Alph Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 11 minutes ago, toddy said: Yes, but Wassall was a temporary fix, untried and inexperienced - Nigel Pearson is the real deal, been there and done it. The way we played [4-3-3] for the last 3 seasons has not worked, if the season ended at Christmas we would have been promoted. So there has been a problem within the squad for longevity of the season, we have brought in an experienced manager, who now has to get that sorted out. Have we got an issue with some players not 'manning up', lacking leaders within the squad, yes possibly - I back NP, he has the experience to sort this out - if he thinks there are players not pulling their waiting, then he will and should offload them, no player is bigger than the club. NP will get this club back on track............ Firstly though we haven't played 433 the same for 3 seasons. Hence Clement was sacked. Our middle season derailed when we lost 3 defensive midfielder, first and second choice striker and there was speculation around our manager and we tinkered with the back 4 constantly So no, we haven't tried the same system for 3 years. But if you think the formation of 433 is to blame for our "failure" then what was the previous years and years of 442? Nigel Pearson has been there and done that. So has Aidy Bothroyd. And Paul Jewell is a proven Premier League manager with Wigan. Maybe instead of seeing the negative in not quite getting promotion you should see the positives in why we finished so much higher than the previous years where we never won more games than we lost. Not once since 2006/2007. I really wish people would give it a rest with this "433 failed for 3 years" It's as boring and wrong as "Mel doesn't want promotion" Just keep saying the same thing without any context. It's like me saying Craig Forsyth was useless for most of last season. Or Thorne hasn't had a single good game this season. As for players lacking effort... what? professional footballers viewed by thousands and scrutinised across every media there is? They don't care? They don't care about the financial and career rewards of playing at the highest possible domestic level? Players like fat Chris Martin maybe. Who's been labelled as "not interested and unfit" who came back from pre season early and goes into Moor Farm on days off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BathRam72 Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 10 hours ago, DCFCArmy said: I really can't understand the toys out the pram tantrum from some of our fans... 3 bloody games ffs.. He needs a year to get to grips with what he needs to do. Some people today are beyond stupidity I also put something very similar early on in this thread and got lambasted. I totally agree with you. I am certain that the starts that Cloughie and Steve put in were not league smashing starts and they also needed time to build on what they wanted to achieve. But two league and one cup game????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 Like has been said. People aren't overly concerned with the results and to a certain extent the performances. It's the jobs he's asking players to do when they're not good at those things. To which you get 3 replies. 1) 433 failed for 3 years. (not true. See my previous post.) 2) We're only 3 games in (yeah, accepted. But we can't see what he's trying to do. One player is being asked to do something he's not good at while a player suited to that role is doing something he's not good at. You don't have to be a manager to know what a footballer is good at. We're concerned if that's ok? 3) He needs to rebuild (Well why not start in the summer? Why did we sack Clement for not following the path? Why is a team that finished in the play offs totally rebuilding? Would you say Brighton need to rebuild?) ... so you see, it's not as simple as we've not started great and we're throwing a tantrum. We might benefit from a rebuild. If you have faith then great! But what if, just what if we don't. Do we rebuild again? Then again with a new manager. Do we miss those players we sold? Do we regret throwing away an "almost" team rather than tweaking it. Can you see the angle we're coming from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VulcanRam Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 9 hours ago, Bris Vegas said: In a flat 442? I don't think so. Not the point. A player's ineffectiveness in a position doesn't necessarily correlate to any formation. In a 433 or 442 or any formation Johnson or Hughes or Bryson are ineffective out wide. Same as strikers out wide. Been a problem at Derby for ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 The only consistent through the last 3 years is the players, coach/managers have come and gone. 12 minutes ago, Alpha said: Firstly though we haven't played 433 the same for 3 seasons. Hence Clement was sacked. Our middle season derailed when we lost 3 defensive midfielder, first and second choice striker and there was speculation around our manager and we tinkered with the back 4 constantly So no, we haven't tried the same system for 