement where the IDC seem to get a bit ahead of themselves.

[RandomAccessMemory]

3 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

It looks clumsy, but as I read it....in Scenario 2, the "Newco" was not new at all, but already existed for some already proved non-football reason. The example being used seems to be for catering.

Scenario 3 seems to suggest that IF you set up a company ONLY for the purpose of owning the stadium, then the EFL will deem that new entity to be within the "football club group" regardless of the actual corporate structure. 

If that's what they intended then I don't think they could have found a worse way of describing it, could they? Why would they use the word 'Newco' in Scenario 2? It beggars belief.

2 hours ago, Will Hughes Hair said:

I think you're right and it is a mistake, otherwise the advice from the EFL's Financial Controller would be self-contradicting.

I do think it's more likely to be a mistake, I've now checked the Rule 1.1.9 of P&S Rules that Scenarios 1, 2 and 3 refer to

Quote

1.1.9 Group for the purposes of these Rules, has the meaning set out in Section 474(1) of the 2006 Act save that it shall also include any other entity that carries on any material aspect of the football operations of the Club.

I'm almost certain now that it should read captured within Scenario 2 and not 1. That would be the logical conclusion, as if the "new corporate entity" doesn't fall foul of Rule 1.1.9, then there is no reason why it should be classed as "a Company within the Football Club Group" and not as "a Company outside of the Football Group but still owned by the Club's owner".

[Woodley Ram]

42 minutes ago, RamNut said:

that was Sheffield Wednesday, not us?

it was us, that is what it said, but course it was on the premise that we were found guilty not that we had been 

[Woodley Ram]

3 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Ok....but I don’t think there should be any reference to sanctions which may or may not be applied to Derby county, in the adjudication for Sheffield Wednesday. Particularly as our case was not yet heard. 
this is one of the aspects of the judgement where the IDC seem to get a bit ahead of themselves.

spot on, if this was a criminal case it would be kicked out for doing that, it also gives DCFC the right to question the independence of the hearing, although I thought SWFC had a reasonable hearing even if it was not what they wanted. We have premise in the UK innocent until proven guilty its enshrined in our laws the EFL need to remember that. 

I think the EFL is a shambles, they have the right to challenge clubs and bring them to account but they need to do this in a timely manner and in a professional way, they have failed on both accounts........right time to get on with some work 

[RandomAccessMemory]

1 minute ago, RamNut said:

Ok....but I don’t think there should be any reference to sanctions which may or may not be applied to Derby county, in the adjudication for Sheffield Wednesday. Particularly as our case was not yet heard. 
this is one of the aspects of the judgement where the IDC seem to get a bit ahead of themselves.

I know what you mean, but I think it reads that it was mentioned because we shared that information with them due to the inconsistencies in the recommendations of when any punishment should be applied.

Any potential punishments that they talk about for us would be from the sliding scale that was agreed in September 2018 (and referred to in both the Birmingham and SW sanction decisions) based on exactly how much they are saying we have gone over the limit.

The amount of points recommended would be different depending on whether we are found guilty of just amortisation, just the stadium, or both as they would produce different figures for the excess amount.

[Spanish]

31 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

I know what you mean, but I think it reads that it was mentioned because we shared that information with them due to the inconsistencies in the recommendations of when any punishment should be applied.

Any potential punishments that they talk about for us would be from the sliding scale that was agreed in September 2018 (and referred to in both the Birmingham and SW sanction decisions) based on exactly how much they are saying we have gone over the limit.

The amount of points recommended would be different depending on whether we are found guilty of just amortisation, just the stadium, or both as they would produce different figures for the excess amount.

exactly, plus and minus some points based on our behavior

[Mafiabob]

1 hour ago, Angry Ram said:

 Benham originally stated than success for Brentford was to be a top half championship team. He has done that and now I guess the bar will move upwards.

They are a great little club to be fair, Yes the new ground has caused upset in the fan base, the seats are horrible but us fans always live in the past and from the outside it looks nice and really near to their spiritual home.

Agree with the Express being a gem but most will still stay in normal haunts. 
Benham has a plan, I thought he would fail but you have to admit, it seems to work, Sell a gem, find a gem, then repeat.

They will have no problems if the vultures come and cull last seasons class. 
No youth structure, he binned that early doors. The problem they had was that their catchment area has multiple ‘bigger’’ Clubs and talking kids into going there was always difficult.. What then tended to happen was they had gems that would get them through to U18 and they would never get the chance. The bigger clubs in the area had just culled and they would pick up cast offs. Benham gave the youth structure a chance and brought in top coaches from all over London, especially Arsenal, even their top youth talent spotter. It still never really worked for them though (Some successes in The Milk Cup though), so he pulled the plug, as breakthrough into the first team was hard. He just cut the cost out and went via his moneyball route.

Interesting to see the comparison between us and them though. 

I will still miss going to Griffin Park, been going there for 55 years on and off.

You’re never that old Angry!

[Day]

10 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

You’re never that old Angry!

[DarkFruitsRam7]

1 hour ago, Angry Ram said:

 Benham originally stated than success for Brentford was to be a top half championship team. He has done that and now I guess the bar will move upwards.

They are a great little club to be fair, Yes the new ground has caused upset in the fan base, the seats are horrible but us fans always live in the past and from the outside it looks nice and really near to their spiritual home.

Agree with the Express being a gem but most will still stay in normal haunts. 
Benham has a plan, I thought he would fail but you have to admit, it seems to work, Sell a gem, find a gem, then repeat.

They will have no problems if the vultures come and cull last seasons class. 
No youth structure, he binned that early doors. The problem they had was that their catchment area has multiple ‘bigger’’ Clubs and talking kids into going there was always difficult.. What then tended to happen was they had gems that would get them through to U18 and they would never get the chance. The bigger clubs in the area had just culled and they would pick up cast offs. Benham gave the youth structure a chance and brought in top coaches from all over London, especially Arsenal, even their top youth talent spotter. It still never really worked for them though (Some successes in The Milk Cup though), so he pulled the plug, as breakthrough into the first team was hard. He just cut the cost out and went via his moneyball route.

Interesting to see the comparison between us and them though. 

I will still miss going to Griffin Park, been going there for 55 years on and off.

We actually agree on something?