The Politics Thread 2020

[Stive Pesley]

34 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

No question it's a disgusting thing to do but why did the BBC choose to sensationalise it by repeatedly reporting it as "urinating on" the memorial, with a photo clearly demonstrating that it wasn't. A pathetic exaggeration

Whilst you're right that the circulated photo doesnt show this, I'd like to have seen the reaction if I'd quibbled about something as minor as the accuracy of a preposition in a news report on the antics of an arrested rioter, or tried to argue that a snapshot photo in time was proof that none of his waz actually went "on" the memorial ?

eg

"why did the BBC choose to sensationalise it by repeatedly reporting it as "throwing an egg" at Corbyn when the footage clearly demonstrating that it was actually a closed fist to the head with an egg inside it"

 

 

 

[ariotofmyown]

16 hours ago, Needlesh said:

What more can we do to advance racial equality? What practical step, right now, would you advocate?

This is what MP David Lammy said today:

"I made 35 specific recommendations in the Lammy review. Implement them. There are 110 recommendations in the Angiolini review into deaths into police custody. Implement them. There are 30 recommendations in the Home Office review into the Windrush scandal. Implement them. Twenty six into Baroness McGregor’s review into workplace discrimination. Implement them. That’s what Boris has to do. And the Black Lives protests can stop and we can get on with dealing with the coronavirus."

I just browsed over the Lammy report recommendations and they mainly seem to cover data collection of ethnicity and gender with the justice system, and more diversity within prison service, parole board etc. Perhaps there is more controversy in the detail, but seems moderate.

[Eddie]

The moral outrage of some offended white people is palpable.

 

[Jourdan]

1 hour ago, djfred84 said:

Maybe the reason for the guilt is for the last 12 years we've all been complicit in voting in a succession governments that have actually taken race relations backwards a few years, also how do you know the negative aspects of the blm community are bought the fore by design. People like akala should be promoted more but are not and everything david lammy says is just brushed aside.

I voted Labour in every previous election. My whole family did too, except for my dad who refuses to vote.

Hardly anyone has been left unscathed by the Conservative government, so it’s not really a black issue but a country wide issue. We’re all kicking ourselves, aren’t we?

But realistically people still vote for them because Labour’s alternative hasn’t been credible or compelling enough to sway historical Conservative voters.

OK, so it’s the media’s fault for portraying BLM in a negative light? No accountability for their actions then both here and in the US?

Surely if the media were so hellbent on painting black people in a bad light, Marcus Rashford wouldn’t be in the news for doing charity work and campaigning for meals for underprivileged kids.

Of course, there are strong black voices out there. No-one said there aren’t. You mentioned Akala - he has been on talk shows and even held his own with Piers Morgan. Perhaps he should have been chosen to represent BLM as a spokesperson?

Please watch that interview with Gary McFarlane and tell me how someone is supposed to come away in support of BLM.

[Comrade 86]

2 hours ago, i-Ram said:

It seems to me that the viewpoints of @Needlesh and @Jourdan are not too dissimilar. The language is a little different, but that can be expected because of inequalities. One is an English teacher.

You have opted not to respond to Jourdan’s posts to date, neither @Eddie. I genuinely would also like to learn your take on his comments.

As for the last line of the quote above, I don’t think Needlesh was saying he personally couldn’t conceive of a sinlgle measure to advance racial equality. He was calling out Eddie as a soundbite generator and asking him “What more can we do to advance racial equality? What practical step, right now, would you advocate?”  Again I would welcome your, and Eddie’s, considered thoughts on that. No soundbites Eddie remember.

I've not addressed Jourdan's comments because I don't find them remotely in keeping with those I have responded to, least not the ones I've read. I don't agree with some of what he says but I respect the fact that he has, in my opinion, overcome the barriers that stump so many, as I should point out, have I. Unfortunately, many have not and they are therefore the focus, not the likes of Jourdan and I.

Excuse the brief digression but I do often wonder if some folk, prior to posting some of the stuff I've read on here, ever concern themselves with how many BAME folk actually post on this site. I seem to recall that there are over 5,000 registered DCFC Fans users, but for the sake of this debate let's assume only half of that number, 2,500. If BAME people account for 14% of the populous then that means there are likely up to 350 BAME individuals using this site and yet only two have overtly posted on this thread. Considering why that might be is food for thought.

