New manager . You have to play 4-3-3

[brady1993]

11 minutes ago, toddy said:

But we never really played 4-3-3, we always played Martin up alone.

4-2-3-1, 4-3-2-1 was probably more familiar formation.

 

This is correct only when applied to Clement.

Under Mac, Martin was very frequently not the most advanced player in attack. The whole system was designed so that the inside forwards and the attacking midfielder would surge past Martin. 

[toddy]

2 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

This is correct only when applied to Clement.

Under Mac, Martin was very frequently not the most advanced player in attack. The whole system was designed so that the inside forwards and the attacking midfielder would surge past Martin. 

Yes but that was 3 years ago, players have moved on, those that haven't are 3 years older, maybe not as fit or energetic , we also have a different midfield.

[Sexydadbod]

I think you're right Toddy. It was more of a 4-3-2-1 under Mac rather than a 4-3-3 where the wide forwards got close to Martin. It changed to a pure 4-3-3 under Clement which is why the likes of Ince weren't getting much joy, he was too busy stuck on the touchline.

[brady1993]

1 minute ago, toddy said:

Yes but that was 3 years ago, players have moved on, those that haven't are 3 years older, maybe not as fit or energetic , we also have a different midfield.

I'm not sure I understand your point, The post I quoted you in, you were directly referring to how we've played in the past and I was disagreeing about that assesment. I didn't mention anything about setting up going forward.

[toddy]

To play 4-3-3, you cannot have 'lazy' players, they have to be energetic. 

Barcelona you mentioned are the best at this formation, they don't play with a target man, they do play 3 direct forwards,  Nymar, tooth fairy and Messi. All 3 rotate positions, and occasionally drop deep. But they as a team move the ball so quickly from defence to attack its nightmare for defenders to mark against.

[brady1993]

10 minutes ago, McLovin said:

I think you're right Toddy. It was more of a 4-3-2-1 under Mac rather than a 4-3-3 where the wide forwards got close to Martin. It changed to a pure 4-3-3 under Clement which is why the likes of Ince weren't getting much joy, he was too busy stuck on the touchline.

Personally I think this a big part of why we started looking worse under Clement and the performance levels of Ince, Martin and Russell started to drop.

[Sexydadbod]

5 minutes ago, toddy said:

To play 4-3-3, you cannot have 'lazy' players, they have to be energetic. 

Barcelona you mentioned are the best at this formation, they don't play with a target man, they do play 3 direct forwards,  Nymar, tooth fairy and Messi. All 3 rotate positions, and occasionally drop deep. But they as a team move the ball so quickly from defence to attack its nightmare for defenders to mark against.

Ha ha liked for calling Suarez a tooth fairy 

[brady1993]

2 minutes ago, toddy said:

To play 4-3-3, you cannot have 'lazy' players, they have to be energetic. 

Barcelona you mentioned are the best at this formation, they don't play with a target man, they do play 3 direct forwards,  Nymar, tooth fairy and Messi. All 3 rotate positions, and occasionally drop deep. But they as a team move the ball so quickly from defence to attack its nightmare for defenders to mark against.

I'd argue under Mac we didn't play Martin as a target man, at least not in a traditional sense. His job in attack was to come short and build the play with the two advanced midfielders. 

Neymar, Suarez and Messi all get involved with play, and all three regularly drop into midfield positions. It's part of what makes there philosophy so successful that each and every player gets involved in that short fast paced passing, from goalkeeper to forwards. Mac was trying to impart a similar philosophy.

[cheron85]

Well this is just nonsense @curtains!!!

We could EASILY play a 1-1-8 with the number of forwards we have in the squad... AND would make for some pretty exciting games...

[duncanjwitham]

13 hours ago, brady1993 said:

Personally I think this a big part of why we started looking worse under Clement and the performance levels of Ince, Martin and Russell started to drop.

Yep. Clement's system was very much Real Madrid like, in that the defence and midfield stayed deep to control the game, and expected Bale, Ronaldo and Benzema to go and win them the game.  And as good as Martin/Ince/Russell etc are, they aren't sufficiently better than the average championship defenders to regularly win you games out of nothing.

