Richard Keogh - always got a mistake in him

[eddie]

2 hours ago, EastHertsRam said:

Damn...I can feel another ignore coming on...

The trouble starts when people then start to quote him.

[Ram@Lincoln]

3 hours ago, sage said:

It wasn't a foul. 

Oh come over, absolutely stone wall penalty. How he got away without even a yellow I don't know. For me, it's a straight red and penalty. The penalty claims mentioned in the other thread I think are ludicrous. They were never going to be penalties as there was zero in them at all.

[unclej]

Blokes like to be right. Especially so on the internet. On forums though, where presentations are made rather than counter arguments, a collective who cannot be proved right will often resort to name calling and ostrasising the person with the opposing view.  This is especially true when the minority present arguments that are persuasive.  If we really want to go back to the school ground, we might discuss ignoring the person specifically as an insult.

You have my view. I've made it very clear. I've heard nothing to make me think otherwise. In fact, I think Keoghs problems are rooted in slight arrogance and they are only going to get worse. He terrifies me. His constant mistakes will limit this club.

I wish I was wrong and you were all right.

 

 

[rynny]

12 hours ago, Ram@Lincoln said:

Oh come over, absolutely stone wall penalty. How he got away without even a yellow I don't know. For me, it's a straight red and penalty. The penalty claims mentioned in the other thread I think are ludicrous. They were never going to be penalties as there was zero in them at all.

It looks like he got the ball from the highlights. I always try to judge it from players reactions, and Christie gives him a pat on the back as to say good challenge.

 

[Mafiabob]

1 hour ago, unclej said:

Blokes like to be right. Especially so on the internet. On forums though, where presentations are made rather than counter arguments, a collective who cannot be proved right will often resort to name calling and ostrasising the person with the opposing view.  This is especially true when the minority present arguments that are persuasive.  If we really want to go back to the school ground, we might discuss ignoring the person specifically as an insult.

You have my view. I've made it very clear. I've heard nothing to make me think otherwise. In fact, I think Keoghs problems are rooted in slight arrogance and they are only going to get worse. He terrifies me. His constant mistakes will limit this club.

I wish I was wrong and you were all right.

 

 

Something I would agree with in couple of your paragraphs. 

However I don't agree about Keogh mistakes costing us.

[EnigmaRam]

2 hours ago, rynny said:

It looks like he got the ball from the highlights. I always try to judge it from players reactions, and Christie gives him a pat on the back as to say good challenge.

 

I totally agree. Looked like a penalty but in the highlights it looked like the ball did move ever so slightly which indicates there was contact from Keogh. Plus Cyrus reaction and everyone else just walking away.

[Comrade 86]

4 hours ago, unclej said:

Blokes like to be right. Especially so on the internet. On forums though, where presentations are made rather than counter arguments, a collective who cannot be proved right will often resort to name calling and ostrasising the person with the opposing view.  This is especially true when the minority present arguments that are persuasive.  If we really want to go back to the school ground, we might discuss ignoring the person specifically as an insult.

You have my view. I've made it very clear. I've heard nothing to make me think otherwise. In fact, I think Keoghs problems are rooted in slight arrogance and they are only going to get worse. He terrifies me. His constant mistakes will limit this club.

I wish I was wrong and you were all right.

 

 

You're absolutely spot on the money fella.  You are indeed part of a collective that who cannot be proved right.

[Sith Happens]

2 hours ago, EnigmaRam said:

I totally agree. Looked like a penalty but in the highlights it looked like the ball did move ever so slightly which indicates there was contact from Keogh. Plus Cyrus reaction and everyone else just walking away.

I cant see it move, so i guess the ref would need super hero vision to see it.

[eddie]

6 hours ago, unclej said:

Blokes like to be right. Especially so on the internet. On forums though, where presentations are made rather than counter arguments, a collective who cannot be proved right will often resort to name calling and ostrasising the person with the opposing view.  This is especially true when the minority present arguments that are persuasive.  If we really want to go back to the school ground, we might discuss ignoring the person specifically as an insult.

You have my view. I've made it very clear. I've heard nothing to make me think otherwise. In fact, I think Keoghs problems are rooted in slight arrogance and they are only going to get worse. He terrifies me. His constant mistakes will limit this club.