3 years. But if you think the formation of 433 is to blame for our "failure" then what was the previous years and years of 442? Nigel Pearson has been there and done that. So has Aidy Bothroyd. And Paul Jewell is a proven Premier League manager with Wigan. Maybe instead of seeing the negative in not quite getting promotion you should see the positives in why we finished so much higher than the previous years where we never won more games than we lost. Not once since 2006/2007. I really wish people would give it a rest with this "433 failed for 3 years" It's as boring and wrong as "Mel doesn't want promotion" Just keep saying the same thing without any context. It's like me saying Craig Forsyth was useless for most of last season. Or Thorne hasn't had a single good game this season. As for players lacking effort... what? professional footballers viewed by thousands and scrutinised across every media there is? They don't care? They don't care about the financial and career rewards of playing at the highest possible domestic level? Players like fat Chris Martin maybe. Who's been labelled as "not interested and unfit" who came back from pre season early and goes into Moor Farm on days off. Regardless we still have had failure over the last 3 years - as promotion has always been the target as you rightly say. The only consistent throughout the last 3 years is the players, coach's and managers have gone, now we have after 2 games players with no confidence? What 2 games? Shocking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlsonDerby Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 People get caught up on formations. Whats the difference between a 4411 and 433? Not a massive amount if the wingers play high as expected when on top in the 4411? You have 1 more holding midfielder and 1 less attacking midfielder. 4411: Gk defence 2 deeper mids winger number 10 winger striker 433: gk defence holding mid attacking mids wingers striker. This says to me that we just need to get the wingers cutting in more/getting closer to the striker as that's one of only 2 differences between 433 and 4411. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 There is no such thing as "the Derby way", it's like West Ham fans banging on about "the West Ham way", what the hell is that meant to mean? We played good football in Mac's first season but after that it was a downward spiral in terms of performances. Pearson clearly knows what he is doing, if he wants to rip it up and start again I'm willing to give him a chance. Good luck trying to convince a better manager than Pearson to come here whilst we are in the championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 16 hours ago, cheron85 said: Not for 2 years they weren't... And I know a few Leicester fans who weren't enamoured with his style in the promotion season... And then they played uninspiring football under him which nearly got them relegated when he had them in the Prem... If his answer is "scarp it all and start again" then fair enough... Let's settle in to struggle this season and aim for promotion in a couple of years time... But at least someone should come out and say that... If however he's supposed to be 'building on what we already have' then he needs to show some sign of paying attention to what we already have... At the moment he seems to be doing neither... Go have a look on the Leicester forum, the majority of them think he is the best manager in their history, even higher than Ranieri as he left the foundations and they appreciate that he helped to stabilize their club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted August 16, 2016 Author Share Posted August 16, 2016 10 hours ago, mwram1973 said: nope Awwwwwwwwwwwww you still love me! 9 hours ago, CastletonRam said: This is the stupidest thread I've ever seen. 3 games ffs. In your opinion... Others on this forum have appreciated the chance to vent here... And as stated at the start... I'm trying to take responsibility and be positive or neutral everywhere else and keep negativity contained in one small part of the forum... 2 hours ago, toddy said: Yes, but Wassall was a temporary fix, untried and inexperienced - Nigel Pearson is the real deal, been there and done it. The way we played [4-3-3] for the last 3 seasons has not worked, if the season ended at Christmas we would have been promoted. So there has been a problem within the squad for longevity of the season, we have brought in an experienced manager, who now has to get that sorted out. Have we got an issue with some players not 'manning up', lacking leaders within the squad, yes possibly - I back NP, he has the experience to sort this out - if he thinks there are players not pulling their waiting, then he will and should offload them, no player is bigger than the club. NP will get this club back on track............ Hasn't worked? We went to the playoff final with 4-3-3 playing some of the best football I've seen us play in ages... Apart from one unfortunate game at Burnley we may have been top 2 that season... Last season we finished 5th and should really have beaten Hull... They beat us on (essentially) a last gasp winner when we were throwing every man forward... If we'd been relegation fodder for the last 4 years then you could say 4-3-3 hasn't worked... All we need is consistency... I don't personally believe the way to do that is scrap EVERYTHING which has made us good for the last 3 years... If the roof of a house you've been building for the last 3 years has leaks do you tear it down and start again? Or do you work out how to replace the roof? Pearson is tearing away at our foundations... 26 minutes ago, McLovin said: Go have a look on the Leicester forum, the majority of them think he is the best manager in their history, even higher than Ranieri as he left the foundations and they appreciate that he helped to stabilize their club. Great... I'm very happy for them (I actually am which is weird... At first I hated the idea of them winning the league but mostly they've been quite good humoured about the whole thing)... However that doesn't even come close to negating my statement... I know Leicester fans who weren't happy with the style of play... Never said they were the majority... Just that they exist... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 2 hours ago, toddy said: The only consistent through the last 3 years is the players, coach/managers have come and gone. Regardless we still have had failure over the last 3 years - as promotion has always been the target as you rightly say. The only consistent throughout the last 3 years is the players, coach's and managers have gone, now we have after 2 games players with no confidence? What 2 games? Shocking! I always thought the target was constantly improving with each new gaffer coming in and improving what we already head - constantly improving - promotion being achieved naturally as a consequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 1 hour ago, McLovin said: There is no such thing as "the Derby way", it's like West Ham fans banging on about "the West Ham way", what the hell is that meant to mean? We played good football in Mac's first season but after that it was a downward spiral in terms of performances. Pearson clearly knows what he is doing, if he wants to rip it up and start again I'm willing to give him a chance. Good luck trying to convince a better manager than Pearson to come here whilst we are in the championship. The Derby way was a poor phrase. But what he means is stabilise the way the team functions. So its easy to recruit. If we play such and such a system then our youngsters come up knowing that system. The manager we recruit would recognise and have history playing the style of football and type of players on his CV. We can upgrade easy. 433 say, let's have a look... well we need to upgrade Russell and drop him to bench. Who's next... etc etc It's about having an identity and recruiting to that. Precisely so we don't bring a manager in with the free reign to tear it all up and do everything his way. Teams mentioned were Swansea, Saints, Bournemouth, Watford etc. But lots of teams do it now. That's where the director of football, head coach model comes in. The Derby way sounds horrible. I know it does. But it's really just the stable way followed by many clubs. Apart from short term cling ons forever making up numbers in the PL without ever a hope of Europe. But it's been scrapped now. So I doubt we'll hear that phrase again. We're short term adventurers now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 2 hours ago, Alpha said: Firstly though we haven't played 433 the same for 3 seasons. Hence Clement was sacked. Completely agree with everything in your post. If you actually look at what was happening on the pitch under Clement, yes we were playing 433, but shape-wise, it was very similar to what Pearson is trying to do. They were both very rigid systems, with the back 4 deep, the midfielders sat right in front of them, and then the forwards pushed right up. The only difference is what the players are trying to do within that shape. Under Clement possession was everything, Under Pearson getting the ball forward as quickly as possibly is everything. But they both expose the same set of problems. The forwards we have can't deal with high balls up to them when they have no support. Martin, Bent, Blackman, Weimann, Russell etc are not target men, you can't sling the ball up to them and expect them to hold it while the rest of the team catches up. Martin is all balls into feet and quick layoffs (which won't work if he's isolated and you play the ball to his head), the others are all pace and movement and balls in behind, so you need through balls to run onto or balls into feet and let them turn and run, which needs creative midfielders on the ball in the final third. If you want to play direct, you either need a big bulky Steve Howard type, to hold the ball, hold off defenders and then feed the rest of the team when they catch up, or ideally you need an Andre Gray type that can do all of the above, plus has the pace to get on behind himself. The same sort of problems apply to the midfielders and wingers as well - our current