WhiteHorseRam Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 To be honest, I think we have to perhaps stop stressing/thinking about promotion this season. Having Steve back bringing the exciting attacking style back and mid-table respectability, plus a generous committed owner with a highly effective CEO, its gonna have to be enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamsPolls Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 2 minutes ago, toddy said: Because we are sitting 20th in the league, We're unbeaten in 4... We've turned it around since NP Left. we're not going to jump straight up to the top 6 because we've changed a manager. Dear me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostyn6 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 4 minutes ago, toddy said: Because we are sitting 20th in the league, emphasis on the word 'sitting'. It doesn't have the same meaning as "finished". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrm14 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 12 minutes ago, RamsPolls said: Not a chance were they as bad as the Pearson era. They were alot faster tempo, We had alot more possession. We carved a few chance out but didn't take them. This team is in the top 6 squads in the league. How you can say its not quite good enough is beyond me. It's like people go to the game with their eyes closed. The performances in the Pearson era were miles worse than anything we've seen in the first halves of both Leeds and Brentford. We've got a great squad as you say. Give Mac time to repair the damage Pearson has done and rebuild the confidence of the players then we'll be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted October 20, 2016 Author Share Posted October 20, 2016 25 minutes ago, RamsPolls said: We're unbeaten in 4... We've turned it around since NP Left. we're not going to jump straight up to the top 6 because we've changed a manager. Dear me. We were sitting 20th when Pearson left and we are currently 20th. Mac came in and we got the bump, but we rode our luck against a good Leeds side, the performance was dire 1st half and we got better 2nd. Against Brentford again the 1st half was forgettable but again improved 2nd half. I do fear if we turn up at Huddersfield like we did against Leeds and Brentford, we could get a hiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamsPolls Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 9 minutes ago, toddy said: We were sitting 20th when Pearson left and we are currently 20th. Mac came in and we got the bump, but we rode our luck against a good Leeds side, the performance was dire 1st half and we got better 2nd. Against Brentford again the 1st half was forgettable but again improved 2nd half. I do fear if we turn up at Huddersfield like we did against Leeds and Brentford, we could get a hiding. Clearly aren't watching games that I am. performances improved massively in the Leeds and Brentford games. Admittedly we rode our luck against Leeds. Huddersfield aren't anything special. They won't finish top 6 come may. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 1 hour ago, toddy said: We were sitting 20th when Pearson left and we are currently 20th. Oh give over, could you have realistic asked for more after he left ? 8 points out of 12 is a cracking rate at any point in the season, nevermind after a catastrophic slump in form and confidence. 1 hour ago, toddy said: Mac came in and we got the bump, but we rode our luck against a good Leeds side, the performance was dire 1st half and we got better 2nd. Against Brentford again the 1st half was forgettable but again improved 2nd half. Mac got the bump ? He's literally been in the door a week and has had to prepare for two games against tricky opposition in this time. The performances these past two games are a marked improvement on anything Pearson served up, we actually look like we can take control of games, we look like there is a semblance of tactics, we look like we have an actual pattern of play and players (for the most part) look like they know what is asked of them. Have the performances been those of a promotion chasing side ? No but they've stopped being the performances of a side looking like being relegated. At the moment we look good in the first two thirds of the pitch and it's just a case of getting it clicking in that final third, which I suspect will happen after Mac's had time to coach the front three. It's going to take time to undo the damage Pearson has done but visible progress has already taken place 1 hour ago, toddy said: I do fear if we turn up at Huddersfield like we did against Leeds and Brentford, we could get a hiding. I suspect if we turn up at Huddersfield like we did against Leeds and Brentford, we will have a very tight game and probably little chances either way. My suspicion is that Huddersfield will probably shade it or it will end in a draw but that won't be the end of the world. They are a good side and we are currently still trying to find our feet again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted October 20, 2016 Author Share Posted October 20, 2016 2 hours ago, brady1993 said: Oh give over, could you have realistic asked for more after he left ? 