Surprised. Embarrassed. Frustrated.

[archied]

2 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

It’s a bit concerning when we were linked with Mc Clean from WBA not only were we quoted £15 million (?) and dispite his personal views he has no actual footballing ability yes he runs up and down but everything else is lacking from everything else I have seen of him. I would love to see the likes of the Hughes type of players performing for Derby again but I have to put my hopes on the Elsnick’s and Thomas of this world coming through to show that bit extra. Most worrying was the players we were linked with in the transfer windows as there is usually a basis to it because to me they were average at best ( I have no problem with signings of Huddlestone Davies and ledley for thier cost vs experience)

Yes the McLean one was kind of a worry but I could be being unfair as I’m only really going on views of others of the type player he is

[Sparkle]

10 minutes ago, archied said:

Yes the McLean one was kind of a worry but I could be being unfair as I’m only really going on views of others of the type player he is

Run up and down merchant for me in fact he is not getting a game at WBA with pardew and they are bottom of the league 

[archied]

1 minute ago, Sparkle said:

Run up and down merchant for me in fact he is not getting a game at WBA with pardew and they are bottom of the league 

Depends on ,price ,wages and contract length ,if he was/is a Russell with more end product I could see the value for a promotion chasing side but not sure beyond that but as I say I may have it totally wrong as I’ve not really watched him play

[SaintRam]

59 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

Absolutely. I really like the look of Kasey Palmer: young, hungry, vibrant, skillful, quick.

To think we used to have Hughes, Bryson, Ince, Martin, Hendrick who were all technically very good. 

Now, we go for turgidity, reliability. 

We used to buy Mercedes SLKs and the odd Porsche Turbo, now it's used Ford Fiestas and Volvos. We did buy what looked like a new Porshe but turns out it's a Corsa with a fibreglass body kit and go fasta stripes. 

I'm getting a bit bored of turgid reliability. 

That's the definition of looking on the past with rose-tinted glasses imo,

I'll accept that Hendrick, Ince and Hughes would get into this team - which is why they are playing PL football. But Hendrick and Hughes are arguably the most gifted players we've had in a technical sense in a long time and we bought neither. The other two players in that conversation, Huddlestone and (pre-injury) Thorne both play for us currently.

Martin and Bryson were both made to look better than they are by a system that flattered the attacking players and made the defensive players vulnerable, the general consensus being that they defenders were far worse than they actually were. Vydra is technically very, very good and one of a number of players I think it's incredibly harsh to describe as "turgid".

I think it's a little unfair to crucify our transfer dealings when the remit was to compete for promotion while getting rid of players, not picking them up. I'd say that's gone pretty well.

Next season I think Elsnik will be playing, and we'll probably buy a Winger - and Thomas will likely be seen. Suddenly, we won't have the appearance of being short on technically gifted players.

[Ellafella]

18 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

Martin and Bryson were both made to look better than they are by a system that flattered the attacking players and made the defensive players vulnerable,

Poppy & Co ck Sir, writ large.

And your subsequent argument is based on supposition. 

Whether we bought players from other teams or raised them ourselves is irrelevant. The underlying issue is really about the sort of footballer who is wearing the shirt ...that's what we are discussing. 

[Waffle]

I think Wolves are an anomaly in this league. Although I fear teams such as Norwich will become a promotion rival next season, I don’t think the relegation contenders in the Premiership are all that better than us. Stoke especially are having an identity crisis and will have all of their ‘stars’ shipped out. 

However, don’t write off Derby still getting promotion.

[SaintRam]

52 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

Poppy & Co ck Sir, writ large.

And your subsequent argument is based on supposition. 

Whether we bought players from other teams or raised them ourselves is irrelevant. The underlying issue is really about the sort of footballer who is wearing the shirt ...that's what we are discussing. 

I like both Bryson and Martin but in their prime they were both decent Champ players at best. That's just opinion, and you're free to yours, but the numbers support mine.

My point was that we have plenty of technical players still at the club, that are getting less credit because the system no longer flatters attacking play.

But, again, I will accept that I'd like to have the likes of Hendrick and Ince still playing for us.

[Smyth_18]

I honestly think we're a 'what Lawrence was signed to do' away from promotion. I.e. a Tom Ince. 