group are all balls into feet, quick passes, movement off the ball and so on. For this to work, you need players to stay close to each other, and the team to stay quite compact so there are always passing options nearby. If you want to play direct, you need powerful, pacy wingers that will just get on the ball and sprint for the by-line and cross and you need tough-tackling midfielders that get up and down the pitch and move the ball quickly to the wingers and forwards. Basically, both Clement's 433 and Pearson's 442 result in the team being spread out - the defenders and midfielders are deep, the forwards are pushed right up. This reduces the passing options for the midfielders, and extends the amount of time the forwards have to hold the ball to retain possession. So in both cases, what happens is when we have possession, it's always deep and doesn't create chances, when we get the ball forward, we don't have support so we lose it. The only difference between Clement and Pearson is how often the ball gets punted forwards. Under Clement we won games purely on talent alone - we had enough games were a ball would drop to Ince and he'd dribble past 3 players and slot it, or Butterfield would lash one in from 25 yards. And I expect us to do the same with Pearson in charge - Ince or Bent could have easily scored a winner against Brighton, for example. But we'll never get promoted unless we have a coherent system that has players doing what they're good at (whether it's the current set in a high-tempo possession oriented system, or a different set in a fast, direct system). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 14 minutes ago, Alpha said: The Derby way was a poor phrase. But what he means is stabilise the way the team functions. So its easy to recruit. ... It's about having an identity and recruiting to that. Precisely so we don't bring a manager in with the free reign to tear it all up and do everything his way. ... But it's been scrapped now. So I doubt we'll hear that phrase again. We're short term adventurers now So far bar the formation NP has torn nothing up. The easy to recruit bit, well we've been good at that haven't we - most agree Mel spunked £10?m (at PC's choosing?) last season - how good is that? I'm really hoping that the two new recruitment guys, one with European knowledge, can do their stuff. Here at the behest of NP I would imagine? Sod being stabilised we weren't stable at all! Unless you call not getting promoted time and again stable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester Fan Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 5 minutes ago, cheron85 said: Great... I'm very happy for them (I actually am which is weird... At first I hated the idea of them winning the league but mostly they've been quite good humoured about the whole thing)... However that doesn't even come close to negating my statement... I know Leicester fans who weren't happy with the style of play... Never said they were the majority... Just that they exist... Yeah but they're not worth listening to. The people who were unhappy with our style of play under Pearson are the same people who thought he'd taken us as far as he could when he got us back into the Championship, and then again when we lost the in the Semi-Finals of the Playoffs, and again when we won the Championship and who thought there was no way he could keep us up in the Premier League. Everyone who was critical of Nigel Pearson at Leicester was proved wrong again and again and again. And because they were continually proved wrong about his ability to win football matches, and they were the sort of stubborn weirdos who would decided a manager is s*** after three games and not budge, they attacked his style of play. During his first stint at the club we had a very limited squad and very limited resources, we played in a manner that suited the players we had to great effect, it wasn't the prettiest but it worked. During his second spell I firmly believe we were one of the best sides to watch in the Championship, and I think any of you who watched our games against each other would agree. The truth is that once Pearson had been afforded the time to build his side we played exciting winning football, we were very solid defensively and lethal going forward in the division you're trying to get out of. We didn't play football geared towards possession, but in the Championship under Pearson, we were an entertaining, attacking team, that were never boring to watch. Since it's clearly a sore issue for you lot at the moment, I feel I should point out that Nigel Pearson is not unwilling to play 4-3-3. Obviously he's tended to favour a 4-4-2, but he did play 4-3-3 at times with us, and experimented with a 5-2-1-2 on a number of occasions, including our great escape. Plenty of Leicester fans think he's stubborn, as do many of you, and in some ways it's true. But it's not a stubborn unwillingness to change his system or his style of play, it's a stubborn unwillingness to put up with players who don't have the right attitude and who don't buy into the atmosphere he'll try to create