I wish I was wrong and you were all right.

 

 

If you are right, then a huge number of the fan base, a huge number of the supporters club members, a huge number of staff, including management and coaches at the club and a huge number of Derby County players must be wrong.

Do yourself a favour and look up "Occam's Razor" - and it just might explain why your argument got the incredulous reaction it did. Basically your opinion, which you are entitled to, is just a little bit 'out there'.

[Jortat]

He always has a crazy stare on for me .Hes as calm as a Geordie in a spelling test. Cant fault his effort but he does steam in when he should just take a more measured approach imo.

 

[LazloW]

11 hours ago, unclej said:

Blokes like to be right. Especially so on the internet. On forums though, where presentations are made rather than counter arguments, a collective who cannot be proved right will often resort to name calling and ostrasising the person with the opposing view.  This is especially true when the minority present arguments that are persuasive.  If we really want to go back to the school ground, we might discuss ignoring the person specifically as an insult.

You have my view. I've made it very clear. I've heard nothing to make me think otherwise. In fact, I think Keoghs problems are rooted in slight arrogance and they are only going to get worse. He terrifies me. His constant mistakes will limit this club.

I wish I was wrong and you were all right.

 

 

Actually, I think there have been a few counter arguments rather than presentations, particularly in terms of statistics which demonstrate that the defence as a whole has been very solid (hence your points about him bringing disaster down upon the team being questionable), the argument that there is no centre half alive who hasn't made a rash tackle or given a penalty away so perhaps expectations need to be checked and the argument that you have taken an extreme view that doesn't necessarily reflect the facts or any rational view of the game of football (and is at odds with - as eddie as pointed out - many other fans' views at this and other clubs where he has been POTY, his colleagues, his coaches and so on and so forth). This season, I dont think RK has been especially mistake prone (anymore than anybody else).  Last season he had a bit of a 'mare toward the end but to not be able to recognise the obvious improvement has to call into question the validity of the opinion.   

Everyone is entitled to 'not fancy' a player. There are loads of players who I haven't really liked that much but I find the whole 'my minds made up and I'm sticking to it' approach all a bit graceless and churlish.

[Dimmu]

You're on to something here. This Keogh-debate is vastly polarized and IMO it makes debate over it very poor. As I don't see myself in those camps, perhaps I should make my points heard more often. So here it goes...

About the last game... was it good/poor tackle or penalty or not is irrelevant. Those things happen. As happens mishit passes, which are the reason this thread is alive. I have no problems with those kind of mistakes, **** happens. Even Bayern M lost to Atletico 'cause of CB's bad pass which was well read by Torres. You didn't see Leicester's CB's doing such mistakes, because they didn't play like we do. If you sit deep and just defend and hoof, it is rather easy way to play (for defenders). Keogh couldn't do what Morgan and Huth does, but I'd be terrified and disappointed to see eiher of them playing for us... or at any other team who tries to play from the back. That's the reason Stoke sold Huth, their game has developed enourmously since Pulis.

So I'm fine those mistakes which Keogh gets slated here... but the ones which we doesn't talk about pisses me off greatly. Against Ipswich the biggest mistake was that poor decision and clearance which he tried to compensate with that penalty leading tackle. If you're a CB with the ball just next to sideline, you'r only job is to make sure you get back to your own place. Re-organize. What he does? hoofs it to middle and worst of all, low. Down the line and high would've been correct choice. Maybe give throw in from halfway-line, wouldn't really matter. But poor poor choice, especially as we are talking about experienced international player.

Another interesting point which should be commented is his last ditch tackling. Some of them are simply great, saving us from someone else's mistake. All credit to that. But about as often the reason is his own positioning and therefore he is simply late. I don't have stats (stattos?) but I wouldn't be suprised if most of the deflected goals was conceded by him. Simple comparison to Shackell who blocks hell of a lot of shots and is pretty much always positioned between ball and goal.

Final say... We need him with the way we play. No doubt. But those schoolboy errors and lack of concentration frustrates me pretty much every game. Get rid at least some of them and he could do well in PL too. At the moment I'm not sure about it.