8 points out of 12 is a cracking rate at any point in the season, nevermind after a catastrophic slump in form and confidence. Mac got the bump ? He's literally been in the door a week and has had to prepare for two games against tricky opposition in this time. The performances these past two games are a marked improvement on anything Pearson served up, we actually look like we can take control of games, we look like there is a semblance of tactics, we look like we have an actual pattern of play and players (for the most part) look like they know what is asked of them. Have the performances been those of a promotion chasing side ? No but they've stopped being the performances of a side looking like being relegated. At the moment we look good in the first two thirds of the pitch and it's just a case of getting it clicking in that final third, which I suspect will happen after Mac's had time to coach the front three. It's going to take time to undo the damage Pearson has done........ I suspect if we turn up at Huddersfield like we did against Leeds and Brentford, we will have a very tight game and probably little chances either way. My suspicion is that Huddersfield will probably shade it or it will end in a draw but that won't be the end of the world. They are a good side and we are currently still trying to find our feet again. What damage? Ok, go with bad formations, changing to a different system but did Pearson really take the inability of all our midfielders to be able pass a ball? The issues within the group of players was there before Pearson's tenure it started from 26th Dec under Clement and again under Wassall and continued into Pearson. The question was confidence, if but its is a lack of, does it really go on for 10th months, because the alternative is that these players are not quite as good as you think they actually are. I suspect theer will be an exodus of players in January and next summer and a rebuild necessary for Mac to get in players that will work with what he wants to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 On 19/10/2016 at 14:23, duncanjwitham said: We just need a better balance in the forward line. Every forward we have (including wingers) are either hanging on the last man looking for balls in behind, or waiting for the ball to come to them so they can run at defenders. There's nobody dropping off to link play or holding up the ball. So they're all pushing up far too much and we're getting a big gap between the midfield and the forwards, and the forwards are getting isolated and we're not getting them the service. We just need to get someone in that can drop off and hold the ball up - whether that's Martin back in January, or someone else. And until that happens, we're just going to have to muddle through with the mess that Pearson has left behind. I think you're spot on here @duncanjwitham. My hope is that Vydra can adapt to the role, or we really are stuck till january. The combination of Pearson loaning Martin out and not bringing in an adequate replacement is one of the stupidest management decisions I've ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 9 minutes ago, toddy said: What damage? Ok, go with bad formations, changing to a different system but did Pearson really take the inability of all our midfielders to be able pass a ball? The issues within the group of players was there before Pearson's tenure it started from 26th Dec under Clement and again under Wassall and continued into Pearson. Pearson has certainly left us without a single forward that can hold up the ball, and we're short of a holding midfielder that can move the ball well enough and quickly enough (Johnson has done a decent job there for the last 4 games, but he's nowhere near as good as Thorne is). Those are by far the 2 biggest issues with the squad at the moment, and they're entirely Pearson's fault. The midfielders inability to pass a ball isn't entirely the midfielders fault, they have to have someone to pass to, and the forwards are all pushing on far too much (because of the type of player they are) making the passes more difficult. With Martin under McClaren, it was a 10 yard pass into Martin's feet, make a run and then get it back and go again. Now, it's having to be an inch-perfect 30 yard through ball to Vydra, or he doesn't get a kick all game. You say the issues started under Clement, and yes some of them did, but they are all tactical, not confidence or ability related IMO - Clement always had us sitting far too deep and let the forwards get isolated. We didn't play well all season, and the string of narrow wins we put together didn't paper over that for me. More or less as soon as Wassall came in, we started moving the ball more quickly and getting it into the forwards feet and the play improved. There were still issues and we never reached the heights we did under McClaren, but we were certainly far closer to it than under Clement. Then Pearson comes in and goes back to sitting deep with isolated forwards and we struggled again. It will take McClaren some time (and a transfer window) to get things working again because we don't have the players to play like we did before, and I don't believe we have the players to put together any sort of sensible system at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 @toddy I want to address all of the points in your post but excuse me if I address them out of order because I feel it will make more logical sense. 