at the club. That's a part of our success that undeniably dates back to Pearson, and it's because he made brave unpopular decisions upon his return to the club, he froze out club captain and at the time the second most expensive signing in our history Matt Mills, he got rid of Jermaine Beckford who we had spent a couple of million on. He replaced those two for example, with a Forest legend and a £1m non-league striker. Do you honestly think that there weren't people concerned about that? There were, particularly when the two of them didn't make a fantastic start, there were people who called Wes Morgan a donkey, and people who were adamant that we should loan Jamie Vardy out to Preston because he had a poor first season. There were people who thought no-marks like Danny Drinkwater and Jamie Vardy had no place in our team and were only there because Nigel Pearson couldn't deal with big name players like Jermaine Beckford. It wasn't a quick fix, but Nigel moved on players who didn't contribute, positively, to what we were trying to do and replaced them with people who had the right attitude and determination to succeed. And once it clicked, we were fantastic. At the same time he put in place a sports science and scouting team that have done absolute wonders for us. Now I know you're not in the mess we were left in by Sousa and Sven, I get that, but isn't it worth entertaining the idea that Nigel Pearson will be able to replicate what he did with us if you afford him the time to do it and you forgive the teething problems? For what it's worth, in all but one full season he's had with a club at this level, he's finished in the top six, you failed to win any of your first five games last season and finished in the top six, probably a bit early to be having a panic attack. Sorry for rambling, Nigel Pearson did so much for us and it hurts a bit to see the same sort of negativity and ridiculous expectations we had to put up with from a minority of our fans popping up here this early. His record is good enough that he deserves to be given time at Derby, he was given time here to the displeasure of many of our fans and he completely transformed our club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted August 16, 2016 Author Share Posted August 16, 2016 14 minutes ago, Leicester Fan said: and they were the sort of stubborn weirdos who would decided a manager is s*** after three games and not budge, they attacked his style of play. During his second spell I firmly believe we were one of the best sides to watch in the Championship, and I think any of you who watched our games against each other would agree. Since it's clearly a sore issue for you lot at the moment, I feel I should point out that Nigel Pearson is not unwilling to play 4-3-3. Obviously he's tended to favour a 4-4-2 For what it's worth, in all but one full season he's had with a club at this level, he's finished in the top six, you failed to win any of your first five games last season and finished in the top six, probably a bit early to be having a panic attack. Sorry for rambling, Nigel Pearson did so much for us and it hurts a bit to see the same sort of negativity and ridiculous expectations we had to put up with from a minority of our fans popping up here this early. His record is good enough that he deserves to be given time at Derby, he was given time here to the displeasure of many of our fans and he completely transformed our club. Please don't come onto our forum and suggest we're "stubborn weirdos" because we don't have the same hero-worship (deservedly so) that you guys have for him... I'm sure you don't feel the same as we do about many Derby legends so no need to suggest that people who don't like Pearson are "stubborn weirdos" thanks... In 13-14 you spanked us in the game at your place... When we had an off day... At home you nicked us 1-0 in a typical old school "defend like hell and hope for a breakaway" performance... It's fair to say we don't much like going to your stadium... But that's the thing... We don't want to see a Derby side playing defensive-breakaway football... That's our big complaint (those of us complaining, not all of us)... We want to continue playing like Swansea, Southampton and Bournemouth... Just need to add consistency... We have a squad full of players who have been built around 4-3-3... Have challenged for the playoffs the last 3 years playing 4-3-3... So not awful by any stretch... And for some reason Pearson has come in and started playing people out of position to fit into his 4-4-2... Is that not a little odd? And the problem we have is that he's leaving out our creative players... Martin and Hughes are two incredibly passionate players for us... They give everything on the pitch every time they play... And both have expressed desire to play for Derby... So it's odd that Pearson seems to be freezing them out... As mercurial as Beckford might have been, Hughes is one of the best CMs in the championship... The 'panic attack' (not for me I never wanted Pearson) is because we watched this happen last season... Manager came in... Didn't understand the players/squad... Did okay for a while playing the players in the wrong way... eventually came unstuck... I can shadows of last year all over again... I get it... Your experience of Pearson was a very positive one... And he will remain forever a great manager for you guys... However I'm perfectly within my rights to voice the opinions that he's not right for us... He doesn't seem to have understood the squad and our players and he's taking us down a very 'Billy Davies' route as far as I'm concerned... I want him to inspire hard work in our talented players... You can't teach the kind of talent that Hughes has... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 The above is a fantastic post. Thanks Leicester fan. My interpretation of the derby way is to play with some pizazz, some flair, bloomer carter hector gemill wanchope Bryson-Hughes but be smart. I don't think it has to be 4-3-3 with endless possession (although that's the original Dutch way) and it's certainly not long ball. Derby way is anything ole big head clough said. We can embrace almost any formation and still be true to that. Pearsons remarks are consistent: that he expects a fit resilient intelligent team but with more "team" play and a bravery to be positive and that is to me consistent with the derby way. And he's tough on players not the fans. I sit not far behind him at home, watch him, and he saves his biggest rants for negative balls which was a clement trademark. (Johnson was playing backward balls, and Baird is the king of backward play - OUT). He wants us to take them on which is why I think he likes Blackman so far who's always running at defenders. Derby way is attacking but smart. Mclaren for all of his fan club here played stupid, especially at key moments . A first class bottler. You need a draw at home to reading on the final day to make the playoffs and he says "we are going to attack" and we lose 0-3. Numerous examples from him. That wasn't the Derby way that was the dumbarse way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 Leicester fan says this of Pearson and if this isn't consistent with the derby way I don't know what is: During his second spell I firmly believe we were one of the best sides to watch in the Championship, and I think any of you who watched our games against each other would agree. The truth is that once Pearson had been afforded the time to build his side we played exciting winning football, we were very solid defensively and lethal going forward in the division you're trying to get out of. We didn't play football geared towards possession, but in the Championship under Pearson, we were an entertaining, attacking team, that were never boring to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted August 16, 2016 Author Share Posted August 16, 2016 8 minutes ago, Ninos said: The above is a fantastic post. Thanks Leicester fan. I'm not a Leicester fan... But thanks anyway Ninos! 8 minutes ago, Ninos said: Mclaren for all of his fan club here played stupid, especially at key moments . That wasn't the Derby way that was the dumbarse way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 23 minutes ago, cheron85 said: I want him to inspire hard work in our talented players... You can't teach the kind of talent that Hughes has... Thats more up to the player than NP, he will try but if our talented players arent up for it then theres nothing you can do. It's clear NP is giving EVERYONE a chance to get in the right frame of mind, hence our lack of transfer activity. I think people are cataclysmically overreacting based on the limited information they have on our behind-the-scenes situation coupled with what they've seen (in a very small amount of games) and using their opinion to add them together and get some crazy figures. You are perfectly within your right to voice your opinion that you don't think NP is right, and I don't respect you any less for doing it. I just feel that some of the "evidence" brought forward to support some of these opinions is at best speculative and at worst pulled from the deepest depths of imagination. Personally, I'm of the opinion that NP we'll do a lot of good because of all of the positives I've seen from his career, the mentality of his teams always up there, and our squad has had an abundantly clear weak mindset ever since the Wembley loss. Can talk systems and tactics and talent all day, and our fears/hopes for how it may all change. But these talented players, playing in the systems they know and with tactics that they're familiar with have lost too many games in an utterly pathetic fashion to allow me, personally, to be comfortable with progressing in a similar vain as we have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 Pearson is trying to turn us into a mentally tough team that will have the resilience to get through the tough periods in the championship. If you think it's going to work after 3 games then you need to bang your head on a wall. Give him time and get behind him. Sometimes you have to sacrifice short term glory for long term glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.