As for the practical steps, that's very simple. The government needs to stop playing lip service and fully implement the changes they brought about. Deed not words, put simply. For example, one of the major grievances of the BLM movement is BAME people's treatment at the hands of the police. After the independent report commissioned by an under pressure by Theresa May, a thorough investigation revealed a number of serious issues which I addressed at length in a post last week. The subsequent report also made numerous recommendations. I'd like to see them properly implemented so that we do not see rates of death for black people under restraint running at double that of white folk and rising rather than falling. That single stat alone is scandalous enough, though I note nobody seemed to share that opinion when I posted it. Instead folk scurried off to try and find stats that disproved the point though I note they've not returned to post their findings since. Just that single step would be a massive leap forward and given the government commissioned report, it's fair to say that they are not  unaware of this fact. Ask yourself then, why haven't they?

For me, relations with UK law enforcement are absolutely key to ending this unrest. Several more obvious steps along the same lines, would be and end to racial profiling and no more abuse of stop and search powers.

I don't believe and never have done, that ordinary British folk are racist. I actually believe that in some regards, they are fairer minded than any I've come across and I am well travelled. Yes, we have our knuckle-draggers, but then there are unsavoury elements everywhere, including among the UK's BAME communities. I'm not blind to these facts. Where I differ it seems, from the majority on this thread, is that I believe that institutional racism still exits in the UK, the police being the primary example. Too many on here assume that the BLM movement is concerned with the British public rather than British institutions. I can assure you that this is not the case. The trigger for these protests should really tell people all they need to know.

[Comrade 86]

7 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Of course, there are strong black voices out there. No-one said there aren’t. You mentioned Akala - he has been on talk shows and even held his own with Piers Morgan. Perhaps he should have been chosen to represent BLM as a spokesperson?

If you believe that he does not stand with BLM then may I suggest you visit his Twitter feed mate. I think perhaps you will be surprised.

[djfred84]

10 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I voted Labour in every previous election. My whole family did too, except for my dad who refuses to vote.

Hardly anyone has been left unscathed by the Conservative government, so it’s not really a black issue but a country wide issue. We’re all kicking ourselves, aren’t we?

But realistically people still vote for them because Labour’s alternative hasn’t been credible or compelling enough to sway historical Conservative voters.

OK, so it’s the media’s fault for portraying BLM in a negative light? No accountability for their actions then both here and in the US?

Surely if the media were so hellbent on painting black people in a bad light, Marcus Rashford wouldn’t be in the news for doing charity work and campaigning for meals for underprivileged kids.

Of course, there are strong black voices out there. No-one said there aren’t. You mentioned Akala - he has been on talk shows and even held his own with Piers Morgan. Perhaps he should have been chosen to represent BLM as a spokesperson?

Please watch that interview with Gary McFarlane and tell me how someone is supposed to come away in support of BLM.

The thing is akala gets accused of race baiting by not just far right but center right who think that racism is not an issue. Anyone who broaches the subject just gets shot down and people switch off pretty much everyone in this forum agrees more needs to be done but switch off because it's not what they want to here. The thing i don't get how can we expect to BAME people to be constructive and civilized in discussions when we only  allow ideas and criticism through that we want to hear.

[Stive Pesley]

10 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Where I differ it seems, from the majority on this thread, is that I believe that institutional racism still exits in the UK, the police being the primary example. Too many on here assume that the BLM movement is concerned with the British public rather than British institutions. I can assure you that this is not the case

It's easy to see the scale of what has to be overcome when so many people simply refuse to accept that institutional racism still exists in the UK

Institutions, by definition wield power, and wherever there is power (no matter the level or strength) - you will still see institutional racism.

The institutions however, do not need to defend themselves, but the public do it for them (by assuming the accusation is somehow levelled at them, not the institutions). The individual public generally hold no power (even at the ballot box, our FPTP renders most votes meaningless)

@Jourdan talks about the BAME community needing to address their own issues with crime, gangs, family units etc first, but you don't have to think too hard to draw this all back to the root cause being poverty and inequality - which has historically been stacked against them because of institutional racism. I don't see them making much headway whilst they are trapped in poverty by current societal structures

 

 

[Wolfie]

25 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Whilst you're right that the circulated photo doesnt show this, I'd like to have seen the reaction if I'd quibbled about something as minor as the accuracy of a preposition in a news report on the antics of an arrested rioter, or tried to argue that a snapshot photo in time was proof that none of his waz actually went "on" the memorial ?

eg

"why did the BBC choose to sensationalise it by repeatedly reporting it as "throwing an egg" at Corbyn when the footage clearly demonstrating that it was actually a closed fist to the head with an egg inside it"

 

 

 

Yes, it's very minor but that's the point. Why do it?. Why did they feel they had to big it up?. If they are doing it with something so minor, can they be trusted to report on the important stuff?.