12 minutes ago, toddy said: The issues within the group of players was there before Pearson's tenure it started from 26th Dec under Clement and again under Wassall and continued into Pearson. The question was confidence, if but its is a lack of, does it really go on for 10th months, because the alternative is that these players are not quite as good as you think they actually are Your right there were issues before Pearson's tenure and you're right about when they reared up. Performances from the 2nd half of last season as a whole probably weren't good enough for a promotion chasing side. However they were good enough to keep us in the playoffs and they were dramatically worse under Pearson. If we were accumulating points and scoring at slightly lower rate than last season, I think you would really have a point but it just simply isn't true. Maybe some of the players aren't as a good as I think they are but I know for a fact they are better than they demonstrated under Pearson. 32 minutes ago, toddy said: What damage? Ooook this is the doozy the three biggest reasons are: 1) Tried to shoe horn players into roles that they were unsuitable for and visibly uncomfortable in playing, roles which didn't play to their strengths and actively exposed their weaknesses. Prime example being Craig Bryson. A midfielder who plays his best when he has license to go join in with the forwards in attack and license to press high in defence. He was asked to sit just a few yards in front of the defense and hold his positions completing negating his best assets. Things like this go along way to demoralise your playing staff. 2) Trying to shoehorn a squad largely built around playing a possession orientated, high tempo and high pressing game to play a defensive 'sit back and counter' game. This left the squad demoralised at a playing style they were unsuitable for as a squad. In turn this means they haven't been coached in a way to get the most out them for months, essentially we are starting the season months behind everyone else in terms of training. This is best demonstrated by how the majority of players were knackered towards the end of the leeds game and by how there isn't that connection between the front line yet. 3) Loaning out Martin and not replacing him. This was the single worst decision Pearson made, this error is the one has caused the most damage to our chances of success this season. We critically lack any forward who wants/is capable of linking the play between the midfield and forward line. This element is crucial in every single successful goddamn footballing system that exists because otherwise you end up with what we face now, very little to tie the midfield and forward line together. All of our forwards (strikers and wingers) solely want to get in behind and be the recipient of the final ball, this means our frontline is incredibly unbalanced and requires the midfield to pull off wonder balls to create chances. 53 minutes ago, toddy said: Ok, go with bad formations, changing to a different system but did Pearson really take the inability of all our midfielders to be able pass a ball? All of our midfielders (bar Johnson) are still 80%+ for pass accuracy and out of these accurate passes 60% are forwards. So this isn't really true. 55 minutes ago, toddy said: I suspect theer will be an exodus of players in January and next summer and a rebuild necessary for Mac to get in players that will work with what he wants to do. This I agree with. We have a lot of deadweight in the squad that needs to be shifted (Bent, Camara, Blackman, Wiemann and Baird all immediately spring to mind) and we require better playing staff in key areas (We at least need a centre forward with top draw link up play, a better right back than Christie and a top quality inside forward) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Carson - ok christie - ok. I'm more positive about christie than many people on here. His defending has improved. He is quick and has good physique, not easily knocked off the ball. Good going forward, but then delivers an abysmal final ball 5 times out of 6. Surely someone can solve that? Preferrably him. Forsyth - see Christie olsson - see christie (but lacks the physique) keogh - looks like the village idiot, and does cock things up occasionally, but still our best defender shackell - i like shackell, and i'm not worried about his distribution. I think the defenders were under instruction to hoof it by Pearson. However, he is maybe starting to look a bit over-the-hill. pearce - doing ok. Played quite well v brentford but his distribution is no better than shackell's imo. Johnson - strange player. Was a beast when he came but became really erratic. that stupid little bun on his head gets on my wick. I can image cloughie snr getting john barrington to cut that off. Doing a job at the moment. butterfield - drives me crackers. Great feet. A potential Hughesy, but goes from being a favourite player to a midfield crab with absolutely no forward gear in the space of two games. Not defensive enough to be a holding midfield player, and maybe