McClaren's system was much closer to Guardiola's Barcelona setup (in style, not comparing ability or anything) - we were much more compact (the gap between the forwards and defenders) and we attacked as a team and defended as a team.  That's why the goals were much more spread around, rather than the forwards getting them all under Clement.

[rammieib]

On ‎08‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 19:23, Alpha said:

Or just don't play 422----------1------1.

And ask Bryson (a reliable passer but very short ranged and plays the way he's facing) to play on top of CB's.

Don't play ball playing midfielders in wide areas when all your service to them is hoofing into empty pitch. 

Don't then play the wide players in the middle.

Don't play like you've got a target man when you haven't. 

If you have 3 reliable possession players, maybe introduce them to the opponents half to create pressure?

If you have a striker that plays with minimal touches and draws defenders out... maybe use the space beyond him rather than wish him luck and leave the team camped

Don't ask your full back to hit crosses from deep when you have no aerial threat. 

No, you don't have to play 433. Just play a system that plays to players strengths and they can get used to so everything is done on instinct rather than a confused mess. 

The major message to the new manager would be don't try to get 20 lads to do what worked for the last 20 lads you used. Do what suits the current bunch. 

Pearson had it set in his mind what he wanted. He expected it everyone to adapt. How about meeting them halfway and slowly introduce your methods?

Alpha for Manager?

Although its pretty obvious isn't it lol.

[Sexydadbod]

23 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Yep. Clement's system was very much Real Madrid like, in that the defence and midfield stayed deep to control the game, and expected Bale, Ronaldo and Benzema to go and win them the game.  And as good as Martin/Ince/Russell etc are, they aren't sufficiently better than the average championship defenders to regularly win you games out of nothing.

McClaren's system was much closer to Guardiola's Barcelona setup (in style, not comparing ability or anything) - we were much more compact (the gap between the forwards and defenders) and we attacked as a team and defended as a team.  That's why the goals were much more spread around, rather than the forwards getting them all under Clement.

I actually think Clement's team was more similar to Guardiola's teams than the MAC team. In Clement's team, players had fixed positions and weren't really able to be flexible or move around positions, e.g why Ince was stuck on the wing. It was one of the reasons why some of the Bayern players like Ribery didn't like Pep, because he didn't allow them to express themselves as he wanted them to focus on their position tactically to help the team defensively. It was a tactic to try and open the game up and tbh this tactic worked against the lesser opposition.He also used the slow possession build up to lure the opponents into a false sense of security and aim then aim to go for a couple of killer passes once the opposition pressed high up.

Mac's team was more like Klopp's Liverpool team in that Gegen pressing was used and players were allowed to be flexible and rotate positions

[BathRam72]

On ‎08‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 22:48, cannable said:

Isn't that the point?

For nine years any incoming manager had to do it the 'Swansea way'.

For the last six years any incoming manager had to do it the 'Southampton way'.

Even since Pep left any incoming Barca manager has had to follow the blueprints he left behind. 

Clough set the blueprint. McClaren followed them. Clement started veering away from them and was subsequently sacked because of this. Wassall steered us back in the right direction. Pearson crashed the car.

Any perspective manager worth his salt will if told by MM at interview "you will do it my way" will tell MM to stick his job.

Managers have their own identity and will want to do the job their way.

I for one would hate to try and manage with the press constantly referring to your predecessor as the mastermind, or it was such and such's team.

I am sure MM is not that stupid that he would stifle his new appointment. Would he???

[brady1993]

1 minute ago, BathRam72 said:

Any perspective manager worth his salt will if told by MM at interview "you will do it my way" will tell MM to stick his job.

Managers have their own identity and will want to do the job their way.

I for one would hate to try and manage with the press constantly referring to your predecessor as the mastermind, or it was such and such's team.

I am sure MM is not that stupid that he would stifle his new appointment. Would he???

Surely this just means we identify a manager with a philosophy that is aligned or very similar to the current squad. You know like at Southampton and Swansea......

[JW37]

Can we appoint someone from the school of Ajax please. Create a 4-3-3 philosophy from first team to academy and encourage promoting from the youth teams, The Derby Way. 

