Plain for all to see (but not the manager) !

[AdamRam]

7 minutes ago, David said:

When you post on a public forum you have to accept your views will be challenged, I agree with TuffLuff in that there is a way to disagree/agree without undermining, but I often find the tone of replies are dictated by the opening post.

We had one with Lawrence not so long back, "what is the point in Lawrence" and "Just using oxygen", the member openly admitted later they were being provocative.

Now I'm not suggesting Ram8 has been provocative in any way with this thread, but I can understand how it's not developed into a serious discussion with the tone which does have a whiff of "we know more than Rowett" whilst speaking on behalf of other fans,  which Chris Martin actually divides so many on, I don't think it's as plain for all to see as Ram8 thinks.

I am a Martin fan, why wouldn't I be? Top scorer 3 seasons running I like goals, he scores them! Gutted when we loaned him to Fulham, delighted he came back and a little sad it didn't work out for him under Rowett. In all honesty when you look at our "problems" in the team I don't see Martin being the answer despite being a little wasteful in recent games in front of goal. 

Martin is also on loan now, no recall, he's at Reading till the end of the season like it or not, he's not an option we have. 

Elsnik also on loan is impressing at Swindon, but I posted recently we have to remember this is in League 2, we still don't know if he will be able to cut it at this level, lost count of the young players I have seen posts of give them a chance for their careers to end up playing for the Dog & Duck.

I personally think it was a great move to send him out on loan, gets a first full season of first team football under his belt and give him the experience of playing in front of a paying and we'll boo when we want crowd. Even better he's now involved in a play off challenge! This season could be the making of him and be of huge benefit to us next year, or the manager and coaches may feel he needs another season out on loan at a higher level, I wouldn't be against that but would like to see him involved in pre season with our first team first.

I also disagree strongly with a post Ram8 made in another topic which went under the radar today, Nugent and Jerome League 1 at best was the claim. Both have had successful careers at a higher level than League 1 and whilst Nugent is out of form it's tad disrespectful to make such a claim. Jerome, early days, probably still uses a sat nav to find his way to Pride Park, give him a chance, a real chance, Martin didn't hit the ground running when he arrived either, took some time and a Steve McClaren to get the best out of him.

It's neither of their fault that Martin is no longer with us, they are our players which we have to choose from between now and May, I think we should perhaps get behind them a little more and hope one of them starts finding the net again for us soon.

As always, open to being disagreed with.  

But given our lack of midfield options and that Martin is a proven goal scorer, would it have been better to have them at the club rather than on loan? 

Surley the only way (and I haven’t seen him so don’t know) to find out if the young lad would make it at this level is to try it, fair enough if we had an overload of options on that area that would block his progress but we haven’t.

i also don’t get this booing when we want comment? Where do you sit, because when I goto games, both home and away I don’t really here this, yet I hear the select few repeating it, maybe it’s a certain part of the ground?

[RiddingsRam]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

I trust you're busily preparing your application form for when Gary does get the chop. Sound like you're a much better qualified football manager and coach than GR (well, in your own mind anyway). 

New Football Manager has just come out hasn't it? Must of got Derby promoted. If only it was that easy.

[Mistaram]

2 hours ago, Ram8 said:

I feel, very strongly, that we would be in a MUCH BETTER position if we were now playing Chris Martin regularly, and a MUCH, MUCH BETTER position, particularly if Rowett had also appreciated Will Hughes, and / or given Elsnick his first team chance .. 

But his one dimensional tactical thinking, that we got away with for a while, has now started to show his serious limitations as a manager, and if Mel Morris  starts to tot up the costly mistakes and seriously flawed assessments of ‘player values’ to the club that Rowett has promoted, then he may (justifiably in my view) bring out the axe again, and look to introduce the ‘Derby Way’ once again, under another manager, because that is the only way that we will get out of this division AND succeed in the Premiership ! 