not attacking enough to be an attacking midfielder player. The jury is out. hughes - good player with the potential to deliver the final ball. Personally i'd make him captain. bryson - seems to be a bit inconsistent. Came back with a bang last season. Was crap v brentford. Anya - right footed dwarf playing on the left. therefore has a tendency to drift infield instead of going round the outside. When he does does go around the outside he's dangerous. Not bad. russell - workaholic, high tempo player; always brings energy and enthusiasm which lifts the team. Doesn't score enough goals but he is 100% Ram. ince - left footed, one-trick flea, playing on the right. Wants to drift inside instead of getting to the bye-line - see anya. We paid way over the odds and therefore created a false expectation of genius. A long run in the team might help his confidence. Ultimately he probably isn't the answer but we probably should persevere for now. Vydra - looks quite good to me. Fast, mobile, energetic, hard working. Lacks height and physique so probably needs it to feet. Drops off and joins in to good effect. Wait and see. martin - still a Ram. Personally i wouldn't give up on him, but its a huge call now to chose between him and vydra. thorne - i worry that terry hennessey has got better knees than george. I hope if there was any latent problem with his knees that we would have got it sorted whilst he recovers from his broken leg. Would love to see the rumbustuous, dominant, G-force back in the saddle. But nagging doubts remain about his ability to recover from all the injuries. camara - whats happened to him? Can be direct. Dunno. Not sure. Probably will struggle to get priority over the others competing for the wide attacking positions. blackman - i'd prefer to see him given a chance up front in preference to bent. He looks to get a shot off at every opportunity. Has the physique and the pace to be threat. Misses the target more often than not. Bent - no offence but i just can't see the point. baird - see Bent We are what we are. A good set of players but a mixed bag. Good on our day. Good recruitment - as ever - is the key to any successful managerial reign. In the meantime i'd swap anya and ince onto opposite flanks. Tell both to take on the full back 9 times out of 10. And try to create some goal threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Err ram io Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 2 hours ago, brady1993 said: @toddy I want to address all of the points in your post but excuse me if I address them out of order because I feel it will make more logical sense. Your right there were issues before Pearson's tenure and you're right about when they reared up. Performances from the 2nd half of last season as a whole probably weren't good enough for a promotion chasing side. However they were good enough to keep us in the playoffs and they were dramatically worse under Pearson. If we were accumulating points and scoring at slightly lower rate than last season, I think you would really have a point but it just simply isn't true. Maybe some of the players aren't as a good as I think they are but I know for a fact they are better than they demonstrated under Pearson. Ooook this is the doozy the three biggest reasons are: 1) Tried to shoe horn players into roles that they were unsuitable for and visibly uncomfortable in playing, roles which didn't play to their strengths and actively exposed their weaknesses. Prime example being Craig Bryson. A midfielder who plays his best when he has license to go join in with the forwards in attack and license to press high in defence. He was asked to sit just a few yards in front of the defense and hold his positions completing negating his best assets. Things like this go along way to demoralise your playing staff. 2) Trying to shoehorn a squad largely built around playing a possession orientated, high tempo and high pressing game to play a defensive 'sit back and counter' game. This left the squad demoralised at a playing style they were unsuitable for as a squad. In turn this means they haven't been coached in a way to get the most out them for months, essentially we are starting the season months behind everyone else in terms of training. This is best demonstrated by how the majority of players were knackered towards the end of the leeds game and by how there isn't that connection between the front line yet. 3) Loaning out Martin and not replacing him. This was the single worst decision Pearson made, this error is the one has caused the most damage to our chances of success this season. We critically lack any forward who wants/is capable of linking the play between the midfield and forward line. This element is crucial in every single successful goddamn footballing system that exists because otherwise you end up with what we face now, very little to tie the midfield and forward line together. All of our forwards (strikers and wingers) solely want to get in behind and be the recipient of the final ball, this means our frontline is incredibly unbalanced and requires the midfield to pull off wonder balls to create chances. All of our midfielders (bar Johnson) are still 80%+ for pass accuracy and out of these accurate passes 60% are forwards. So this