[Ellafella]

23 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

I like both Bryson and Martin but in their prime they were both decent Champ players at best. That's just opinion, and you're free to yours, but the numbers support mine.

My point was that we have plenty of technical players still at the club, that are getting less credit because the system no longer flatters attacking play.

But, again, I will accept that I'd like to have the likes of Hendrick and Ince still playing for us.

...if they cease to be used in the correct way, they "appear" to be "past it". How many times did Peter Taylor pick up "has Beens" and re-generate them? 

I'm not so sure about an abundance of technical players still at the Club...we have ripped out the spark plugs, and the dynamo and drained the power steering. We've improved the brakes, and fitted some anti-roll bars but we've not got any real zip once we are in a low gear. I hope I'm wrong...Casey Palmer and a rejuvenated TL may change things but I have serious doubts about the latter. Maybe Ledley will help us re-establish some grip but we are beginning to look very mid-table again. 

[SSD]

I’m proud of where we are in the league. Too many Dr Dooms who support our club. Think how much money some of the teams around us have spent this season. Gary’s trying to build a new look squad, granted I think the squad is too old but it’s more robust. All I ask from the club is to be competitive (sorry to use poison dwarf’s favourite word) in the division which we are. I want promotion like every other fan but at least we’re challenging at the right end of the table. Forest fans can call our club a team of bottlers all they want. I’d rather be winning football matches than being near in the lower half of the table doing absolutely nothing and being in the league to make the numbers up. 

 

If we don’t achieve promotion I’ll be gutted but I won’t be slating everyone in the club like some fans. Gary Rowett is the right man for this club and I’m sure he’ll get us to the promise land at some point.

[RoyMac5]

32 minutes ago, SouthStandDan said:

If we don’t achieve promotion I’ll be gutted but I won’t be slating everyone in the club like some fans. Gary Rowett is the right man for this club and I’m sure he’ll get us to the promise land at some point.

While you may be willing to wait, I'm not sure how long Mel will want to wait.

[SSD]

9 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

While you may be willing to wait, I'm not sure how long Mel will want to wait.

Maybe he’s realised being trigger happy isn’t the best way. Maybe I’m easy to please ?

[sage]

1 hour ago, SouthStandDan said:

I’m proud of where we are in the league. Too many Dr Dooms who support our club. Think how much money some of the teams around us have spent this season. Gary’s trying to build a new look squad, granted I think the squad is too old but it’s more robust. All I ask from the club is to be competitive (sorry to use poison dwarf’s favourite word) in the division which we are. I want promotion like every other fan but at least we’re challenging at the right end of the table. Forest fans can call our club a team of bottlers all they want. I’d rather be winning football matches than being near in the lower half of the table doing absolutely nothing and being in the league to make the numbers up. 

 

If we don’t achieve promotion I’ll be gutted but I won’t be slating everyone in the club like some fans. Gary Rowett is the right man for this club and I’m sure he’ll get us to the promise land at some point.

I don't think Rowett is being criticised here. Quite the reverse.

He is doing a good job with the mess he inherited and the frustration is that he can't be fully financially supported until the summer. 

[cannable]

1 hour ago, sage said:

I don't think Rowett is being criticised here. Quite the reverse.

He is doing a good job with the mess he inherited and the frustration is that he can't be fully financially supported until the summer. 

Didn’t the owner state previously that if we don’t go up this season we might have to “bring it back” in terms of our approach and finances? 

No idea what that really means but there may not be a lot to play with come June

[Mr Tibbs]

1 hour ago, sage said:

He is doing a good job with the mess he inherited and the frustration is that he can't be fully financially supported until the summer. 

Was it a mess?

It was the opportunity of a lifetime considering his previous achievements. Taken it with both hands so far. 

[ramblur]

14 hours ago, sage said:

This is a not a knee jerk response as I was discussing this with mates pre Brentford.

Surprised - This was supposed to be a transitional season to some extent. Finish top 10 maybe sneak the play offs and get us solid and hard to beat to tweak things next season and go for it. We didn't expect to be 2nd in Feb.

Embarrassed - We have been robbing Peter to pay Paul the last 2 windows as we are in the final season of a 3 year FFP cycle that includes the Clement season where we spent £20 million. This coming summer, that season is disgarded and we should be able to invest again. So this January we didn't act like a side in second place who will go balls out to get promoted. We loaned out Shackell, Martin and Bent to afford to buy Jerome and we allegedly used the Russell fee to enable Anya to make more appearances. 