Somebody at the Beeb thought it was an issue too, as their reporting has changed today.

 

[djfred84]

4 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

It's easy to see the scale of what has to be overcome when so many people simply refuse to accept that institutional racism still exists in the UK

Institutions, by definition wield power, and wherever there is power (no matter the level or strength) - you will still see institutional racism.

The institutions however, do not need to defend themselves, but the public do it for them (by assuming the accusation is somehow levelled at them, not the institutions). The individual public generally hold no power (even at the ballot box, our FPTP renders most votes meaningless)

@Jourdan talks about the BAME community needing to address their own issues with crime, gangs, family units etc first, but you don't have to think too hard to draw this all back to the root cause being poverty and inequality - which has historically been stacked against them because of institutional racism. I don't see them making much headway whilst they are trapped in poverty by current societal structures

 

 

Yeah I don't agree that crime and gangs are the cause to me they are a byproduct after all you don't see a rich Black or Asian person making money from gangs.

 

[Comrade 86]

For those of you unfamiliar with Akala...

 

[A Ram for All Seasons]

46 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Excuse the brief digression but I do often wonder if some folk, prior to posting some of the stuff I've read on here, ever concern themselves with how many BAME folk actually post on this site.

This site is colour-blind, black and white. I would hope that people on here support all our players, black and white. I would like to hope that as many BAME supporters as possible are contributing to the discussion.

[djfred84]

His oxford address on black history wowed me

how so much had been rewritten.

[i-Ram]

15 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

I've not addressed Jourdan's comments because I don't find them remotely in keeping with those I have responded to, least not the ones I've read. I don't agree with some of what he says but I respect the fact that he has, in my opinion, overcome the barriers that stump so many, as I should point out, have I. Unfortunately, many have not and they are therefore the focus, not the likes of Jourdan and I.

Excuse the brief digression but I do often wonder if some folk, prior to posting some of the stuff I've read on here, ever concern themselves with how many BAME folk actually post on this site. I seem to recall that there are over 5,000 registered DCFC Fans users, but for the sake of this debate let's assume only half of that number, 2,500. If BAME people account for 14% of the populous then that means there are likely up to 350 BAME individuals using this site and yet only two have overtly posted on this thread. Considering why that might be is food for thought.

As for the practical steps, that's very simple. The government needs to stop playing lip service and fully implement the changes they brought about. Deed not words, put simply. For example, one of the major grievances of the BLM movement is BAME people's treatment at the hands of the police. After the independent report commissioned by an under pressure by Theresa May, a thorough investigation revealed a number of serious issues which I addressed at length in a post last week. The subsequent report also made numerous recommendations. I'd like to see them properly implemented so that we do not see rates of death for black people under restraint running at double that of white folk and rising rather than falling. That single stat alone is scandalous enough, though I note nobody seemed to share that opinion when I posted it. Instead folk scurried off to try and find stats that disporved the point though I note they've not returned to post their findings since. Just that single step would be a massive leap forward and given the government commissioned report, it's fair to say that they are not  unaware of this fact. Ask yourself then, why haven't they?

For me, relations with UK law enforcement are absolutely key to ending this unrest. Several more obvious steps along the same lines, would be and end to racial profiling and no more abuse of stop and search powers.

I don't believe and never have done, that ordinary British folk are racist. I actually believe that in some regards, they are fairer minded than any I've come across and I am well travelled. Yes, we have our knuckle-draggers, but then there are unsavoury elements everywhere, including among the UK's BAME communities. I'm not blind to these facts. Where I differ it seems, from the majority on this thread, is that I believe that institutional racism still exits in the UK, the police being the primary example. Too many on here assume that the BLM movement is concerned with the British public rather than British institutions. I can assure you that this is not the case. The trigger for these protests should really tell people all they need to know.