isn't really true. This I agree with. We have a lot of deadweight in the squad that needs to be shifted (Bent, Camara, Blackman, Wiemann and Baird all immediately spring to mind) and we require better playing staff in key areas (We at least need a centre forward with top draw link up play, a better right back than Christie and a top quality inside forward) I know that Chris Martin is getting a lot of column inches on this website, and I have no idea how the SM CM personal man management axis would go, but if we are serious about wanting to play the high tempo passing game involving a centre forward with good link up play shouldn't we try to get two such players. I mean if we only get one isn't it most likely he will get injured, so a second decent CF is needed... This brings me to my next point where might we get such a player from? We can forget any championship rivals, or even premier league teams... so does that mean we are looking overseas....It is easy to imagine that SM might have better international connections than NP. So are we looking at signing a Dutch CF? It's an interesting thought to fuse "the Derby Way" with "Total Football" you might get..."the total Derby football Way" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadioactiveWaste Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Evolution hand in hand with recovering form and confidence. This squad with form and confidence would be plenty, but I do worry that some evolution of the squad will be necessary to restore the belief, just relying on 13/14 players with newer players filling in the gaps won't be enough. Recruitment wise, we've not been the best and paid well over the odds, but we haven't brought bad players. Gelling the ones who are the future and gradually managing out the ones who aren't (Darren, Chris, Nick) over the next few months. In January, new RB is the only only real priority, perhaps slimming a few out and having an idea about who we are going to be going forwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
needles Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 On 19 October 2016 at 07:37, sage said: For the system to work we need players who can pass and pass quickly. It will take at least 2 transfer windows to get the players in we need and maybe more to get rid of the players we don't need. That's the problem, we've bought players who aren't good enough, and we've paid through the nose to get them. Now all that needs un-doing, and better players (or players more suited to our style) need to come in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 17 hours ago, Err ram io said: I know that Chris Martin is getting a lot of column inches on this website, and I have no idea how the SM CM personal man management axis would go, but if we are serious about wanting to play the high tempo passing game involving a centre forward with good link up play shouldn't we try to get two such players. I mean if we only get one isn't it most likely he will get injured, so a second decent CF is needed... This brings me to my next point where might we get such a player from? We can forget any championship rivals, or even premier league teams... so does that mean we are looking overseas....It is easy to imagine that SM might have better international connections than NP. So are we looking at signing a Dutch CF? It's an interesting thought to fuse "the Derby Way" with "Total Football" you might get..."the total Derby football Way" You're absolutely right, this has been a big problem over the last three years in that we didn't have proper cover for Martin. Just right now, I'd settle for one player who can do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted October 21, 2016 Author Share Posted October 21, 2016 13 minutes ago, brady1993 said: You're absolutely right, this has been a big problem over the last three years in that we didn't have proper cover for Martin. Just right now, I'd settle for one player who can do it. I think you find Bent did a job while on loan.........then we signed him and it went down hill from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 6 minutes ago, toddy said: I think you find Bent did a job while on loan.........then we signed him and it went down hill from there. ehh personally I'm on the side that he wasn't the best cover even when he came on loan but that argument has been thrashed out times many and is a little pointless going over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I bought into the idea of consistent styles being used in the squads throughout the club. I hope very much that whilst Steve is rehabilitating the first team that he brings along the coaches of the development squads so that as well as buying we can genuinely grow our own, in the knowledge that we're growing players through coaching to have the attributes that the first team needs. A criticism of mcclaren from last time was his use of the kids and perceived level of interest in the academy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted October 22, 2016 Author Share Posted October 22, 2016 To be fair to Mac, the kids might not good enough or ready for first team football at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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