Barnsley v Derby County

[Carl Sagan]

4 hours ago, Norman said:

They run a mile, tops,  with 11 minutes of average game time.

We rested players so they don't run 10km on what might have been a heavy pitch. Football is small margins, and i think we have one for the weekend. And I really want to get out of this league.

 

4 hours ago, Angry Ram said:

You missed my point.. Never mind.

I read it as a good response to your post so I must have missed the point too. It seems to me the club is being completely ruthless, prioritizing the Championship, success in which in financial terms is worth a thousand times more than the league Cup.

We save our big guns for the Championship because winning in that is everything. We get the backups fitter with some game time so they will be better placed to step in if needed, again because winning in the Championship is everything. 

In past seasons we've changed a few players but not everyone, partly because "the fans have paid good money and we mustn't short-change them". I take this as a sign of a new professionalism and feel it should be welcomed. I'm disappointed not to have gone through but the game served its purpose and the team we put out looked decent on paper and was winning the tie until fairly late on.

[Angry Ram]

4 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

 

I read it as a good response to your post so I must have missed the point too. It seems to me the club is being completely ruthless, prioritizing the Championship, success in which in financial terms is worth a thousand times more than the league Cup.

We save our big guns for the Championship because winning in that is everything. We get the backups fitter with some game time so they will be better placed to step in if needed, again because winning in the Championship is everything. 

In past seasons we've changed a few players but not everyone, partly because "the fans have paid good money and we mustn't short-change them". I take this as a sign of a new professionalism and feel it should be welcomed. I'm disappointed not to have gone through but the game served its purpose and the team we put out looked decent on paper and was winning the tie until fairly late on.

My point was about being ruthless. He banged on about yards and minutes when I had already said the NFL was not a great example. So yes, missed the point  

Okay you have made a comment regarding ruthlessness which is fine. I get your point don't necessarily agree with all of it but your idea of professionalism is different to mine. A professional sporting organisation should be 100%, 100% of the time. 

 

[Gritstone Ram]

I'm not really bothered that we're out of the cup. I'm pleased George Thorne came through ok. May be putting a debutant by the side of him was a good test too for both players. For Bird it would have been great. I loved to play along side good players they raise your game naturally. 

As for Gary putting out a full strength squad,  I think squad is the word. If we are ever going to have a good squad these players need experience to be able to come into the team. You only get that through playing first team football. 

My view is although I don't like losing any match he did the right thing.

[Norman]

7 hours ago, Angry Ram said:

My point was about being ruthless. He banged on about yards and minutes when I had already said the NFL was not a great example. So yes, missed the point  

Okay you have made a comment regarding ruthlessness which is fine. I get your point don't necessarily agree with all of it but your idea of professionalism is different to mine. A professional sporting organisation should be 100%, 100% of the time. 

 

You cant be 100% all the time in this league though. You're taking a mentality argument and dismissing the physical aspects. 

Federer missed the French Open to win Wimbledon.

We can't win the League Cup realistically. Even if we did its worth nothing financially. So why risk 100% physical ruthlessness for some mental philosophy no other club in this country adheres to.

I didnt miss the point, you missed mine.

[Angry Ram]

3 hours ago, Norman said:

You cant be 100% all the time in this league though. You're taking a mentality argument and dismissing the physical aspects. 

Federer missed the French Open to win Wimbledon.

We can't win the League Cup realistically. Even if we did its worth nothing financially. So why risk 100% physical ruthlessness for some mental philosophy no other club in this country adheres to.

I didnt miss the point, you missed mine.

Not really but I have lost the will to live now. 

[Pearl Ram]

20 hours ago, ramblur said:

Not so sure about that,think it was more a case of building (match) fitness levels of fringe players ,in case any have to step in over the next few games,and also to have a look at a couple of youngsters.To any who suggested that Gary didn't care about the result,he looked pretty gutted to me and probably disappointed he wasn't afforded another chance to build match fitness/have another look at youngsters (as I've no doubt that's what would have happened).

In Cloughie's time you could probably get away with putting players out carrying knocks,not so easy with the pace of today's game,and the closing down required.Terry Hennessey always seemed a bit bitter about being asked to turn out,when carrying what was probably a bit more than a knock (in fact I think he blamed Cloughie for a premature end to his career-knee problems from what I remember).

Sorry for the delay in getting back, work, wife and other irritations. 

I think we'll be at friendly loggerheads on this issue because I will always believe Rowett made far too many changes for this game.

You believe it was case of building match fitness, isn't that what under 21 games are for ? I mean, now we have no opportunity to play these fringe/reserve/squad (whatever you want to call them) until the FA Cup. 

Say we go from now until early December with no injuries to Davis and Keogh and their form is good, any match fitness  Shackell and Pearce got against Barnsley will have long gone.

Rowett could still have looked at a couple of youngsters while keeping Carson, Keogh, Davis and Vydra in the team thus, I believe giving us a better chance of winning the game.

Bristol City were at Wolves on the same night, do we suppose they rested their big match players because they've got Derby County four days later ?

I really believe two games a week is not asking too much of players these days and by changing too many for the Barnsley game Rowett made a tactical error.

At the end of the day ( it'll be 23:59 ) only kidding, it's gone, to be forgotten and moved on from but I can't help think he blew the opportunity to progress in this tie, Tottenham won't be putting out a strong team in the next round but us playing our strongest against them would have been a more useful measure of our progress than giving back up players a one off opportunity as it turned out...in my opinion. 

[ramblur]

18 minutes ago, EastHertsRam said:

Sorry for the delay in getting back, work, wife and other irritations. 

I think we'll be at friendly loggerheads on this issue because I will always believe Rowett made far too many changes for this game.

