McRainy Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 22 minutes ago, StivePesley said: Seems to have veered wildly off topic from the Rooney Rule It’s all to do with assumptions about different races though, which is precisely what the Rooney rule sets out to counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 15 minutes ago, Lambchop said: Just like all British people do! No they don't, and I take exactly the same stance with them. If anything I view them in a worse light because they have come from families that should have instilled traditional values in them. Unfortunately too many of these people do rely on the immigration argument when really they dont have a leg to stand on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringerBell Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 38 minutes ago, Lambchop said: I just think it’s completely false to blame the immigrants themselves. Who did that? Maybe you shouldn’t view things on such an individualistic level and see things on a systemic level instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scarlet Pimpernel Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: No they don't, and I take exactly the same stance with them. If anything I view them in a worse light because they have come from families that should have instilled traditional values in them. Unfortunately too many of these people do rely on the immigration argument when really they dont have a leg to stand on. Don't bring mobility into this....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 30 minutes ago, StivePesley said: Seems to have veered wildly off topic from the Rooney Rule, but I think the term "uncontrolled immigration" is emotive and at the same time pretty meaningless. Immigration is controlled in various ways, but the fact that people still prefer to use that term when expressing their discontent with certain things says it all really. They usually mean "more tightly controlled than it is currently" I have no issue with immigration. I have an issue with the lack of investment to match the population growth (through all methods - not just immigration). I suspect when people think about it they have the same view - but have been conditioned to think "uncontrolled immigration" is the problem. Not so. If you think that uncontrolled immigration is the really the problem, then would you also support a single-child limit on domestic families where neither parent is in fulltime employment? No I would never support any limit on the number of children people have, however, I would support in any financial aid these families get being limited to one child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 8 hours ago, StivePesley said: Yep -but where's your proof? Whomp! There it is! Out of context. Socialism, in my opinion, would lead to a decrease in the average wealth of the working classes. So does immigration when a population rises 15 million in 25 years. That was my point. If you want to misquote, you can. Your agenda is ******* ******** anyway. Want to argue the financial points of the above? Want to argue the failures of successive governments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 1 hour ago, StivePesley said: I have no issue with immigration. I have an issue with the lack of investment to match the population growth (through all methods - not just immigration). I suspect when people think about it they have the same view - but have been conditioned to think "uncontrolled immigration" is the problem. Not so. Who said it was uncontrolled? And there we have it. A socialist view projected on to a capitalist economy. Do you know why there is a lack of investment? Get back to me when you've had a little think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 22 minutes ago, Norman said: Who said it was uncontrolled? 3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: Now I don't place all of the blame for these situations at the door of immigration but I fail to see how uncontrolled immigration can help get the situation back under control? 50 minutes ago, Norman said: Out of context Not really. It was perfect context to illustrate how people are manipulated into thinking immigration is the problem. The fact you're still trying to argue that you're right is only really making the point clearer. 24 minutes ago, Norman said: Get back to me when you've had a little think. I'll get back to you when you give me anything coherent to think about. "A socialist view projected onto a capitalist economy"?! Huh? Isn't that just called "having an opinion"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 24 minutes ago, Norman said: Who said it was uncontrolled? G String Ram. 24 minutes ago, Norman said: Do you know why there is a lack of investment? Austerity is a deliberate policy to shift power and wealth further into the hands of the elite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 Just now, StivePesley said: Not really. It was perfect context to illustrate how people are manipulated into thinking immigration is the problem. The fact you're still trying to argue that you're right is only really making the point clearer. I'll get back to you when you give me anything coherent to think about. "A socialist view projected onto a capitalist economy"?! Huh? Isn't that just called "having an opinion"? First point, fair enough. I don't have time to read every post. I don't think immigrants are the problem. Not the people themselves. They wouldn't be a problem if one of the world's most advanced economies based on the most successful model (capitalism) could have the infrastructure in place to handle a vastly increasing population. And the ability to finance it. But your socialist views are at odds with the reality. You seem able to grasp that capitalism had various faults. Yet, can't see why those faults would come about from the problems it currently faces. Trust me, I am not manipulated. Do you disagree that an increased population of 15 million in 25 years has seen a decrease in the average wealth of the working classes. And their ability to access services and the quality of those services? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 15 minutes ago, Lambchop said: G String Ram. Austerity is a deliberate policy to shift power and wealth further into the hands of the elite. Too simple. Far too simple. I'm not talking about austerity. I'm talking about the direct consequences of certain government decisons to prop up a model our economy is based on that is coming to the end of its cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRamFan Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 5 minutes ago, Norman said: a decrease in the average wealth of the working classes Think you should read this and the real squeeze is on the middle class: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/mar/07/vanishing-middle-class-london-economy-divide-rich-poor-england Says nothing about immigration. This does: http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/ Immigration does not cause you to wait longer to be seen by a Doctor, it does not necessarily drive down wages in the long term. Facts are out there, just some people can't dig any deeper than the first result they get on Google - news flash there are search engines out there that are not commercially driven... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 22 minutes ago, StivePesley said: Not really. It was perfect context to illustrate how people are manipulated into thinking immigration is the problem. The fact you're still trying to argue that you're right is only really making the point clearer. How do you know you're being manipulated into thinking immigration isn't a problem? What makes your view so much clearer than anyone else's? Explain how services that are already under pressure and facing cuts aren't made worse by immigration. Please also how freedom of movement does not amount to uncontrolled immigration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, Norman said: Too simple. Far too simple. I'm not talking about austerity. I'm talking about the direct consequences of certain government decisons to prop up a model our economy is based on that is coming to the end of its cycle. You say capitalism is the most successful model, and then admit that it’s coming to the end of its cycle. You also cite population growth as the reason for the stall in wages and growth. The problem isn’t the number of people, it’s the fact that 80% of the country’s wealth is syphoned off by 1% of the population. That is the outcome of the neoliberal model of capitalism, with aggressively deregulated markets. Without the retraining power of social democracy, capitalism inevitably leads to a kleptocratic oligarchy, which is what we have now. I agree it’s at the end of its cycle, it’s unsustainable, but that has nothing to do with immigration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 1 minute ago, McRamFan said: Think you should read this and the real squeeze is on the middle class: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/mar/07/vanishing-middle-class-london-economy-divide-rich-poor-england Says nothing about immigration. This does: Immigration does not cause you to wait longer to be seen by a Doctor, it does not necessarily drive down wages in the long term. Facts are out there, just some people can't dig any deeper than the first result they get on Google - news flash there are search engines out there that are not commercially driven... I dont care about the biggest squeeze. I'm talking about working classes. Not which one is getting poorer, quicker. Second link actually states the biggest impact on immigrants is on the lowest paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 4 minutes ago, Lambchop said: You say capitalism is the most successful model, and then admit that it’s coming to the end of its cycle. You also cite population growth as the reason for the stall in wages and growth. The problem isn’t the number of people, it’s the fact that 80% of the country’s wealth is syphoned off by 1% of the population. That is the outcome of the neoliberal model of capitalism, with aggressively deregulated markets. Without the retraining power of social democracy, capitalism inevitably leads to a kleptocratic oligarchy, which is what we have now. I agree it’s at the end of its cycle, it’s unsustainable, but that has nothing to do with immigration. It has been the most successful model. Fact. You list the problems of capitalism, but then say the problem isn't population. The problems of capitalism has a direct consequence on a quickly increasing popualtion. Are you sure you haven't been manipulated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRainy Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, Norman said: It has been the most successful model. Fact. For a small minority of people, if you are measuring it in economic terms. Broaden your view and it is also the most destructive model, causing perpetual war, the degradation of the environment and leaving half the world starving 2 minutes ago, Norman said: You list the problems of capitalism, but then say the problem isn't population. Exactly. 2 minutes ago, Norman said: The problems of capitalism has a direct consequence on a quickly increasing popualtion. It has a direct consequence on everybody... 2 minutes ago, Norman said: Are you sure you haven't been manipulated? I’ll manipulate myself, thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 38 minutes ago, Lambchop said: G String Ram How you down as a student, but university rather than primary school... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRamFan Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 14 minutes ago, Norman said: Second link actually states the biggest impact on immigrants is on the lowest paid. Try reading the whole article and the others that are there. It isn't a fact just because you have read to the point you want too. Immigration built this country, built its roads, rail, hospitals and utilities such as dams and power stations. Capitalism is a failed model, just look at Carillion, got greedy, focused on profits and utterly failed, now the workers are worried about the pensions, the shareholders have lost investments, however in this great capitalist world the thieves that ran it, walk away with the bonus and fat pay packets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 9 minutes ago, Lambchop said: For a small minority of people, if you are measuring it in economic terms. Broaden your view and it is also the most destructive model, causing perpetual war, the degradation of the environment and leaving half the world starving Exactly. It has a direct consequence on everybody... I’ll manipulate myself, thank you very much. Was I defending capitalism? Or was I stating something you are uncomfortable with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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