archied Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 The crux is what people define as failure and they forget it's all relative ,, the first season under Mac ( preceded by some performances under clough ) were a revelation as it seemed to me to have been such a long time since I had seen a Derby side capable of stringing two simple passes together and it was a joy to watch ( I am 55 and watched us at our brilliant best under clough senior and Dave Mac ) that said the target was and is promotion so by that benchmark we have failed and the big thing people don't realise is that for a club like us promotion is the target because if you produce good teams and good players but don't quite get up regularly those players get poached and you end up playing snakes and ladders constantly having to rebuild , we are not throwing it all away and starting again as some would have you believe , there's far more to our ambitions than that , ground , academy , training facilities , youth policy infrastructure ,,, all those things are not being stopped , Mel has brought in a manager that he feels can build a first team that can get promoted and then stay up if he is given time and the power to do the job on the football side of things the way he feels will get the best result ,, nobody died , we haven't pawned the cutlery , we brought in a manager who is reasonably highly regarded in football and are giving him a crack at doing the job ,, if he was ripping apart a title winning team the fair enough but let's be honest he is changing a side the most on here fully believed would have to be ripped apart if we got up anyway ,,,, jeez get a grip folks ,, we have a new broom and we have started Badly whilst making big changes and from what I can see even if he had stayed 4/3/3 but brought in improved players for that system we poss had a group of players who would have sulked and underperformed if they or their mates places in the team had been threatened ,, whatever way you slice it we needed a bloody good freshen up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 8 minutes ago, archied said: we have a new broom and we have started Badly whilst making big changes and from what I can see even if he had stayed 4/3/3 but brought in improved players for that system we poss had a group of players who would have sulked and underperformed if they or their mates places in the team had been threatened ,, whatever way you slice it we needed a bloody good freshen up As has been stated he chose to break things up - where is our longed for consistency now? Surely the best way to build any team is to have players doing what they are best at. The freshen up could have been done with the players he bought in, the insistence on 4-4-2 over 4-3-3 is unfathomable. He's an old fashioned manager of the worst sort it seems. Do as he says or you're out. And the only way to play is the Pearson way ie 4-4-2. God knows how anyone believes that he could keep us in the Prem (lets pretend he could get us there - but this is a different Championship to when Leicester went up, Prem money has seen to that)! He's a waste of time and instead of things getting better it's entirely possible things will get worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 11 minutes ago, Millenniumram said: Pearsons game plan is pretty much stick the players who run the most on the pitch, it doesn't matter what formation or style of play we go with- just shove em out there, tell them to run around a bit and we'll win the game... Do you not think that is him just laying the first building block in terms of no matter how good you are if you don't put every ounce you have in on the pitch and in training then you don't pull on our shirt ,, how many times and from how many football people do we here that the first thing you must do in this division is earn the right to play ,, work rate and determination,, sorry but I've seen it too many times over the past two seasons where teams with nothing like the talent of our team have beaten us easily because we could not or would not match them for work rate effort and fitness ,,,, sorry but get that right first then build on it, we have far to many players who just don't turn up far too often Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 2 minutes ago, archied said: Do you not think that is him just laying the first building block in terms of no matter how good you are if you don't put every ounce you have in on the pitch and in training then you don't pull on our shirt ,, how many times and from how many football people do we here that the first thing you must do in this division is earn the right to play ,, work rate and determination,, sorry but I've seen it too many times over the past two seasons where teams with nothing like the talent of our team have beaten us easily because we could not or would not match them for work rate effort and fitness ,,,, sorry but get that right first then build on it, we have far to many players who just don't turn up far too often Yeah, don't get me wrong I completely agree that work rate and energy are very important in this division, and some of the players we have brought in have filled me with confidence we are at least improving in that regard. However that is not the only part of success in this division, as important as work rate is, it's nothing without proper tactics, game plan and identity- none of which Pearson from what I've seen so far has installed into the team. That's what I'm getting at that's concerning me, it's like he believes we can win through work rate alone, football no longer works like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 4 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: As has been stated he chose to break things up - where is our longed for consistency now? Surely the best way to build any team is to have players doing what they are best at. The freshen up could have been done with the players he bought in, the insistence on 4-4-2 over 4-3-3 is unfathomable. He's an old fashioned manager of the worst sort it seems. Do as he says or you're out. And the only way to play is the Pearson way ie 4-4-2. God knows how anyone believes that he could keep us in the Prem (lets pretend he could get us there - but this is a different Championship to when Leicester went up, Prem money has seen to that)! He's a waste of time and instead of things getting better it's entirely possible things will get worse. Have the players doing what they are best at ? There's a large school of thought that what they were best at was snatching failure from the jaws of victory ? Old fashioned ,, fashion is cyclicle 4/4/2 seems to be coming back into vogue with