Confidence issue or a rebuild required?

[toddy]

Ok, Mac has come in and some thought things would change [I did].

We have had 3 games since Pearson was removed, the performances have not really improved, the results well a win against Leeds and a draws against Reading and Brentford so sort of improved. [ It is bad when I class getting draws against Reading and Brentford as improvements]

Mac had his new manager  bounce and got a result against Leeds, but the performance wasn't great. Again last night we continued were we left off with Leeds we do look very average at the moment and promotion looks as likely now as it did under Nigel Clough.

I still hoping its a confidence issue rather than the alternative.

Do you think its a lack confidence within the squad?

 

[Mihangel]

Outside of the new manager bounce, he's really only going to have had 2 or 3 sessions to change things, there's only so much you can do over that amount of time. You're really not going to be able to change the style and philosophy of a squad.  I wouldn't get too concerned about things and 4 games unbeaten, that's not to be sniffed at.

[Woodley Ram]

A little of both, there is a causal link between the two,  we need to give vydra support up front and deal with attack from midfield, happy with most of the team just a few tweaks. 

This is not a reflection on the players but the system. We have some excellent players but it's about the team dynamic 

[sage]

For the system to work we need players who can pass and pass quickly. It will take at least 2 transfer windows to get the players in we need and maybe more to get rid of the players we don't need.

[Mostyn6]

if you think performances haven't improved, you either wasn't watching properly before, or you aren't watching properly now. Or both!

You're clearly just focussing on the score line.

[Woodley Ram]

1 minute ago, sage said:

For the system to work we need players who can pass and pass quickly. It will take at least 2 transfer windows to get the players in we need and maybe more to get rid of the players we don't need.

It's good we can disagree, I take your point but think it can be done in the Jan window,valid point though 

[sage]

1 minute ago, Woodley Ram said:

It's good we can disagree, I take your point but think it can be done in the Jan window,valid point though 

Which players that are currently fit (not Forsyth) would fit the way we played in 13/14/early 14/15? and which players wouldn't? 

[Alph]

He's been here less than a week and had 2 games. 

Think we've had 4 games without Pearson and it's

P4 W2 D2 L0 GF4 GA1 PTS8 

Got our first home win of the season too. 

McClaren was unfortunately never coming in with a time machine. Gone are Hendrick, Martin, Dawkins, Ward, Grant, Buxton and Eustace.Thorne and Forsyth are injured. 

It's firstly going to take time to get across the shape and the temp and the instinct. And he's going to need a transfer window to bring in his own people. 

[Woodley Ram]

1 minute ago, sage said:

Which players that are currently fit (not Forsyth) would fit the way we played in 13/14/early 14/15? and which players wouldn't? 

A good challenge Sage. There is probably a reason why I am not a football manager ( in fact there a a few reasons why I am not a lot of things) 

change a midfielder ( not Hughes) for a more attacking/ driving one and replace one of the wingers for a big athletic forward who can unsettle defences and feed vydra 

[BathRam72]

19 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

if you think performances haven't improved, you either wasn't watching properly before, or you aren't watching properly now. Or both!

You're clearly just focussing on the score line.

I am sorry, while last night was a slight improvement, it was still dire

[Alph]

Mac has had Thursday, Friday, Sunday and Monday to prepare for 2 games and a recovery day. 

[Mostyn6]

2 minutes ago, BathRam72 said:

I am sorry, while last night was a slight improvement, it was still dire

was it? or was it just lacking the final pass and touch?

Last night, AND against Leeds, were a quantum leap from the nothingness displayed in the Pearson 'era'.

Whilst it's advisable to forget what happened during the Pearson 'era', it's not fair to overlook it when judging the progress already made.

Lots of forward passes, with intent, positive wing play, daring/adventurous passes, players taking on a man with skill. 

Gone are the meaningless passes between CBs. Gone is the sitting back and allowing the other team the impetus.

You, and anyone not seeing what's changing is very ignorant. 

We were some poor decisions away from potentially hammering them last night. If we work on Christie, Anya and Ince deciding when to take a touch and when to make the pass, we will become very dangerous very quickly as that is what is holding us back.

Butterfield will become pivotal once the players adapt their runs and time the release of the ball.

Small tweaks now.

[BathRam72]

1 minute ago, Mostyn6 said:

was it? or was it just lacking the final pass and touch?

Last night, AND against Leeds, were a quantum leap from the nothingness displayed in the Pearson 'era'.

Whilst it's advisable to forget what happened during the Pearson 'era', it's not fair to overlook it when judging the progress already made.

Lots of forward passes, with intent, positive wing play, daring/adventurous passes, players taking on a man with skill. 

Gone are the meaningless passes between CBs. Gone is the sitting back and allowing the other team the impetus.

You, and anyone not seeing what's changing is very ignorant. 

We were some poor decisions away from potentially hammering them last night. If we work on Christie, Anya and Ince deciding when to take a touch and when to make the pass, we will become very dangerous very quickly as that is what is holding us back.

