Craig Forsyth

[rynny]

1 minute ago, Joel said:

No, I'm really not. He's a competent left back at this level but he isn't outstanding, far from it.

For one of the supposed best left backs in the division does it not say a lot that supposedly only Championship clubs are interested in him?

FTFY.

Not the greatest of sources for rumours, and how do we know that there are no prem teams? It seems more of a 2 + 2 = 280 assumption.

[Joel]

19 minutes ago, rynny said:

The team that shipped goals for fun? We only struggled defensively when we lost Estate, Mascarell and Thorne. Before that we had the third best defence in the league. Which included Forsyth at LB.

I find it funny with the international argument both ways. Whether you get picked or not is both entirely who is the better player. Managers have their favourites. And Strachan certainly does. Would Mulgrew and Brown be anywhere near the Scotland team if they didn't play for Celtic and would Bryson be as overlooked as he is if he played for Celtic, the same with Russell.

Warnock performed well in an under performing team but we're we under performing due to his role within the team? What came first the chicken or the egg? But he certainly wasn't an upgrade on Fozzy.

£500k? He is far more valuable to this team than that.

Fair point. McClaren lost the plot but I maintain that Forsyth isn't particularly strong defensively. He's a confidence player, when he's on it he's good but when he's off he can be dreadful. I think it was the game against Brentford at home last season where he literally couldn't pass the ball ten yards.

In regards to the internationals, even when he's played he has struggled which doesn't do him many favours.

Just because we've splashed the cash this year doesn't mean that other clubs don't know the genuine value of a player.

 

[Joel]

2 minutes ago, rynny said:

FTFY.

Not the greatest of sources for rumours, and how do we know that there are no prem teams? It seems more of a 2 + 2 = 280 assumption.

We don't. Would you expect a Premier League side to be in for him though?

[Joel]

9 minutes ago, nottingram said:

Probably during the two and a half years before his injury where only one player in this division gave him any real bother. And if shipping goals for fun is having the 7th best defensive record in the league in 14/15 (which is what I assume you're talking about) then I'll definitely take that, and even then he was the least of our problems. 

I take your point about internationals but he tended to be a fixture in squads at least.

And it is absolutely not fair to say that Warnock was an upgrade. Anyone with even an ounce of football intelligence could see how unbalanced the team was with Warnock in it and the trouble his creaky body had getting up and down the line.

If we offered £500k for George Friend what do you think Boro would say? They'd laugh you out of the country, and him and Forsyth are not too dissimilar in terms of style or ability.

Boro would be right to say no because Friend is genuinely an excellent full back.

[nottingram]

13 minutes ago, Joel said:

Boro would be right to say no because Friend is genuinely an excellent full back.

Him and Forsyth are much of a muchness. Friend is marginally better but not by more than a fraction.

I suspect we aren't going to agree though, opinions eh? 

[Joel]

9 minutes ago, nottingram said:

Him and Forsyth are much of a muchness. Friend is marginally better but not by more than a fraction.

I suspect we aren't going to agree though, opinions eh? 

Yeah, I don't think we are!

I'm not saying that Forsyth is a bad player, he's not but at the same time I can't remember him being anywhere near as good as some would make out.

Perhaps the figure I mentioned was wrong, upwards of that I'd be content with. Anything near £1million then certainly but I just don't think he's all that and particularly with a player that is so confidence driven, coming back from an injury like that can take time.

The reality is that come some point Mel is going to want to see the rewards for the money he's put into the academy. A lot was made of Max Lowe last season and he was unfortunate to get injured but you'd suspect that the owner wants Lowe around the squad this coming season. Forsyth is the more likely to go given that Olsson was only signed in January although I do wonder where that story initially came from...

[cheron85]

16 hours ago, nottingram said:

And it is absolutely not fair to say that Warnock was an upgrade. Anyone with even an ounce of football intelligence could see how unbalanced the team was with Warnock in it and the trouble his creaky body had getting up and down the line.

That's complete rubbish... Warnock was bad when he first arrived but was barely half fit at the time... Last season he was a more than decent LB for this level... Not as good as Fozzy or Olsson but better than 90% of the LBs in the league...

16 hours ago, Joel said:

No, I'm really not. He's a competent left back at this level but he isn't outstanding, far from it.

For one of the supposed best left backs in the division does it not say a lot that only Championship clubs are interested in him?

He's not outstanding... Unless you're comparing to his direct peers... He's not going to be playing for Madrid any time soon... But at this level he's one of the best LBs around...

