The Politics Thread 2019

[G STAR RAM]

2 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Too many Snowflakes* on here who start crying that everyone calls them racist as a debating tactic.

I don't think any of our (far) right contingent on here are actually racist and I'm not sure I can remember anyone who actually has called them that, but apologies if I have missed it.

I don't think anyone has really implied it either, but if they have done, please try and judge it by the same loose standards that you place on the infamous Brexit bus!

*yes, I am aware of the irony of using Snowflake here

Snowflake? It really is water off a ducks back, it says a lot more about them than it does about me.

I spent 20 years having my own mum calling me a racist because of my thoughts on immigration. 20 years later, she voted for The Brexit Party.

Personally, I would rather have a good debate on immigration, if one side is incapable of doing that it's a shame, but shows what is becoming of our nation...and we all know who the true snowflakes are...

 

[Norman]

2 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Too many Snowflakes* on here who start crying that everyone calls them racist as a debating tactic.

I don't think any of our (far) right contingent on here are actually racist and I'm not sure I can remember anyone who actually has called them that, but apologies if I have missed it.

I don't think anyone has really implied it either, but if they have done, please try and judge it by the same loose standards that you place on the infamous Brexit bus!

*yes, I am aware of the irony of using Snowflake here

The posts get pulled. And as far as I am aware, no further action is taken. 

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

The posts get pulled. And as far as I am aware, no further action is taken. 

I'd be surprised if you were been unfairly labelled a racist by the same people and nothing was ever done about it.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

 

[Norman]

38 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

I'd be surprised if you were been unfairly labelled a racist by the same people and nothing was ever done about it.

Welcome to the world of hypocrisy that me, @G STAR RAM, @maxjam put up with. And the likes of Archie and stringerbell fell victim of.

I don't report the posts, by the way. Not my style.

Your stance and general bemusement towards it says a lot, too. 

[maxjam]

59 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

I'd be surprised if you were been unfairly labelled a racist by the same people and nothing was ever done about it.

Well for what its worth I try to be polite and courteous in all my replies and answer any questions asked.  I've never had any warning points or posts singled out for removal.

I have alerted mods several times in the past about people calling me or others nazi's/fascists but most of those were against Lambchop who thought anyone marginally to the right of Trotsky was a nazi so they don't count ?

[ariotofmyown]

28 minutes ago, Norman said:

Welcome to the world of hypocrisy that me, @G STAR RAM, @maxjam put up with. And the likes of Archie and stringerbell fell victim of.

I don't report the posts, by the way. Not my style.

Your stance and general bemusement towards it says a lot, too. 

Keep, erm, fighting the good fight.

[ariotofmyown]

Just now, maxjam said:

Well for what its worth I try to be polite and courteous in all my replies and answer any questions asked.  I've never had any warning points or posts singled out for removal.

I have alerted mods several times in the past about people calling me or others nazi's/fascists but most of those were against Lambchop who thought anyone marginally to the right of Trotsky was a nazi so they don't count ?

Typical fascist response ?

[ariotofmyown]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Snowflake? It really is water off a ducks back, it says a lot more about them than it does about me.

I spent 20 years having my own mum calling me a racist because of my thoughts on immigration. 20 years later, she voted for The Brexit Party.

Personally, I would rather have a good debate on immigration, if one side is incapable of doing that it's a shame, but shows what is becoming of our nation...and we all know who the true snowflakes are...

 

Maybe your Mum is leftwing and wanted to leave the EU as she is anti-neoliberal. Or maybe she was stupid enough to think that bus money was going to be spent on the NHS, when it was clearly just a random idea...I mean, they could have picked literally anything but they just picked the NHS out of the hat.

If you want reasonable debates on immigration, a good tip might not be to get into the semantics of "is it racist to be anti-polish/muslim/jew etc as they aren't a different race". That is not a good look and people aren't going to treat you seriously.

Farage poster was clearly spreading the threat of "the other" to appeal to people's fear. No ones cares if it was "racist" under the strictest of definitions of race.

Johnson horrible "letterbox" joke again may not have been strictly "racist" but it was meant to spread division and appeal to people who have a warped idea of free speech. He gave no regard to the poor women who now have a new name to be called, or worse. Or maybe he did give them regard, but was happy with such an outcome.

It just seems so obvious to me that the issues facing our country are not mostly caused by people coming into out country who aren't white/aren't native English speakers. It's years and years of mostly unregulated capitalism. Thatcher's idea of everyonre having shares in Britain PLC seem fairly noble and naive now as markets are manipulated by the rich for the mega rich.

The more petty arguments there are between what is and isn't racist are exactly what the likes of Johnson, Trump and Farage want us to be occupied with. So them and their friends can keep getting away with it.

[Norman]

24 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Keep, erm, fighting the good fight.

Will do. You enjoy your middle-class utopia tonight with your bottle of champagne socialist. 

[Sith Happens]

9 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

The more petty arguments there are between what is and isn't racist are exactly what the likes of Johnson, Trump and Farage want us to be occupied with. So them and their friends can keep getting away with it.

Dont forget Diane Abbott, although in fairness she seems to wear her racist badge with pride.