[duncanjwitham]

1 minute ago, BathRam72 said:

Any perspective manager worth his salt will if told by MM at interview "you will do it my way" will tell MM to stick his job.

Managers have their own identity and will want to do the job their way.

I for one would hate to try and manage with the press constantly referring to your predecessor as the mastermind, or it was such and such's team.

I am sure MM is not that stupid that he would stifle his new appointment. Would he???

Nobody's saying they have to play exactly the same system and style of football as the previous guy.  Every manager will have his own ideas about how football should be played.  But there's no point in going through cycle after cycle of a manager coming in and completely changing the playing and coaching staff because he wants to play completely differently - you're starting from scratch every time and costing the club a fortune in the process.  And if a manager is going to reject the club because he can't fit into the club's philosophy, then great, that's the process working properly.  Southampton and Swansea don't seem to struggle to attract good managers with those requirements in place and both clubs have managed to have continued success doing it (and by success I mean relative to the size of their clubs, so Swansea staying in the Prem, Southampton challenging for Europe).

The only thing I find bizarre is that after Morris spending a year hammering on about this style of ownership, we go and appoint Pearson and were apparently willing to let him start from scratch.

[King Kevin]

48 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Yep. Clement's system was very much Real Madrid like, in that the defence and midfield stayed deep to control the game, and expected Bale, Ronaldo and Benzema to go and win them the game.  And as good as Martin/Ince/Russell etc are, they aren't sufficiently better than the average championship defenders to regularly win you games out of nothing.

McClaren's system was much closer to Guardiola's Barcelona setup (in style, not comparing ability or anything) - we were much more compact (the gap between the forwards and defenders) and we attacked as a team and defended as a team.  That's why the goals were much more spread around, rather than the forwards getting them all under Clement.

Get your CV in son.

[cannable]

13 minutes ago, BathRam72 said:

Any perspective manager worth his salt will if told by MM at interview "you will do it my way" will tell MM to stick his job.

Managers have their own identity and will want to do the job their way.

I for one would hate to try and manage with the press constantly referring to your predecessor as the mastermind, or it was such and such's team.

I am sure MM is not that stupid that he would stifle his new appointment. Would he???

Hire managers who share similar philosophies. It's not a case of "do it my way". It's a case of "how do you do it?" "High press, build from the back, possession football, control and attack". "You've got the job." 

I wouldn't be surprised if Clement and Pearson either misunderstood the remit or just lied. 

[duncanjwitham]

21 minutes ago, McLovin said:

I actually think Clement's team was more similar to Guardiola's teams than the MAC team. In Clement's team, players had fixed positions and weren't really able to be flexible or move around positions, e.g why Ince was stuck on the wing. It was one of the reasons why some of the Bayern players like Ribery didn't like Pep, because he didn't allow them to express themselves as he wanted them to focus on their position tactically to help the team defensively. It was a tactic to try and open the game up and tbh this tactic worked against the lesser opposition.He also used the slow possession build up to lure the opponents into a false sense of security and aim then aim to go for a couple of killer passes once the opposition pressed high up.

Mac's team was more like Klopp's Liverpool team in that Gegen pressing was used and players were allowed to be flexible and rotate positions

I didn't see enough of Guardiola's Bayern team to judge, but Barca were certainly a lot more fluid under him than we were under Clement, they certainly didn't force Henry/Pedro/Messi/Villa etc to hug the touchline when playing out wide.  They pushed their backline up much further than we did as well.

[BathRam72]

9 minutes ago, cannable said:

Hire managers who share similar philosophies. It's not a case of "do it my way". It's a case of "how do you do it?" "High press, build from the back, possession football, control and attack". "You've got the job." 

I wouldn't be surprised if Clement and Pearson either misunderstood the remit or just lied. 

My point is, unless MM really doesn't follow football, he knew exactly what he was getting when he hired Pearson.

He must have known what a strong personality he is and would want to do it his way. If MM wandered into the changing room and started to under mind him, I am sure Pearson would not have been as diplomatic as Clement.