How often do premier league clubs pick up players from the championship? Anyone come in for Rhodes or McCormack over the last couple of seasons? Premier League teams seem to rate 'top flight experience' over anything else... even though the likes of Southampton, Swansea, Bournemouth, Watford and especially Leicester have shown what a wealth of talent there is lower down and how the gap in quality is nowhere near as much as they seem to think...

[nottingram]

47 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

That's complete rubbish... Warnock was bad when he first arrived but was barely half fit at the time... Last season he was a more than decent LB for this level... Not as good as Fozzy or Olsson but better than 90% of the LBs in the league...

Defensively I'd agree but I find it odd that you can say it's complete rubbish that the team was unbalanced with him in. He couldn't get forward enough for what we needed at the time. Decent player but not what we needed.

[tomsdubs]

Warnock was limited and opposing teams knew this. Remember that home game where he always ended up with the ball and no options? The whole ground berating him, the opposition did this on purpose. They knew he couldn't hurt them or find an incisive pass.

[CornwallRam]

19 hours ago, Joel said:

When did he establish himself as a top three left back? During the start under McClaren three seasons ago or during his second year when we shipped goals for fun?

And he most certainly isn't a semi-regular international (if that's a thing). He has four caps and is behind Andrew Robertson and Charlie Mulgrew for a national side that failed to qualify for an expanded European competition. 

Like I said, he's been inconsistent whilst he's been here. Good at times but equally as poor during others. Would it be fair to say that Stephen Warnock was an upgrade to him when we lost him to injury? He was certainly no worse.

Probably a case of a player having his better games whilst out injured.

I don't think he's worth much more than £500k. He's competent at this level but nothing more.

Warnock was not an upgrade on Forsyth. He was poor for most of the time, and even in his 'good patch', he was so appallingly slow that he made our play disjointed and pedestrian. 

I think Forsyth just shades it over Olsson, but both are far better than Warnock.

[Joel]

2 hours ago, cheron85 said:

He's not outstanding... Unless you're comparing to his direct peers... He's not going to be playing for Madrid any time soon... But at this level he's one of the best LBs around...

How often do premier league clubs pick up players from the championship? Anyone come in for Rhodes or McCormack over the last couple of seasons? Premier League teams seem to rate 'top flight experience' over anything else... even though the likes of Southampton, Swansea, Bournemouth, Watford and especially Leicester have shown what a wealth of talent there is lower down and how the gap in quality is nowhere near as much as they seem to think...

Each to their own, I've said my piece on him. I don't think he's all that.

 

[mwram1973]

8 minutes ago, Joel said:

Each to their own, I've said my piece on him. I don't think he's all that.

 

And you thought Warnock was an upgrade?, we're talking about Craig here not Mickey, and even he was miles better than warnock.

I could run faster than Warnock.

[Joel]

2 minutes ago, mwram1973 said:

And you thought Warnock was an upgrade?, we're talking about Craig here not Mickey, and even he was miles better than warnock.

I could run faster than Warnock.

Where did I say that exactly?

[rynny]

19 hours ago, Joel said:

Fair point. McClaren lost the plot but I maintain that Forsyth isn't particularly strong defensively. He's a confidence player, when he's on it he's good but when he's off he can be dreadful. I think it was the game against Brentford at home last season where he literally couldn't pass the ball ten yards.

In regards to the internationals, even when he's played he has struggled which doesn't do him many favours.

Just because we've splashed the cash this year doesn't mean that other clubs don't know the genuine value of a player.

 

Other than Matty Phillips he has not struggled against any other winger in a Derby shirt. There have been times where his passing has been poor, but his 'get out' ball, his favourite and best pass was not on for that game or indeed that period, because Martin was not in the team. Wolves away was another where he had a shocking second half. But because he had a bad game/spell doesn't mean he is a bad player.

 

Think @mwram1973 is referring to this line.

19 hours ago, Joel said:

Would it be fair to say that Stephen Warnock was an upgrade to him when we lost him to injury?

 

[Joel]

1 minute ago, rynny said:

Other than Matty Phillips he has not struggled against any other winger in a Derby shirt. There have been times where his passing has been poor, but his 'get out' ball, his favourite and best pass was not on for that game or indeed that period, because Martin was not in the team. Wolves away was another where he had a shocking second half. But because he had a bad game/spell doesn't mean he is a bad player.

 

Think @mwram1973 is referring to this line.

 

No, far from a bad player but not to as good as he's being made out to be.