Frustrated. This is a weak Championship this year IMO and the good luck we received in November and December put us in a position where we were higher than our no more that decent performances/squad suggested we might be. Inevitably our luck has turned a little in recent games, but we weren't really able to strengthen the team and push on. Morris must be fuming that the profligacy of previous seasons has left unable to properly take advantage of our Feb 1st position.

About a year ago I started a thread entitled 'the cost of Pearson' where I argued that his awful spell in charge would cost us millions in the future, maybe 'the cost of Rush' would have been even more apt. If we don't go up this year, I think we could need 4 new players to finish top 2 next season.

I hope our recruitment has improved and a season of profligacy isn't followed by 2 years of austerity but by the bountiful riches of the Premier League.     

Like many,I'm not sure you understand the dynamics of 15/16,thus resulting in your 3rd paragraph.Because of the £12m,loan related,exceptional income,our FFP loss in that season was only £9m and was not a drag on the 3year cycle that you suggest. We actually spent near to £30m on players,but the advent of RVs meant that the 15/16 amortisation charge was little more than that posted in the previous year.This,in turn, suggests to me that a lot of signings must have attracted RVs equal to the total transfer fees.Now this is ok if you get it right,but we can see,for example, in the cases of Butters and Anya that if you get it wrong it can create problems down the line.

The real damage of 15/16 was that the overall wage bill was hiked by a staggering £10m,most of which must surely be player related. Now when you have a large chunk of exceptional income you can sustain this and stay within FFP, but the problem is that this wage bill then becomes ongoing and if you don't cull it substantially,which is what we've been trying to do (never a surprise to me) then,in the absence of further exceptional income, you'd have to revert to profits on player sales.

I'd disagree that Pearson did much damage as Vyds would be one of our better 'RV successes',and Hendrick wanted out. It's pretty clear to me that PC's 15/16 reign did most of the damage. I find it hard to criticise Mel,because on the face of it his idea of employing a top coach,who would improve players and thus their market values appeared sound. All went fairly well in the early days. I distinctly remember a fans' forum where Mel was seated alongside PC. Someone mentioned that Keogh seemed to have improved and Mel put his hand over PC's head,with a finger pointing down. Unfortunately,by the end of his tenure I'd rather suggest that the overall market value of the squad had plummeted,quite the reverse of what had been envisaged.

There's been a lot of debate over PC - my own view is that he was all over the shop,and I wasn't at all surprised when he got the chop.

I see a lot of talk about other clubs spending massively and being accused of ignoring FFP. We aren't the only club assigning RVS,and as I've said before,depending on the profiles of such players,it may only be their wages that are counting against FFP to a large extent.

[cannable]

5 minutes ago, Mr Tibbs said:

Was it a mess?

Yes.

[Kinder]

Looking at the title I thought this would be a chronological run down of my Valentine’s Day evening!

[Mr Tibbs]

17 minutes ago, cannable said:

Yes.

Really?

One of the best squads in the league with plenty of options to manoeuvre in the transfer market. Not in danger of relegation. Not in danger of going bust. 

Chris Coleman's got a mess on his hands, not sure Rowett had. 

[ramblur]

1 hour ago, sage said:

I don't think Rowett is being criticised here. Quite the reverse.

He is doing a good job with the mess he inherited and the frustration is that he can't be fully financially supported until the summer. 

My own view (and I can't be absolutely sure because of the unknown nature of the large hike in admin expenses in 15/16) is that we could start next season (if not promoted) uncomfortably close to the yearly average FFP threshold of £13m even before a ball is kicked. The £31m overall wage bill postedin 15/16 was in itself far in excess of normal income generated,and even if you were to cull this (fairly substantially) to the level whereby it equated to normal income,there would be a host of other expenditure to count against FFP, so my warning is don't expect a spending spree.

I can't second guess Mel,but I wouldn't be surprised if he would support Gary if he came to him looking to spend fairly big on a youngish player,whose value might be expected to increase over time (wages only against FFP scenario). On the other hand it might be a case of 'I've spent enough,you'll have to wheel and deal and,maybe,introduce youth'. Only Mel (and possibly Gary) know the answer to that question. Mel must surely appreciate that Gary is having to unravel a mess not of his own making.