Possibly his most serious tactical mistake is to neglect the yawning chasm of empty space between Tom Huddlestone / George Thorne and Vydra; because Vydra is NOT a ‘traditional’ linking No. 10 (like Norwich’s Maddison or Fulham’s Cairney), and, despite his valuable goals, cannot be expected to play immediately behind our No. 9, AND be that ‘scheming’ link man ! 

The unfortunate result of this ‘wide open space’ policy is the tactic of having Huddlestone limit himself to launching long balls to wingmen who have not got either the pace or acumen to take them on the run and deliver dangerous crosses .. he (and Thorne) should be alternating this tactic with giving short, accurate balls to (should have been) Hughes or Elsnick ..

I (and to be fair) some other supporters on this Forum, can see this so clearly, why cannot our well paid professional manager ? 

 

You do see a lot of stupid posts on here but I think your trying to top them all  Why do you think Martin with two league goals in his last 39 appearances we would be in a better position Will Hughes for Christ sake he's gone he wanted Prem football move on Have you noticed were are in the playoffs were not in a relegation battle  Your not being clever noticing there's a gap in midfield everyone knows that Nobody more so than Rowett but what is he to do he's not got the personnel to fill that gap You can say that's his fault but the midfield are the ones that got us to second place  Waste of time talking about players and playing styles of people who left the club theve gone they are not coming back 

[AdamRam]

7 minutes ago, Mistaram said:

You do see a lot of stupid posts on here but I think your trying to top them all  Why do you think Martin with two league goals in his last 39 appearances we would be in a better position Will Hughes for Christ sake he's gone he wanted Prem football move on Have you noticed were are in the playoffs were not in a relegation battle  Your not being clever noticing there's a gap in midfield everyone knows that Nobody more so than Rowett but what is he to do he's not got the personnel to fill that gap You can say that's his fault but the midfield are the ones that got us to second place  Waste of time talking about players and playing styles of people who left the club theve gone they are not coming back 

How does Martins 2 goals in 39 appearances (which I’m pretty sure is incorrect and he has scored more than that over the past 39 games) compare to Jerome ? Hopefully you will use the same calculator for both ?

[IlsonDerby]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Ram 8 ......... get over yourself. 

 

2 hours ago, Gaspode said:

There are times when I despair at being a Derby supporter.....

You pair going to come back at him with your opinions/facts to rebut his claims or are you going to make silly comments that add nothing to the debate? 

Its a fans forum for fans to discuss and debate opinion. Not for fans to make snarky comments rather than constructively building an argument against the original poster. 

I don’t agree with everything he has said but when I reply I’ll add to the conversation I won’t just dismiss it because it goes against some of my opinions... 

[jagerbob]

Martin doesnt run in behind, he creates no space for Vydra, and Vydra cant play a through ball to him.

If you remember, whenever Ince played in the hole for derby with Martin he had nio space at all, but play him with Bent.. and then all of a sudden he has more space.

I think Nugent is better suited to derby than martin at this current time.

[lrm14]

4 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

How does Martins 2 goals in 39 appearances (which I’m pretty sure is incorrect and he has scored more than that over the past 39 games) compare to Jerome ? Hopefully you will use the same calculator for both ?

According to Transfermarkt, for this season Martin has 531 minutes per goal compared to Jerome's 682 minutes per goal.

[IlsonDerby]

I think we shouldn’t be contemplating Rowett going. I do think however this summer marks his 3rd transfer window and that’s the ‘get a new manager in and give him time, give him 3 transfer windows’ sort of time scale. 

 

Its obvious to a lot of us that the problems are caused by the space between our midfield and our attack.

People stopped playing 442 because it was overrun by a formation with 3 in the middle. We are currently playing 2 in the middle and being overran because for me Vydra (excellent goal scorer) isn’t a number 10. He doesn’t have the discipline of a midfielder which you need some of for that role. 

 

I look forward to seeing how Rowett plans to address this and will give him this summer to bring in the energy our team so dearly lacks but I’ll be worried if next October our midfield are still miles away from our attack. 

[Day]

19 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

But given our lack of midfield options and that Martin is a proven goal scorer, would it have been better to have them at the club rather than on loan? 

