Rams(dis)trust

[sage]

Maybe this a reflection of society as a whole but the lack of trust in anything MM (and prior to that SR) says is quite startling.

There seems to be a tendency to view public statements as lies or distortions until they are proven otherwise rather than the old adage of being innocent until proven guilty. An example being speculation over the last few days as to when the next manager will be appointed, when the first club statement clearly stated Wassall had the job until the end of the season. It now seems to be breaking news to some.

The belief that MM was picking the team was pretty widespread despite seeming incredulous to me. In the new world of social media opinion and speculation seem to become probabilities or 'facts' in minutes. It seems us keyboard warriors can repeat untruths and unfounded rumours ad nauseum but as soon as any statement contradicts our preconceptions we call 'bullsh1t'. 

Obviously 2 of the 3 amigos were economical with the truth and Glick was the King of Spin but MM whether you agree with his decisions or actions has struck me as being pretty honest. All clubs and officials will try to present themselves in the best light but it feels like cynicism is at an all time high.

Now I'm not suggesting blind faith, but the current level of distrust is not only unfair but damaging.   

[Chris Mills]

1 minute ago, sage said:

Maybe this a reflection of society as a whole but the lack of trust in anything MM (and prior to that SR) says is quite startling.

There seems to be a tendency to view public statements as lies or distortions until they are proven otherwise rather than the old adage of being innocent until proven guilty. An example being speculation over the last few days as to when the next manager will be appointed, when the first club statement clearly stated Wassall had the job until the end of the season. It now seems to be breaking news to some.

The belief that MM was picking the team was pretty widespread despite seeming incredulous to me. In the new world of social media opinion and speculation seem to become probabilities or 'facts' in minutes. It seems us keyboard warriors can repeat untruths and unfounded rumours ad nauseum but as soon as any statement contradicts our preconceptions we call 'bullsh1t'. 

Obviously 2 of the 3 amigos were economical with the truth and Glick was the King of Spin but MM whether you agree with his decisions or actions has struck me as being pretty honest. All clubs and officials will try to present themselves in the best light but it feels like cynicism is at an all time high.

Now I'm not suggesting blind faith, but the current level of distrust is not only unfair but damaging.   

???

Everyone hung off every word out of Mels mouth other than a select few who reserved judgement. The fact he said Clement could be the next Fergie, He will be here next season etc. then sacked him a few months later is probably the main contributing factor.

I don't think the distrust is unjustified.

[sage]

2 minutes ago, Chris Mills said:

???

Everyone hung off every word out of Mels mouth other than a select few who reserved judgement. The fact he said Clement could be the next Fergie, He will be here next season etc. then sacked him a few months later is probably the main contributing factor.

I don't think the distrust is unjustified.

I don't think a change of opinion is the same as a lie. I guess i'm just not from the 'epic fail' generation.  

[North East Ram]

I agree with you there Sage. Some of the grief he's getting is unreal. Especially when most of its based on wild supposition. Even if Mel has made some honest mistakes, in good faith, he must sometimes wonder why the eff he's even bothered! Hopefully, he's astute enough to understand that social media meltdowns don't represent ALL fans. But that's not to say that there's not some very perceptive, honest, passionate and knowledgable fans out here ont net too. Not me though, obviously. 

[Chris Mills]

2 minutes ago, sage said:

I don't think a change of opinion is the same as a lie. I guess i'm just not from the 'epic fail' generation.  

I don't think for a second Mel knew he was "lying" when he said that, he probably meant it. It just feels as though those sort of comments should be reserved if we're not going to 100% be acting upon them in the future. 

8 months is no time to make a judgement on whether someone is going to one day be Alex Ferguson after all!

I think that he is trying his best to make us a successful club, but the handling of some of it is questionable from the outside.

[sage]

7 minutes ago, Chris Mills said:

I don't think for a second Mel knew he was "lying" when he said that, he probably meant it. It just feels as though those sort of comments should be reserved if we're not going to 100% be acting upon them in the future. 

8 months is no time to make a judgement on whether someone is going to one day be Alex Ferguson after all!

I think that he is trying his best to make us a successful club, but the handling of some of it is questionable from the outside.

I think Duracell dealt with this very well in the 'reflection' thread. It wasn't about win 11 titles it was about putting his stamp on the club rather than a stamp on his c.v.

 

[Chester40]

I think my issue with 'trust'.. is that 'until a couple of weeks ago' (was that the phrase?) MM said he supported PC. But then he realised PC wasnt buying into the Derby Way.

Obviously that kinda coincides with the real slide in results. Which suggests when we were winning it didn't matter too much? but then suddenly it was a sackable offence. Feels like the Derby Way and results not mattering is a bit of a convenient excuse for oh, sacking a manager over results - not that I'm totally against that!

[tomsdubs]

17 minutes ago, sage said:

I don't think a change of opinion is the same as a lie. I guess i'm just not from the 'epic fail' generation.  