tweaks to it reason for this is somebody has a formation somebody else tries a different formation to counter it ,, Pearson in my eyes is not some football god just a manager who was amongst the best available to us at the time and as such I'm happy he s here and will give him some time to build his team before I'm too harsh on him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 9 minutes ago, Millenniumram said: Yeah, don't get me wrong I completely agree that work rate and energy are very important in this division, and some of the players we have brought in have filled me with confidence we are at least improving in that regard. However that is not the only part of success in this division, as important as work rate is, it's nothing without proper tactics, game plan and identity- none of which Pearson from what I've seen so far has installed into the team. That's what I'm getting at that's concerning me, it's like he believes we can win through work rate alone, football no longer works like that Can't a would nt say you are wrong in that view just for me I'm willing to hold off a bit as I feel it way to early , I can see what he wants to do ( I think) and by the next window I would really want to see clearly this taking shape on the pitch and then the window being used to bring in players that make sense to us in terms of fitting in with and improving what's happening on the pitch unlike the last few purchases before he took over ,,, if I can't make heads nor tails of the next window and where it's taking us then I will really have concerns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 In simple terms what I think I see is Pearson wanting a front line that is the front line rather than having a static front line that depends on our midfield streaming beyond the forwards every time to have a chance of scoring ,,, leaves us vulnerable when we lose the ball , may be wrong but I believe that's what he's looking for so we keep our shape better and play as a unit in defence and attack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 Just now, archied said: Can't a would nt say you are wrong in that view just for me I'm willing to hold off a bit as I feel it way to early , I can see what he wants to do ( I think) and by the next window I would really want to see clearly this taking shape on the pitch and then the window being used to bring in players that make sense to us in terms of fitting in with and improving what's happening on the pitch unlike the last few purchases before he took over ,,, if I can't make heads nor tails of the next window and where it's taking us then I will really have concerns Yeah I know I do seem quite rash in my judgement of Pearson, I can see why others are obviously reserving judgement for a while, and I certainly would be too if I could see some sort of direction he's taking us in- hopefully I will soon and we'll start pulling performances together. Maybe he does need more time to put his stamp on the team so to speak, but right now it's the lack of any sort of style that's concerning me and if results continue MM might agree with my early judgement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 4 hours ago, europia said: I realise that there is a train of thought that the squad which failed under McLaren - Clement - Wassall just needed one small tweak and it would all fall into place. I just don't think it to be the case. The best opportunities, arguably the play off final v QPR and McLaren's 2nd season came and went without success. Factions within the squad then appeared and sometimes it requires surgery rather that a sticking plaster to put things right. I agree with the train of thought you mention, we challenged the top 6 for 3 years playing fairly exciting football. Now we're not due to a fundemental change, all that was needed was continual improvement to the system/squad we had , not a overhaul IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 6 hours ago, Bris Vegas said: Peaked? What so you can't get better than this? Southampton play 433, or at least they did under Ronald Koeman. So how do you get from Derby County -> Southampton? It really isn't difficult. We had pretty much everything in place in terms of system and style. It was a case of now improving each position with the right profile needed. Change Martin for Pelle. Change Thorne for Wanyama, Change Keogh for Van Dijk, Change Christie for Soares, Change Russell for Tadic. Change Hendrick for Romeu. Change Ince for Mane.... We needed a few tweaks, improvements in key areas.. Instead we've started all over again, throwing away the system, profile and playing style. All because Nigel Pearson got promoted with Leicester City. We're banking on him (without all his backroom staff at Leicester) to replicate his work which was no more impressive than Alex McLeish at Birmingham City. Insanity! The players of 13/14 and 14/15 were not good enough, they played out of their skins for those two seasons and I do believe that team peaked. Don't forget it was really Clough's team from the season early, Mac managed to get them playing to their maximum ability, but that was still not good enough to get promotion. Then Clement came in and tried a different way and also adding more players into the mix, but we were still not good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 6 hours ago, rynny said: Makes loaning out the clubs top scorer for the last 3 years seem even worse. The word you forgot to use was past. When did he last score a goal, Easter?, it's was that long ago I cannot even remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 4 minutes ago, toddy said: The players of 13/14 and 14/15 were not good enough, they played out of their skins for those two seasons and I do believe that team peaked. Don't forget it was really Clough's team from the season early, Mac managed to get them playing to their maximum ability, but that was still not good enough to get promotion. Then Clement came in and tried a different way and also adding more players into the mix, but we were still not good enough. Even if they had peaked, which I don't agree with, why change it? Why not just sign improvements? Why not spend the £25,000,000 on a centre-half that defends as well as Shackell but possess Bucko's ability on the ball? Why not sign a faster or taller version of Martin? Why not go for a genuinely quality right-footed winger to replace Ward? It still doesn't make sense to rip it down. Even if you think that that team had peaked, why tear it down rather than improve it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkle Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 3 hours ago, TexasRam said: I agree with the train of thought you mention, we challenged the top 6 for 3 years playing fairly exciting football. Now we're not due to a fundemental change, all that was needed was continual improvement to the system/squad we had , not a overhaul IMO Agree with that, we mainly needed a fast goal scorer to play alongside Martin and quality cover for Thorne at that time and I think that would have done the trick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 34 minutes ago, Sparkle said: Agree with that, we mainly needed a fast goal scorer to play alongside Martin and quality cover for Thorne at that time and I think that would have done the trick But would a fast goal scorer alongside Martin not change the formation meaning we had two up ? RaOr would that fast goal scorer play wide left or right of a front 3? Ala Russell ,wiemen ,Blackman ,,, I'm happy enough if what Pearson is trying to achieve our midfield supporting the front players rather than having to stream beyond our front players to be effective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 1 hour ago, toddy said: The word you forgot to use was past. When did he last score a goal, Easter?, it's was that long ago I cannot even remember. No my statement was correct. He was our top scorer for the last 3 seasons. What are you struggling with? His last goal was 1 month before the season finished and played for 3 weeks this season. A total of 9 weeks worth of league games. But don't let me get in the way of a good bashing though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth's left foot Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 Oh look, another thread mocking NP. yawn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 4 hours ago, cannable said: Even if they had peaked, which I don't agree with, why change it? Why not just sign improvements? Why not spend the £25,000,000 on a centre-half that defends as well as Shackell but possess Bucko's ability on the ball? Why not sign a faster or taller version of Martin? Why not go for a genuinely quality right-footed winger to replace Ward? It still doesn't make sense to rip it down. Even if you think that that team had peaked, why tear it down rather than improve it? Because we failed. We failed ok. We all failed. Just like all the other clubs that didn't get promoted. All failures. Chuck them all in the bin. Every player. There's no way on earth you could get improve or build on a failed team. Take a look at that Derby County for example. Midtable every year, never won more than they lost and then suddenly the leagues top scorers on 85 points. But they did it by having a massive overhaul... I can't believe Nigel Clough is still in work after what he left McClaren with. If top 6 for majority 3 years is failure then he was Paul Jewell MK II in his time. (why do we argue with toddy. He just ignores the points and then repeats himself in another thread. Was the same with "Mel doesn't want promotion" last season. If Wassall was putting these performances out it'd be different!! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrm14 Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 4 hours ago, toddy said: The players of 13/14 and 14/15 were not good enough, they played out of their skins for those two seasons and I do believe that team peaked. Don't forget it was really Clough's team from the season early, Mac managed to get them playing to their maximum ability, but that was still not good enough to get promotion. Then Clement came in and tried a different way and also adding more players into the mix, but we were still not good enough. The QPR game was a shock, we didn't capitalise against ten men but you're neglecting to mention that one of our top scorers that season (Bryson) was injured and only came on late. Either way it was a freak results and we were definitely good enough to go up that season. The 14/15 season we didn't go up due to injures and a snaky manager. We lost Thorne for the season, lost Eustace at an awkward time and realised Mascarell wasn't good enough. We also lost Martin and someone else (I can't remember who, I want to say Russell) which resulted in the Bent + Ince loans. We spent large chunks of the season without our key players and still managed to nearly achieve promotion. You genuinely believe our players weren't good enough in both of those seasons? When that team was fit it will beat anyone at this level, look at the end of last season where we went on the run before the play offs which was only stopped by Thorne breaking his leg (still not forgiven Ipswich for that). We get it, you love Pearson and for some odd reason want him to tear apart what we've built in the past few seasons but don't diminish how good we were when everyone was fully fit. We didn't get proper replacements which is down to poor management, but we were definitely good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, lrm14 said: The QPR game was a shock, we didn't capitalise against ten men but you're neglecting to mention that one of our top scorers that season (Bryson) was injured and only came on late. Either way it was a freak results and we were definitely good enough to go up that season. The 14/15 season we didn't go up due to injures and a snaky manager. We lost Thorne for the season, lost Eustace at an awkward time and realised Mascarell wasn't good enough. We also lost Martin and someone else (I can't remember who, I want to say Russell) which resulted in the Bent + Ince loans. We spent large chunks of the season without our key players and still managed to nearly achieve promotion. You genuinely believe our players weren't good enough in both of those seasons? When that team was fit it will beat anyone at this level, look at the end of last season where we went on the run before the play offs which was only stopped by Thorne breaking his leg (still not forgiven Ipswich for that). We get it, you love Pearson and for some odd reason want him to tear apart what we've built in the past few seasons but don't diminish how good we were when everyone was fully fit. We didn't get proper replacements which is down to poor management, but we were definitely good enough. I think,Irm14, that Bent was injured too. Russell and Ward (?) had a go up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrm14 Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 4 minutes ago, Alpha said: I think,Irm14, that Bent was injured too. Russell and Ward (?) had a go up front. Yeah I forgot he was injured too. Irrelevant though, the players were failures and not good enough right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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