Surley the only way (and I haven’t seen him so don’t know) to find out if the young lad would make it at this level is to try it, fair enough if we had an overload of options on that area that would block his progress but we haven’t.

i also don’t get this booing when we want comment? Where do you sit, because when I goto games, both home and away I don’t really here this, yet I hear the select few repeating it, maybe it’s a certain part of the ground?

If you're asking me today if I would like Martin as an option even on the bench then yes I would. 

If you asked me back when he left I wouldn't have disagreed letting him go, we had Winnall at the time who was ahead of Martin in the team, his game time would have been even more limited with Jerome's arrival.

The Elsnik thing is another one better with hindsight, back when he went out on loan we had seen very little of him, would you honestly have had him on the bench ahead of others? Whilst he would have been sat around waiting for a chance he's out there getting first team football which is a lot different to U23's

I'm not saying Derby fans are booing each week, we're not, I didn't even post we were, but he will hear the moans, groans at Swindon that you won't hear at a empty St Georges Park which will help in his mental development. Boo's are inevitable at every club, he will have no doubt experienced this already this season despite their position. 

At some point we will have to throw him in, give him that chance, and when we do he will have that experience of playing in front of a paying crowd.

For every player you can name that were thrown straight in you can find a David Beckham that went out to Preston. No right or wrong way of bringing them through and each case will be different, clearly the coaches and staff thought it would be best for him to go out on loan, I can't sit here and say that's the wrong decision, instead understand why and how it can benefit him.

[Gaspode]

3 minutes ago, IlsonDerby said:

I don’t agree with everything he has said but when I reply I’ll add to the conversation I won’t just dismiss it because it goes against some of my opinions... 

Seems to me that's exactly what you've done in response to our replies. As it happens I was going to deconstruct his comments, but I deleted my post because I didn't think the original post warranted me wasting any more of my time.

Sorry if that offends your views of what I'm 'allowed' to post, but as long as I don't breach the rules, I think you'll find the forum is here to allow people to post pretty much what they want - particularly in response to ridiculous and deliberately provocative posts....

[Mistaram]

9 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

How does Martins 2 goals in 39 appearances (which I’m pretty sure is incorrect and he has scored more than that over the past 39 games) compare to Jerome ? Hopefully you will use the same calculator for both ?

One for Derby one for Reading there that wasn't hard was it or would you like me to name his 39 league appearances  I'm not talking about Jerome I was replying to someone who said we would be in a better position with Martin  I don't need a calculator pal the stats are there if you take the time to look at them 

[IlsonDerby]

2 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

Seems to me that's exactly what you've done in response to our replies. As it happens I was going to deconstruct his comments, but I deleted my post because I didn't think the original post warranted me wasting any more of my time.

Sorry if that offends your views of what I'm 'allowed' to post, but as long as I don't breach the rules, I think you'll find the forum is here to allow people to post pretty much what they want - particularly in response to ridiculous and deliberately provocative posts....

How can it be when you never actually gave an opinion?! 

But you felt the need to post s comment anyway ridiculing? Why bother when it adds nothing to debate? 

No by all means post what you want I’d just hoped that on this forum we could have people arguing opinions with opinions to create interesting arguments rather than arrogantly ridiculing another poster having different views. 

[Mistaram]

3 minutes ago, Mistaram said:

One for Derby one for Reading there that wasn't hard was it or would you like me to name his 39 league appearances  I'm not talking about Jerome I was replying to someone who said we would be in a better position with Martin  I don't need a calculator pal the stats are there if you take the time to look at them I'm talking about his last 39Derby league appearances so actually he's scored one 

 

[Mistaram]

25 minutes ago, jagerbob said:

Martin doesnt run in behind, he creates no space for Vydra, and Vydra cant play a through ball to him.

If you remember, whenever Ince played in the hole for derby with Martin he had nio space at all, but play him with Bent.. and then all of a sudden he has more space.

I think Nugent is better suited to derby than martin at this current time.