[maxjam]

24 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

It just seems so obvious to me that the issues facing our country are not mostly caused by people coming into out country who aren't white/aren't native English speakers. It's years and years of mostly unregulated capitalism. Thatcher's idea of everyonre having shares in Britain PLC seem fairly noble and naive now as markets are manipulated by the rich for the mega rich.

The more petty arguments there are between what is and isn't racist are exactly what the likes of Johnson, Trump and Farage want us to be occupied with. So them and their friends can keep getting away with it.

I don't think immigration is the only problem the country faces, as you rightly say years of unregulated capitalism has and continues to take its toll - but it is a big problem.  

I don't blame migrants for wanting to come here for a better life, who wouldn't want that for themselves and their family?  I do blame successive governments and their inability to address the problem and the concerns of their citizens and the struggle we are having around what is or isn't deemed racist is symptomatic of this.  

We can all see the benefits of controlled immigration  but the sheer reckless number of people we have let into the country without insisting they learn the language or integrate into our culture is not only resulting in societal problems but has also accelerated the decline of our NHS and put increasing pressure on education, policiing, etc. 

[Highgate]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

I don't think immigration is the only problem the country faces, as you rightly say years of unregulated capitalism has and continues to take its toll - but it is a big problem.  

I don't blame migrants for wanting to come here for a better life, who wouldn't want that for themselves and their family?  I do blame successive governments and their inability to address the problem and the concerns of their citizens and the struggle we are having around what is or isn't deemed racist is symptomatic of this.  

We can all see the benefits of controlled immigration  but the sheer reckless number of people we have let into the country without insisting they learn the language or integrate into our culture is not only resulting in societal problems but has also accelerated the decline of our NHS and put increasing pressure on education, policiing, etc. 

I agree that Immigration is a huge issue for all countries really.  At least those countries where immigrants want to migrate to in large numbers.  Just opening the border and letting everyone in isn't really a sustainable option if you are dealing with huge numbers on a regular basis.

But 'controlled immigration' is a vague term and it allows for a huge variation in actual policies, and what are the actual objectives?  Should you try to give new opportunities to refugees/economic migrants who desperately need it or are we trying to cherry pick the most economically valuable immigrants who can benefit the host country?  Should there be an obligation to help as many immigrants as we can?

I don't get the need on insisting that immigrants learn the language when they arrive?  Why?  Yes of course it would be a huge benefit to them if they did, but if they can survive without it, why is it anybody's business to insist?  And integrate into the culture?  What does that even mean?  What is UK culture for example?  All immigrants have to do when arriving in a new country is obey the laws of their new home, not change who they are....or go out of their way to 'integrate' as far as I'm concerned. 

As the climate crisis is set to make mass migration more common in years to come, people in the developed world are probably going to have to get used to vast numbers of people from abroad wanting to start a new life in their country. It's an issue that's not going to go away in a hurry. 

 

[maxjam]

3 minutes ago, Highgate said:

I agree that Immigration is a huge issue for all countries really.  At least those countries where immigrants want to migrate to in large numbers.  Just opening the border and letting everyone in isn't really a sustainable option if you are dealing with huge numbers on a regular basis.

agreed

 

4 minutes ago, Highgate said:

But 'controlled immigration' is a vague term and it allows for a huge variation in actual policies, and what are the actual objectives?  Should you try to give new opportunities to refugees/economic migrants who desperately need it or are we trying to cherry pick the most economically valuable immigrants who can benefit the host country?  Should there be an obligation to help as many immigrants as we can?

I don't really know the answer to this tbh but it really needs to be discussed openly rather than people feeling scared to bring it up through fear of being called racist.  Personally, I guess that given we have allowed so many migrants into the country already, initial controlled immigration should be on a filling necessary jobs basis.

 

10 minutes ago, Highgate said:

I don't get the need on insisting that immigrants learn the language when they arrive?  Why?  Yes of course it would be a huge benefit to them if they did, but if they can survive without it, why is it anybody's business to insist?  And integrate into the culture?  What does that even mean?  What is UK culture for example?  All immigrants have to do when arriving in a new country is obey the laws of their new home, not change who they are....or go out of their way to 'integrate' as far as I'm concerned. 

A couple of interesting articles here;

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/apr/14/david-cameron-immigrants-learn-english

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/20/tony-blair-says-migrants-must-integrate-to-combat-far-right

[ariotofmyown]

2 hours ago, Norman said:

Will do. You enjoy your middle-class utopia tonight with your bottle of champagne socialist. 

And you enjoy your white lightening whilst carving far right slogans into your arm with a compass point.

Why do you hate rich people who care about others? Are you jealous that us champagne socialists have more than you? You should stop been lazy and just work harder and stop blaming others for your problems.

Which are ironically the political views of the people you seem to follow. But they aren't champagne socialists, they are champagne wnkers.

(Obviously, I don't really believe any of that, well apart from the last paragraph. And the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph. Just thought I'd point that out before you get all Snowflakey and say that I am calling you a racist. And I'm not a champagne socialist. Perhaps a Craft Beer socialist. Or an Old Peculiar socialist. But I don't really drink much these day so a Orange Squash socialist).