You believe it was case of building match fitness, isn't that what under 21 games are for ? I mean, now we have no opportunity to play these fringe/reserve/squad (whatever you want to call them) until the FA Cup. 

Say we go from now until early December with no injuries to Davis and Keogh and their form is good, any match fitness  Shackell and Pearce got against Barnsley will have long gone.

Rowett could still have looked at a couple of youngsters while keeping Carson, Keogh, Davis and Vydra in the team thus, I believe giving us a better chance of winning the game.

Bristol City were at Wolves on the same night, do we suppose they rested their big match players because they've got Derby County four days later ?

I really believe two games a week is not asking too much of players these days and by changing too many for the Barnsley game Rowett made a tactical error.

At the end of the day ( it'll be 23:59 ) only kidding, it's gone, to be forgotten and moved on from but I can't help think he blew the opportunity to progress in this tie, Tottenham won't be putting out a strong team in the next round but us playing our strongest against them would have been a more useful measure of our progress than giving back up players a one off opportunity as it turned out...in my opinion. 

Staying at friendly loggerheads,we could get an injury/injuries on Saturday and 1 or 2 could be called on.If you're preparing for the eventuality of an appearance in the Championship,then playing against a Championship side in the cup gives more meaningful match fitness than an U23 appearance.Also,seniors appearing with the U23s means that places of youngsters will be taken.

Some might say it'd be a good thing for this to happen,as we might win games to keep us up.To me,if we were to be relegated it would (perversely) show that the Academy is doing well,as youngsters would have stepped up,either on loan or to first team squad.If our Academy is strong enough overall, then we should soon get promoted again.To put it another way,the aim of the Academy should be to produce players,rather than avoid relegation.If we can do both,then fine.

Do we think Bristol City would have rested players to face the mighty Derby,when they were playing those weaklings Wolves on the same night?

[Ken Tram]

I'm going to be doom and gloom. 

Our formbook says that when we play a weakened side in a cup game, it has been followed by poor form in the league.

I hope that we buck that trend. 

[Thierry Ennui]

16 minutes ago, Ken Tram said:

I'm going to be doom and gloom. 

Our formbook says that when we play a weakened side in a cup game, it has been followed by poor form in the league.

I hope that we buck that trend. 

It wasn't a weakened side, it was a different side. Eleven changes means that the team playing tomorrow aren't following a loss, they're following a win.

[richinspain]

I haven't read the whole of the thread but I have seen a few say that amongst others Davis should have played. Didn't he pick up a knock against Hull?

[archied]

I hate us losing any game but my opinion is that rowett will measure himself on getting Derby in the prem and keeping them there and as such will ver much priorities league games , I can live with that

[RamNut]

On 10 September 2017 at 13:13, RamNut said:

Wolves was a low point. We really didn't cope with their wing backs. We were well beaten

Sheff united  was a strange one - i've watched the first half. We didn't lose the game in the first 20 minutes as people were quoted as saying. The second goal was @ the 39th minute for a start. In the first 45 sheffield united were possibly more long ball than Derby, but they pressed at bit more. As the game progressed they displayed more energy. We looked reasonably solid but we were a bit inclined to ball watch and concede possession. I'd say that sheff united made their own luck. We didn't create alot but we were not playing badly.

v hull - we did to hull what sheff united did to us. We pressed more. Forced errors and free kicks. We made our own luck by working harder. I'm not sure that there was as much long ball, or even an undue emphasis on counter attacking. We got it forward quickly but then played with sharp incisive passing and we were pressing high up the pitch. We began to sit back in the second half - similar to Brammall lane - and that was when hull got 4 of their 6 reasonable chances.

So are we heading in the right direction? Possibly. 

we shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking low possession is good though. 

the harder we work, the better we are. We must regret letting bryson go.

I spent today watching the barnsley match as part of the build up to bristol.

It was interesting.

First half, after a good start we became scrappy, unable to retain possession and  began reverting to long ball. And that was after two good moves and two beautiful goals. Russell could easily have scored two more. But much of the good football thereafter came from Barnsley. Brad Potts and co were superb in the middle for a while, and it highlighted our lack of an orthodox central midfield. I know we had George and tweety pie in there, but the point i am making is that with 4231 the midfield players are either defensive or attacking. There are no orthodox central midfielders. we can sometimes see a fault open up between the 2 and the 3 which then becomes a big problem.

Second half they actually seemed to fade and we looked more comfortable, but after 75 minutes we stood off, sat back and conceeded possession. The equaliser was fair in the context of the overall game. The winner was a bit hard on us, but the match reinforced some of my fears about our tactics.

Possession has become a dirty work recently. But the good sides retain possession. And the best sides - you can't get the ball off them. Of course you have to be able to do something with the ball when you've got it. And that increasingly became the problem for us after 2013-14. It was evident at wembley that we lacked the necessary cutting edge and creativity in the final third.however i still think it was better to have controlled the game and failed, than to lack the ability to control the midfield in the first place.

So for me, the key word is perhaps 'control' rather than 'possession', and the midfield is key. The best sides control the game and dominate possession. Sitting back and hoping to land a sucker punch is the hallmark of the underdog.

our inclination (?) or our tactic (?)  seems to be to drop off and stay compact like a boxer hiding behind his guard. But we give up control; we concede possession, and do we also stop pressing in order to stay compact? The failure to press on the third goal, could be a consequence of defending the space and staying compact.  The unresolved question is whether that inclination to go into our shell is a deliberate gary-tactic, or whether its the fault of timid or tired players. 

Whatever - Its a sign of weakness to me. It was why we lost control of the midfield and conceded the two goals after 75 minutes in this game.