Jagerbob  Sorry mate but you cost me £20 last week you said we would beat Leeds easily like fool I had a bet  ?? Yourspot on though Nugent better suited than Martin at the moment 

[AdamRam]

29 minutes ago, David said:

If you're asking me today if I would like Martin as an option even on the bench then yes I would. 

If you asked me back when he left I wouldn't have disagreed letting him go, we had Winnall at the time who was ahead of Martin in the team, his game time would have been even more limited with Jerome's arrival.

The Elsnik thing is another one better with hindsight, back when he went out on loan we had seen very little of him, would you honestly have had him on the bench ahead of others? Whilst he would have been sat around waiting for a chance he's out there getting first team football which is a lot different to U23's

I'm not saying Derby fans are booing each week, we're not, I didn't even post we were, but he will hear the moans, groans at Swindon that you won't hear at a empty St Georges Park which will help in his mental development. Boo's are inevitable at every club, he will have no doubt experienced this already this season despite their position. 

At some point we will have to throw him in, give him that chance, and when we do he will have that experience of playing in front of a paying crowd.

For every player you can name that were thrown straight in you can find a David Beckham that went out to Preston. No right or wrong way of bringing them through and each case will be different, clearly the coaches and staff thought it would be best for him to go out on loan, I can't sit here and say that's the wrong decision, instead understand why and how it can benefit him.

I actually beleive the best decision was to sent Martin out on loan, the wrong one for me was not to play him in the first place.  He is only effective when match fit, playing him off the bench does him or the team no favours. Apologies if I misunderstood your booing comment.

I haven’t seen enough of Elsnick to say I would or wouldn’t have him ahead of others, I could lie however even now I couldn’t even hold my hands up and say I’ve seen him play for more than 15 minutes throughout his career.  

I don’t actually agree or disagree with the OP around the formation, it just seemed you were one of the few that was willing to debate rather than just throw out the usual replies to when someone questioned the manager.

 

[AdamRam]

31 minutes ago, Mistaram said:

One for Derby one for Reading there that wasn't hard was it or would you like me to name his 39 league appearances  I'm not talking about Jerome I was replying to someone who said we would be in a better position with Martin  I don't need a calculator pal the stats are there if you take the time to look at them 

But if they are saying that Martin is a better option than Jerskme then is it not relevant ?

[RamNut]

4 hours ago, Ram8 said:

Possibly his most serious tactical mistake is to neglect the yawning chasm of empty space between Tom Huddlestone / George Thorne and Vydra; because Vydra is NOT a ‘traditional’ linking No. 10 (like Norwich’s Maddison or Fulham’s Cairney), and, despite his valuable goals, cannot be expected to play immediately behind our No. 9, AND be that ‘scheming’ link man ! 

The unfortunate result of this ‘wide open space’ policy is the tactic of having Huddlestone limit himself to launching long balls to wingmen

 

I think you are right that there is a big space between the 2 and the 3 at times in the 4231.

Some teams do seem to get between the lines and take over the midfield.

It happened v sheff united. 

Fair point imo.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

1 hour ago, Mistaram said:

One for Derby one for Reading there that wasn't hard was it or would you like me to name his 39 league appearances  I'm not talking about Jerome I was replying to someone who said we would be in a better position with Martin  I don't need a calculator pal the stats are there if you take the time to look at them 

Are we not counting the 11 for fulham when he was sent out on loan by another manager who went on to struggle after he left?

[Mistaram]

44 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

But if they are saying that Martin is a better option than Jerskme then is it not relevant ?

Adam if you go back to the start of this thread by ram8 nowhere is Jerome even mentioned you are the one who has mentioned him your talking about two entirely different style players  If you want to compere their goal scoring records then you look them up then compere 

[Millenniumram]

32 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Are we not counting the 11 for fulham when he was sent out on loan by another manager who went on to struggle after he left?

None of those 11 were scored in his last 39.

Thats not to say Martin is a poor player, but statistics brought up about Jerome must also be considered to be out of sorts if that about Martin is.