Thanks for the reply. I watched the Talkshyte video above earlier. Clearly the interviewer was trying to goad the activist and probably appeal to the white van man audience and there wasn’t a great deal of balance to the 25 minute debate, but the activist representing the BML movement did the cause no good in my opinion.  He was a fool. The BLM movement, and for what worth I wish it was the BAMELM movement, really need some prominent patronage with the media and politicians to start getting some traction. The protests I think also are, or will become, counter productive.  That would be a great pity, as societal reform is clearly needed starting with education in my view.  I don’t want to be further dragged into this debate as in truth I have little personal experience.

[Comrade 86]

13 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

It's easy to see the scale of what has to be overcome when so many people simply refuse to accept that institutional racism still exists in the UK

Institutions, by definition wield power, and wherever there is power (no matter the level or strength) - you will still see institutional racism.

The institutions however, do not need to defend themselves, but the public do it for them (by assuming the accusation is somehow levelled at them, not the institutions). The individual public generally hold no power (even at the ballot box, our FPTP renders most votes meaningless)

@Jourdan talks about the BAME community needing to address their own issues with crime, gangs, family units etc first, but you don't have to think too hard to draw this all back to the root cause being poverty and inequality - which has historically been stacked against them because of institutional racism. I don't see them making much headway whilst they are trapped in poverty by current societal structures

I agree absolutely. I think you've nailed it to be honest though others will doubtless say otherwise. In fairness, I think part of the problem is that people's understanding of the term 'institutional racism' varies widely. Many see the term as being a catch-all which it is most certainly not.

If I could nail down the specific BLM aspiration in terms of the British public, as opposed to British institutions, it would be that they add their weight to the drive for reform, or at least not stand in its way. When so many non-BAME individuals are adamant that they find racism deplorable, is that request really so unreasonable? I don't think it is.

 

[Comrade 86]

6 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

Thanks for the reply. I watched the Talkshyte video above earlier. Clearly the interviewer was trying to goad the activist and probably appeal to the white van man audience and there wasn’t a great deal of balance to the 25 minute debate, but the activist representing the BML movement did the cause no good in my opinion.  He was a fool. The BLM movement, and for what worth I wish it was the BAMELM movement, really need some prominent patronage with the media and politicians to start getting some traction. The protests I think also are, or will become, counter productive.  That would be a great pity, as societal reform is clearly needed starting with education in my view.  I don’t want to be further dragged into this debate as in truth I have little personal experience.

Which video are you referring to bud? I can't comment as I've not seen it but that's a shame if the opportunity was wasted. Can you point me at the video please?

 

 

[Jourdan]

1 hour ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

I've not addressed Jourdan's comments because I don't find them remotely in keeping with those I have responded to, least not the ones I've read. I don't agree with some of what he says but I respect the fact that he has, in my opinion, overcome the barriers that stump so many, as I should point out, have I. Unfortunately, many have not and they are therefore the focus, not the likes of Jourdan and I.

Excuse the brief digression but I do often wonder if some folk, prior to posting some of the stuff I've read on here, ever concern themselves with how many BAME folk actually post on this site. I seem to recall that there are over 5,000 registered DCFC Fans users, but for the sake of this debate let's assume only half of that number, 2,500. If BAME people account for 14% of the populous then that means there are likely up to 350 BAME individuals using this site and yet only two have overtly posted on this thread. Considering why that might be is food for thought.

As for the practical steps, that's very simple. The government needs to stop playing lip service and fully implement the changes they brought about. Deed not words, put simply. For example, one of the major grievances of the BLM movement is BAME people's treatment at the hands of the police. After the independent report commissioned by an under pressure by Theresa May, a thorough investigation revealed a number of serious issues which I addressed at length in a post last week. The subsequent report also made numerous recommendations. I'd like to see them properly implemented so that we do not see rates of death for black people under restraint running at double that of white folk and rising rather than falling. That single stat alone is scandalous enough, though I note nobody seemed to share that opinion when I posted it. Instead folk scurried off to try and find stats that disporved the point though I note they've not returned to post their findings since. Just that single step would be a massive leap forward and given the government commissioned report, it's fair to say that they are not  unaware of this fact. Ask yourself then, why haven't they?