[Norman]

8 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

And you enjoy your white lightening whilst carving far right slogans into your arm with a compass point.

Why do you hate rich people who care about others? Are you jealous that us champagne socialists have more than you? You should stop been lazy and just work harder and stop blaming others for your problems.

Which are ironically the political views of the people you seem to follow. But they aren't champagne socialists, they are champagne wnkers.

(Obviously, I don't really believe any of that, well apart from the last paragraph. And the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph. Just thought I'd point that out before you get all Snowflakey and say that I am calling you a racist. And I'm not a champagne socialist. Perhaps a Craft Beer socialist. Or an Old Peculiar socialist. But I don't really drink much these day so a Orange Squash socialist).

Well, no. You're assuming again. 

I'm glad you have stopped pretending you know what problems working class people have and the areas we live in. 

Maybe Mummy can tell you some more stories from when she used to have to work with our kind.

I'd suggest spending the rest of your night watching Lily Allen crying over the Labour manifesto. 

Ironic that your political fellows try and tell us what the problem is, instead of listening to us. Just like yourself. 

[ariotofmyown]

2 hours ago, maxjam said:

I don't think immigration is the only problem the country faces, as you rightly say years of unregulated capitalism has and continues to take its toll - but it is a big problem.  

I don't blame migrants for wanting to come here for a better life, who wouldn't want that for themselves and their family?  I do blame successive governments and their inability to address the problem and the concerns of their citizens and the struggle we are having around what is or isn't deemed racist is symptomatic of this.  

We can all see the benefits of controlled immigration  but the sheer reckless number of people we have let into the country without insisting they learn the language or integrate into our culture is not only resulting in societal problems but has also accelerated the decline of our NHS and put increasing pressure on education, policiing, etc. 

But there is so much else that needs sorting out, but the 'immigration problem' gets so much discussion.

Surely you accept that EU immigrants are usually young and fit workers who contribute taxes and use a disproportionate amount of public services? And that non-EU immigrants (the sort proper racists hate as they aren't white) mostly come to the UK to fulfil specific skills gaps and it is difficult them to even be allowed to work here.

If we don't want as many refugees here, stop contributing to the reasons they move countries (war and climate change).

If we don't want as many illegal immigrants here, clamp down on dodgy businesses who exploit them to make more profits.

[Gritstone Ram]

10 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

And you enjoy your white lightening whilst carving far right slogans into your arm with a compass point.

Why do you hate rich people who care about others? Are you jealous that us champagne socialists have more than you? You should stop been lazy and just work harder and stop blaming others for your problems.

Which are ironically the political views of the people you seem to follow. But they aren't champagne socialists, they are champagne wnkers.

(Obviously, I don't really believe any of that, well apart from the last paragraph. And the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph. Just thought I'd point that out before you get all Snowflakey and say that I am calling you a racist. And I'm not a champagne socialist. Perhaps a Craft Beer socialist. Or an Old Peculiar socialist. But I don't really drink much these day so a Orange Squash socialist).

The thing is people who work hard and have made money for themselves have never really felt like they have had much money but what they do have is assets like a house which they have paid most of their working life for. This has gained value beyond their dreams and they actually think they can pass something of value on to their children. What they don’t want is to have to give 40% to the government.

[Norman]

4 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

But there is so much else that needs sorting out, but the 'immigration problem' gets so much discussion.

Surely you accept that EU immigrants are usually young and fit workers who contribute taxes and use a disproportionate amount of public services? And that non-EU immigrants (the sort proper racists hate as they aren't white) mostly come to the UK to fulfil specific skills gaps and it is difficult them to even be allowed to work here.

If we don't want as many refugees here, stop contributing to the reasons they move countries (war and climate change).

If we don't want as many illegal immigrants here, clamp down on dodgy businesses who exploit them to make more profits.

Yeah, like the housing shortage, house prices, personal debt, NHS crisis, wage compression, prisons, policing, public services, transport system etc. Sort of all linked, though isnt it? 

So debate it. Do you think we can sustain 300,000 extra a year? 

Does 300,000 people putting in a few grand of taxes more than they take mean we have enough money to build a new hospital, prison, police station, Dr's surgeries, roads, transport links etc? 

How long does it take to build that infrastructure. The problem isn't colour of skin, or even what job they do. It's the sheer number has to be controlled better. 

[ariotofmyown]

1 minute ago, Norman said:

Well, no. You're assuming again. 

I'm glad you have stopped pretending you know what problems working class people have and the areas we live in. 

Maybe Mummy can tell you some more stories from when she used to have to work with our kind.

I do know the problems in 'your' areas. You are all bone idle and live on benefits. According to you.

Hilarious that you think of me as some Jacob Mogg character, one of your heroes!

I went to a comprehensive in a depressed midlands town, but unlike you, worked hard. Managed to get an ok job after moving with mates to London after been unemployed for ages.

You should have done the same as me, then you could have joined me in my ivory tower and supported policies that help working people rather than siding with etonian politicians who blame everything on immigrants/the poor depending on which target is currently most hated.