[Duracell]

A question I've always asked and never been able to get an answer for, is how many goals has Keogh actually cost us?

I would be surprised if the answer is 20. From his entire time at the club.

Even if it's more, the question is, does his occasional mistake really outweigh the good he brings? His erratic play, diabolical leadership and calamitous tackle has broken a number of club records, such as clean sheets in a season and clean sheets in a row.

Opinions are so often formed by perceptions. Keogh talks funny, has perculiar body language and has a side-footed passing technique that would be mocked in a Year 4 PE class. Buxton will always be a slow, clumsy non-League player to some as well.

If you are a Derby fan under the age of 30, Buxton and Keogh are arguably the best centre back pairing you have ever seen. And the stats back that up pretty well.

[SaintRam]

Just now, Duracell said:

A question I've always asked and never been able to get an answer from, is how many goals has Keogh actually cost us?

I would be surprised if the answer is 20. From his entire time at the club.

Even if it's more, the question is, does his occasional mistake really outweigh the good he brings? His erratic play, diabolical leadership and calamitous tackle has broken a number of club records, such as clean sheets in a season and clean sheets in a row.

Opinions are so often formed by perceptions. Keogh talks funny, has perculiar body language and has a side-footed passing technique that would be mocked in a Year 4 PE class. Buxton will always be a slow, clumsy non-League player to some as well.

The truth is that if you are a Derby fan under the age of 30, Buxton and Keogh are almost probably the best and most successful centre back pairing you have ever seen.

I'm a fan of both, but the factual nature of that last sentence is a little depressing. 

[Duracell]

1 minute ago, SaintRam said:

I'm a fan of both, but the factual nature of that last sentence is a little depressing. 

Can I change it to "arguably"? That's how I meant it.

[SaintRam]

Just now, Duracell said:

Can I change it to "arguably"? That's how I meant it.

Sure, but it won't really effect its inherently depressing nature.

[Duracell]

Just now, SaintRam said:

Sure, but it won't really effect its inherently depressing nature.

Why is it depressing? We're talking about second division footballers, not world famine, no? 

 

[SaintRam]

4 minutes ago, Duracell said:

Why is it depressing? We're talking about second division footballers, not world famine, no? 

 

I said it's only a little depressing, in a football context. Not a 'bigger picture' context. In a 'bigger picture' context nothing regarding Derby County matters one iota. 

Just reminds of how long its been since the days where we had players we could actually refer to as "legends". Getting back there though  think a lot of this squad could earn that title. 

[rynny]

18 minutes ago, Duracell said:

A question I've always asked and never been able to get an answer for, is how many goals has Keogh actually cost us?

I would be surprised if the answer is 20. From his entire time at the club.

Even if it's more, the question is, does his occasional mistake really outweigh the good he brings? His erratic play, diabolical leadership and calamitous tackle has broken a number of club records, such as clean sheets in a season and clean sheets in a row.

Opinions are so often formed by perceptions. Keogh talks funny, has perculiar body language and has a side-footed passing technique that would be mocked in a Year 4 PE class. Buxton will always be a slow, clumsy non-League player to some as well.

If you are a Derby fan under the age of 30, Buxton and Keogh are arguably the best centre back pairing you have ever seen. And the stats back that up pretty well.

Being under 30 at the start of the season I would argue against that. I have seen quite a few pairings that would come before those 2. Stimac with a combination of Yates, McGrath, Laursen, Carbonari, Dailly, Spencer Prior, Rowett. Then you had West, Riggott and Higginbottom. Michael Johnson & Tom Huddlestone. Shackell & Barker looked promising but unfortunately didn't have a long enough period together. Moore and Leacock would have a shout as well.

[SaintRam]

1 minute ago, rynny said:

Being under 30 at the start of the season I would argue against that. I have seen quite a few pairings that would come before those 2. Stimac with a combination of Yates, McGrath, Laursen, Carbonari, Dailly, Spencer Prior, Rowett. Then you had West, Riggott and Higginbottom. Michael Johnson & Tom Huddlestone. Shackell & Barker looked promising but unfortunately didn't have a long enough period together. Moore and Leacock would have a shout as well.

You had me until Moore and Leacock.