G STAR RAM Posted May 7, 2020 Author Share Posted May 7, 2020 2 hours ago, GboroRam said: The EU is neither the cause nor the solution to this. The history of attacks on the standards of working people comes from the government you elect, not the EU. Is it not also affected by allowing your country to be flooded with cheap labour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 8 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Is it not also affected by allowing your country to be flooded with cheap labour? That's part of the "attacks on the standards of working people comes from the government you elect" that he's talking about But the location of the cheap labour is irrelevant. It is as much overseas as it is here. In my industry the attacks have been offshoring roles to India, Phillipines, Costa Rica - wherever the cheapest labout is. We don't bring the cheap labour here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted May 7, 2020 Author Share Posted May 7, 2020 Just now, SchtivePesley said: That's part of the "attacks on the standards of working people comes from the government you elect" that he's talking about But the location of the cheap labour is irrelevant. It is as much overseas as it is here. In my industry the attacks have been offshoring roles to India, Phillipines, Costa Rica - wherever the cheapest labout is. We don't bring the cheap labour here So if we had elected a different Government we could have stayed in the EU and stopped freedom of movement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 1 hour ago, GboroRam said: But it will. The race to maximise profit goes on in or out of the EU. If it can be done cheaper in China, or in some sweat shop in a poor country, those businesses that utilise it will have an advantage over those that don't. Half the reason we've left the EU is to allow us to find better deals on the world stage, and one advantage will be that we're not tied to EU rules and tariffs. Drop the standards, drop the prices. Cash is king. I've said it before and I'm saying it again... The UK consumer has benefitted over the last 30 odd years by being able to buy cheap stuff from abroad, all while watching UK businesses and industries become uncompetitive and fail. The consumer is as much to blame IMO as the businesses you mention. Why did M&S have to stop UK sourced clothing?. Because why would you spend £10 on a M&S T-Shirt, when Primark have them for £2 and because they are so cheap, we can wear them once and happily send them to landfill. I would love to see the UK's manufacturing base return but the public will have to be weaned off dirt cheap imports first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoetheRam Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 11 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said: I've said it before and I'm saying it again... The UK consumer has benefitted over the last 30 odd years by being able to buy cheap stuff from abroad, all while watching UK businesses and industries become uncompetitive and fail. The consumer is as much to blame IMO as the businesses you mention. Why did M&S have to stop UK sourced clothing?. Because why would you spend £10 on a M&S T-Shirt, when Primark have them for £2 and because they are so cheap, we can wear them once and happily send them to landfill. I would love to see the UK's manufacturing base return but the public will have to be weaned off dirt cheap imports first. Agree completely with your point. Someone somewhere must be able to somehow market this to people in a way that makes them want to pay the difference. We're (mostly) blokes I presume, so we all know that you can buy one pair of jeans that last you 10 years. I'd think nothing of spending £100 on a pair because I know I've only got 2 pairs so the pence per wear by the time they are worn out will be minscule. The missus will "bag a bargain pair" for a tenner and wear them twice at most. Somehow the message that it's better for the environment and your wallet and equally as stylish to buy quality and buy once needs to be passed on to the people who do most of the shopping... i.e women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 11 minutes ago, JoetheRam said: Agree completely with your point. Someone somewhere must be able to somehow market this to people in a way that makes them want to pay the difference. We're (mostly) blokes I presume, so we all know that you can buy one pair of jeans that last you 10 years. I'd think nothing of spending £100 on a pair because I know I've only got 2 pairs so the pence per wear by the time they are worn out will be minscule. The missus will "bag a bargain pair" for a tenner and wear them twice at most. Somehow the message that it's better for the environment and your wallet and equally as stylish to buy quality and buy once needs to be passed on to the people who do most of the shopping... i.e women. What you're advocating Joe is a complete upending of the economic "growth" mantra/paradigm. ie economic "growth" is direct causation of exponentially increasing consumption. Reduce the consumption and the growth shrinks (but there are other benefits such as the climate isn't so knackered). So the BoE says the UK economy is likely to have "shrunk" by 30% in 2020. Calamity........woe.......doom. Bu by the power of compounding, if we assume our "growth" has been on average 2% this side of 2000, that means our economy is back to the level of 2000. Now i don't know about you, but they were pretty good times I thought. We weren't living in mud huts sharing 1 tv to a street or anything, so is that so bad? Of course - where the brown stuff hits the rotor is that we are now saddled with so much more debt, we "need" growth to be able to pass that debt on to future generations and to make it seem it seem not bad enough to kick up a big fuss over. No easy answers, if we have allowed the debt to be created in our name then perhaps we should pay it off? But imagine Boris going to the country with a big tax increase package...........oh, it might even be worth it!! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoetheRam Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: What you're advocating Joe is a complete upending of the economic "growth" mantra/paradigm. ie economic "growth" is direct causation of exponentially increasing consumption. Reduce the consumption and the growth shrinks (but there are other benefits such as the climate isn't so knackered). So the BoE says the UK economy is likely to have "shrunk" by 30% in 2020. Calamity........woe.......doom. Bu by the power of compounding, if we assume our "growth" has been on average 2% this side of 2000, that means our economy is back to the level of 2000. Now i don't know about you, but they were pretty good times I thought. We weren't living in mud huts sharing 1 tv to a street or anything, so is that so bad? Of course - where the brown stuff hits the rotor is that we are now saddled with so much more debt, we "need" growth to be able to pass that debt on to future generations and to make it seem it seem not bad enough to kick up a big fuss over. No easy answers, if we have allowed the debt to be created in our name then perhaps we should pay it off? But imagine Boris going to the country with a big tax increase package...........oh, it might even be worth it!! ? Darn! Thought I'd cracked it then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevin Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 44 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said: I've said it before and I'm saying it again... The UK consumer has benefitted over the last 30 odd years by being able to buy cheap stuff from abroad, all while watching UK businesses and industries become uncompetitive and fail. The consumer is as much to blame IMO as the businesses you mention. Why did M&S have to stop UK sourced clothing?. Because why would you spend £10 on a M&S T-Shirt, when Primark have them for £2 and because they are so cheap, we can wear them once and happily send them to landfill. I would love to see the UK's manufacturing base return but the public will have to be weaned off dirt cheap imports first. This , the biggest thing exported from China has been deflation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilkleyram Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 20 minutes ago, JoetheRam said: Agree completely with your point. Someone somewhere must be able to somehow market this to people in a way that makes them want to pay the difference. We're (mostly) blokes I presume, so we all know that you can buy one pair of jeans that last you 10 years. I'd think nothing of spending £100 on a pair because I know I've only got 2 pairs so the pence per wear by the time they are worn out will be minscule. The missus will "bag a bargain pair" for a tenner and wear them twice at most. Somehow the message that it's better for the environment and your wallet and equally as stylish to buy quality and buy once needs to be passed on to the people who do most of the shopping... i.e women. Once upon a time many years ago (in the late 60's) the Wilson Government supported an 'I'm Backing Britain' campaign in which we were exhorted to buy British. It wasn't so long after that we started buying cheaper products from overseas. The campaign dwindled away. It is not today's problem only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 Just now, JoetheRam said: Darn! Thought I'd cracked it then! Well you have in a way - you've shown us a different way forward. Which I would be happy to sign up to, but we have to as a country make sure we can all afford the 100 quid jeans and we haven't left a load of folks behind who can only afford the 10 pound ones or they won't eat! Whichever way I look at this I must expect to pay some more to help. Which is ok. But i'd like some honesty from our leaders on it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: So if we had elected a different Government we could have stayed in the EU and stopped freedom of movement? Why are you asking me that. I literally just said it was nothing to do with freedom of movement - people don't have to move here to undercut UK labour. And the 3 example countries I listed aren't in the EU We could however have voted for a government whose ideology would have been to protect UK workers rights over the race to the bottom that our industries are trapped in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevin Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 3 hours ago, GboroRam said: The EU is neither the cause nor the solution to this. The history of attacks on the standards of working people comes from the government you elect, not the EU. Sorry, but we had a chance to vote to improve how we treat workers but we chose to get Brexit done instead. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/24/eu-workers-rights-capital-multinationals I also believe one of the contentious issues around a possible EU trade deal is that UK standards are higher than the EU's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted May 7, 2020 Author Share Posted May 7, 2020 31 minutes ago, King Kevin said: This , the biggest thing exported from China has been deflation. I'd say coronavirus is up there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted May 7, 2020 Author Share Posted May 7, 2020 @Van Wolfie, @JoetheRam and @Van der MoodHoover great thought provoking discussion. Cant wait to see how this whole episode changes consumers. I've seen a lot of social media comments about how people are going to support British business in the aftermath of this crisis, going to be really interesting to see how many were just saying it for social media likes and how many this was a real wake up call for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 Also whether the government are going to actually value key workers after all of this. It's been a stark lesson in who society actually depends on when the brown stuff hits the fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 Good to see plenty of surefooted in the briefing today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted May 7, 2020 Author Share Posted May 7, 2020 This is the respect the police have these days. If my parents had seen me behaving like this I would be fearful of going home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 15 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: This is the respect the police have these days. If my parents had seen me behaving like this I would be fearful of going home. Doesn’t play on my ipad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted May 7, 2020 Author Share Posted May 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, Archied said: Doesn’t play on my ipad Not actually sure if it is a police officer or community support, although its irrelevant to the point. Group of, what looks like teenage lads, surrounding him, filming him and mocking him and even riding off on his bike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 Just now, G STAR RAM said: Not actually sure if it is a police officer or community support, although its irrelevant to the point. Group of, what looks like teenage lads, surrounding him, filming him and mocking him and even riding off on his bike. Sad state of affairs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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