Butterfield will become pivotal once the players adapt their runs and time the release of the ball.

Small tweaks now.

Ok we are all entitled to our opinions and while I concede that Mac has only had a few training sessions to sort things out (I am a fan by the way, very pleased to see him back).

I AM FAR FROM IGNORANT.

Entitled to an opinion and yes it was dire Ignorant NO!!!!

 

[ronnieronalde]

2 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Mac has had Thursday, Friday, Sunday and Monday to prepare for 2 games and a recovery day. 

Yet according to the majority on here it took him less than 15 minutes to transform the entire club last time around with his half time team talk v Ipswich... Are you saying he's lost his inspirational mojo?

4 points from two games is play off / close to championship winning form.  Only a fool would argue that's a bad start to his second spell.

[Mostyn6]

Just now, BathRam72 said:

Ok we are all entitled to our opinions and while I concede that Mac has only had a few training sessions to sort things out (I am a fan by the way, very pleased to see him back).

I AM FAR FROM IGNORANT.

Entitled to an opinion and yes it was dire Ignorant NO!!!!

 

but you are clearly seeing 0-0 and thinking nothing has improved. You are ignoring what is happening on the pitch, and ignoring things is the definition of ignorant!  

[Wolfie]

2 games. Only 1 win?. Mac out!

FFS

[BathRam72]

2 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

but you are clearly seeing 0-0 and thinking nothing has improved. You are ignoring what is happening on the pitch, and ignoring things is the definition of ignorant!  

Another clean sheet is great and something worth building on. I would say last night was a backward step from the Leeds game.

You could call that game the manager bounce.

I know Mac will turn it round, as I said I am a fan and hope he can recreate the heady days of a couple of years ago.

 

 

[sage]

Just now, Woodley Ram said:

A good challenge Sage. There is probably a reason why I am not a football manager ( in fact there a a few reasons why I am not a lot of things) 

change a midfielder ( not Hughes) for a more attacking/ driving one and replace one of the wingers for a big athletic forward who can unsettle defences and feed vydra 

That simply isn't enough. You have basically said 1 faster player and 1 bigger player please.

All players need to play as a team and be able to pass a ball quickly and accurately, making themselves available and being able to receive the ball in tight situations.

As soon as you have a player or two who can't or won't play like that it disrupts the whole team. Here are 3 examples.

1) Bent and Ince coming in Jan 2015. Though they scored 21 goals, both players only want the final or penultimate ball in a move. In the early to mid phase of winning then building possession you are carrying 2 players. Obviously there were other contributory factors such as a lack of a specialist DCM, but this issue was accentuated by having less possession.

2) Shackell. Shackell is a good defender, but he isn't a great passer and takes a long time to release the ball. Opposition teams started to mark Keogh and Thorne and let Shackell have the ball. Moves ground to a halt and the opposition had time to crowd Martin out. 

3) Butterfield and Johnson. They both have their qualities but they both take quite a few touches and look for wonder balls. Now they are both trying to adapt and were reasonably successful against Leeds, but we look laboured again yesterday. Can a leopard change there spots?

Out of the team that played last night I would suggest that Keogh, Hughes, Bryson, Anya and maybe Vydra are currently capable of playing this system. To think that many more will be able to adapt is very optimistic.

For those that say good players adapt. Look at Pogba at Man Utd. World's most expensive player and they have had to change their system as he couldn't play in a 442.         

[Alph]

I call dire not trying to win a game. Playing a 422-----1-----1 formation. Huge gaps in formation and players out of position.

When you're only plan of attack is to drop the ball behind the backline for someone to race after and then... well wait while the rest of the team backs up the play. 

What we had last night was 2/3 of the pitch.  We could play our players into the final third. We overplayed at times. And we didn't do much with Vydra. 

That wasn't dire to me. It was unfinished. It was a little bit dumb from some players. It was two decent footballing teams at Championship level that had a blunt end. 

It may not be Play Off stuff. But it's something we know we must work on quickly. 

The defending and transition into attack was pretty decent in the second half even with Christie being awful. 

 

[Mostyn6]

2 minutes ago, sage said:

Out of the team that played last night I would suggest that Keogh, Hughes, Bryson, Anya and maybe Vydra are currently capable of playing this system.

Odd that you pick arguably the most ineffective players from last night.

Hughes was shocking until going off, misplaced at least 3 simple sideways passes, and didn't try anything progressive. Keogh caused issues again, although did have a an adventurous run or two. Bryson managed to win a couple of headers, but was crap with his feet and was the worst of the 3 midfielders again. Anya was jeered off the pitch for his inability to actually do anything with the ball, and Vydra played like Bent but without the instinct!

Whereas Pearce was man of the match, didn't misplace a pass (forward), Johnson attempted, and was successful in some deft dinks and through-balls, but admittedly failed with 2 drilled switch passes. Butterfield is coming into his own too, with lots of ball retention and attempted to do the job that Will Hughes should be doing.

Baird was steady. Christie was shocking, Russell was flat-footed and looked de-motivated to me.