Perhaps this is just at Derby but it appears that players are either really good or really bad and there's no middle ground to opinions. Forsyth is alright. Nothing more or less. He's competent in his position but not outstanding, at least to my mind.

And yes, it appears he was. The line where I asked whether it was fair to say if Warnock was an upgrade, not that he was better.

[Leicester Ram]

Overall Forsyth's Derby career has mainly consisted of playing in a team that looked capable of going up:

13/14- A play-off final

14/15- A team that was top around March but collapsed due to injuries and the manager

15/16- A team that had a long unbeaten stretch at the start of the season.

So we know he's capable. Olsson by no means is a bad player, but I think Fozzy edges it.

He's got a better cross on him, he's better in the air and a stronger defender (anyone else remember him marking Antonio out of the game at PP in 14/15 before the midfield fell apart?).

He has momentary lapses in concentration and isn't the best passer under pressure, but under a better defensive manager he's less likely to be under the same pressure he was at the end of 14/15. Forsyth only seems to play badly when the midfield is weak, which is lucky because we have about 7 very good CM's on the books right now. 

He's capable of being a defensive full-back (The Wisdom role, if you like) and equally capable of playing as the attacking full-back (quite literally the Forsyth role).

Also, I don't buy the idea that because PL teams aren't in for him he's no good. Were there any PL teams in for Olsson? Have any PL teams really come in for Martin? Have we ever had a solid bid for Hughes from a PL team?

Are they ***** players for that? Not at all. Unfair criticism. Over the past few seasons he's clearly been one of the best LB's in the league and I think he'll flourish under Pearson.

 

[rynny]

6 minutes ago, Joel said:

No, far from a bad player but not to as good as he's being made out to be.

Perhaps this is just at Derby but it appears that players are either really good or really bad and there's no middle ground to opinions. Forsyth is alright. Nothing more or less. He's competent in his position but not outstanding, at least to my mind.

And yes, it appears he was. The line where I asked whether it was fair to say if Warnock was an upgrade, not that he was better.

I genuinely believe he has been by far our best LB since Chris Powell, until Olsson was signed at least, but I would still have Fozzy ahead of him. Just feel more secure defensively with him. Olsson has a bit of a habit of diving in to challenges when he shouldn't. I think all fans do it with their own players. We think a player is either good enough or not good enough then go to extremes to to give reasoning for it.

Isn't an upgrade something better? Otherwise it would be a downgrade?

[Joel]

9 minutes ago, Leicester Ram said:

Overall Forsyth's Derby career has mainly consisted of playing in a team that looked capable of going up:

13/14- A play-off final

14/15- A team that was top around March but collapsed due to injuries and the manager

15/16- A team that had a long unbeaten stretch at the start of the season.

So we know he's capable. Olsson by no means is a bad player, but I think Fozzy edges it.

He's got a better cross on him, he's better in the air and a stronger defender (anyone else remember him marking Antonio out of the game at PP in 14/15 before the midfield fell apart?).

He has momentary lapses in concentration and isn't the best passer under pressure, but under a better defensive manager he's less likely to be under the same pressure he was at the end of 14/15. Forsyth only seems to play badly when the midfield is weak, which is lucky because we have about 7 very good CM's on the books right now. 

He's capable of being a defensive full-back (The Wisdom role, if you like) and equally capable of playing as the attacking full-back (quite literally the Forsyth role).

Also, I don't buy the idea that because PL teams aren't in for him he's no good. Were there any PL teams in for Olsson? Have any PL teams really come in for Martin? Have we ever had a solid bid for Hughes from a PL team?

Are they ***** players for that? Not at all. Unfair criticism. Over the past few seasons he's clearly been one of the best LB's in the league and I think he'll flourish under Pearson.

 

All fair points but you could flip that and say that he's failed in all of those seasons too.

Admittedly, that's very harsh and of course he isn't solely to blame but for the two full seasons that he's had whilst we've challenged we have fallen short on both occasions.

[mwram1973]

33 minutes ago, Joel said:

Where did I say that exactly?

It's already been highlighted by Rynny so I won't bother quoting again. 

You asked whether it would be fair to say he was an upgrade, which you must of thought he was otherwise why ask the question when he obviously wasn't.

 

[Joel]

5 minutes ago, mwram1973 said:

It's already been highlighted by Rynny so I won't bother quoting again. 

You asked whether it would be fair to say he was an upgrade, which you must of thought he was otherwise why ask the question when he obviously wasn't.

 

Must have.