For me, relations with UK law enforcement are absolutely key to ending this unrest. Several more obvious steps along the same lines, would be and end to racial profiling and no more abuse of stop and search powers.

I don't believe and never have done, that ordinary British folk are racist. I actually believe that in some regards, they are fairer minded than any I've come across and I am well travelled. Yes, we have our knuckle-draggers, but then there are unsavoury elements everywhere, including among the UK's BAME communities. I'm not blind to these facts. Where I differ it seems, from the majority on this thread, is that I believe that institutional racism still exits in the UK, the police being the primary example. Too many on here assume that the BLM movement is concerned with the British public rather than British institutions. I can assure you that this is not the case. The trigger for these protests should really tell people all they need to know.

Appreciate your input. I’ll reply in greater depth later. It’s exam season and I am swamped.

Just for context, I grew up in Sinfin and lived there until the age of 13-14. My mum grew up in Allenton. My dad grew up in Normanton - on Molineux St, a stone’s throw from the Baseball Ground. All well known as rough areas of Derby. So if these barriers and these struggles were going to affect anyone, it should have been me and others within my family.

I tend to think that you’ll be trapped where your mindset and your work ethic keeps you - and that’s the same if you are black, white, male, female or otherwise. There are barriers for everyone in that sense.

I don’t think any of those white or Asian families living in Sinfin and such places would have required any less determination to make a success of themselves and if you know these areas, you know they weren’t immune from poverty and inequality either.

If you are willing to push yourself and aspire for better, usually where there is a will, there is a way.

When you say we are rare cases, why is that? In my case, my parents are as working class as you can imagine. If they can do it, why can’t others? If the odds were so stacked against us and we were faced with such an impenetrable wall of poverty and inequality, surely we would have suffered the same fate?

Why aren’t more black families instilling in their children the belief that they can achieve what they want if they set their minds to it? Why aren’t they taking charge of the narrative and aspiring for more for themselves and as a result their children?

This is what I am saying. A lot of these issues - they start from within.

[i-Ram]

19 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Which video are you referring to bud? I can't comment as I've not seen it but that's a shame if the opportunity was wasted. Can you point me at the video please?

Sasha posted it in this thread about 3 hours ago. A Talksport production. Just checked and it is still there. Would be interested on your viewpoint ?

[Comrade 86]

29 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Why aren’t more black families instilling in their children the belief that they can achieve what they want if they set their minds to it? Why aren’t they taking charge of the narrative and aspiring for more for themselves and as a result their children?

This is what I am saying. A lot of these issues - they start from within.

I agree absolutely with part of your thinking and I don't think any of my posts would lead anyone to believe otherwise. That said, the BLM's motivations are wider than the opportunities available to BAME youth, so whilst I agree that some of the issues arise from withing family households, many do not.

I've posted a couple of videos of Akala discussing these exact points which I'd recommend you watching as I think he summarises these points very ably.

[djfred84]

1 hour ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

For those of you unfamiliar with Akala...

 

 

52 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

Appreciate your input. I’ll reply in greater depth later. It’s exam season and I am swamped.

Just for context, I grew up in Sinfin and lived there until the age of 13-14. My mum grew up in Allenton. My dad grew up in Normanton - on Molineux St, a stone’s throw from the Baseball Ground. All well known as rough areas of Derby. So if these barriers and these struggles were going to affect anyone, it should have been me and others within my family.

I tend to think that you’ll be trapped where your mindset and your work ethic keeps you - and that’s the same if you are black, white, male, female or otherwise. There are barriers for everyone in that sense.

I don’t think any of those white or Asian families living in Sinfin and such places would have required any less determination to make a success of themselves and if you know these areas, you know they weren’t immune from poverty and inequality either.

If you are willing to push yourself and aspire for better, usually where there is a will, there is a way.

When you say we are rare cases, why is that? In my case, my parents are as working class as you can imagine. If they can do it, why can’t others? If the odds were so stacked against us and we were faced with such an impenetrable wall of poverty and inequality, surely we would have suffered the same fate?

Why aren’t more black families instilling in their children the belief that they can achieve what they want if they set their minds to it? Why aren’t they taking charge of the narrative and aspiring for more for themselves and as a result their children?

This is what I am saying. A lot of these issues - they start from within.

Watch akalas interview with james obrien there were schools put on  sundays i think where black kids were educated outside the system because they were outcast.