Indeed. We seem to live in a generation where every little thing you do is recorded, people go back and reference the past as contextless examples of why you are in the wrong. PC was here 8 months, Mel obviously had faith he'd adapt and recently I guess he realised that wasn't going to happen.

Shame on Mel for changing his opinion and making a big call eh?

 

[Chris Mills]

2 minutes ago, tomsdubs said:

Indeed. We seem to live in a generation where every little thing you do is recorded, people go back and reference the past as contextless examples of why you are in the wrong. PC was here 8 months, Mel obviously had faith he'd adapt and recently I guess he realised that wasn't going to happen.

Shame on Mel for changing his opinion and making a big call eh?

 

Faith he'd adapt?! We were top of the league in December. 

This was the first real slide in results from Clement other than the start of the season which he (I) turned around admirably. Hardly was given time to adapt for this recent spell.

[top 6 finish]

Its not just the owner though is it? Nearly all the bad mouthing of the manager on this

forum has only happened in the last 2 months,most of it after he was sacked.All the

moans,groans and gripes about Clement have been in hindsight.Nobody was complaining

when we went ona19 match run with only 1 defeat,that took us to the top,with 8 blank

sheets out of 10 games.Apparently that was all rubbish and not the "Derby way."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tomsdubs]

1 minute ago, Chris Mills said:

Faith he'd adapt?! We were top of the league in December. 

This was the first real slide in results from Clement other than the start of the season which he (I) turned around admirably. Hardly was given time to adapt for this recent spell.

Same mistakes all season, same poor attacking all season. Safe balls, back passes. The Brum home game was like watching a cross between a Nige side and a Schteve end of last season side sprinkled with a load of cash. He never improved and went on from grinding out wins. I didn't see any good signs he was going to put on another run, especially one where we actually played good football.

[Van der MoodHoover]

10 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

I think my issue with 'trust'.. is that 'until a couple of weeks ago' (was that the phrase?) MM said he supported PC. But then he realised PC wasnt buying into the Derby Way.

Obviously that kinda coincides with the real slide in results. Which suggests when we were winning it didn't matter too much? but then suddenly it was a sackable offence. Feels like the Derby Way and results not mattering is a bit of a convenient excuse for oh, sacking a manager over results - not that I'm totally against that!

Agree it doesn't come across well. And being a natural conspiracy theorist I personally think there's some hidden event that caused mm to snap. We'll probably never know exactly what that was. 

Even though it looks odd I can't sign up to the "based on results " argument. 

Because were that the case surely mac would have been shown the door around mid march? Or even PC himself at the end of Aug. 

And further - if it was just results then surely there would be a snap appointment of a "results focused " tmanager for the rest of the season? 

So no, not just results for me. But I don't buy the argument precisely as spelt out either. So idle uninformed speculation it will have to be ☺

[Monkeytennis12345]

Or maybe we just aren't being given the 'real' reasons for PC's dismissal. 

 

[May Contain Nuts]

"I think we've all been guilty of making one or two mistakes along the way,  but I'm sure both parties will learn from these mistakes and take those lessons with us going forward"

That's all he needed to say, instead he deflected every ounce of criticism or suggestion of fault onto other people. A little humility goes a long way.

[harryram]

8 minutes ago, Chris Mills said:

Faith he'd adapt?! We were top of the league in December. 

This was the first real slide in results from Clement other than the start of the season which he (I) turned around admirably. Hardly was given time to adapt for this recent spell.

Think more than the results it was the absolute lack of desire the players were showing. None of them looking happy all low of confidence and I just don't think PC knew how to get them firing again. The start of the season we couldn't win but in almost every one of them games we were the better side. Take Charlton game if I remember we had over 20 attempts but recently we were lucky to have more than 5

[eddie]

15 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

I think my issue with 'trust'.. is that 'until a couple of weeks ago' (was that the phrase?) MM said he supported PC. But then he realised PC wasnt buying into the Derby Way.

Obviously that kinda coincides with the real slide in results. Which suggests when we were winning it didn't matter too much? but then suddenly it was a sackable offence. Feels like the Derby Way and results not mattering is a bit of a convenient excuse for oh, sacking a manager over results - not that I'm totally against that!

 

Trust cuts both ways - but when results are good, people can be prepared to turn a blind eye.

As for me, I'm in limbo at the moment. I'm relieved that we won't have to watch the horrible, attritional stuff of the last few weeks any more - but not exactly filled with optimism that results overall will change for the better.

Where I differ from a lot of you is that I am older than most on here and don't do knee-jerk, so I'm not going to go from thinking that Mel is the best thing since sliced bread to being the worst thing since someone invented the turd sandwich. I'm looking forward to Saturday though - and I haven't felt that way for a couple of months.

[RamNut]

I was reading the fulham programme and the half season review.

40 points from 17 games sept - dec.

Then beat fulham and went top.

sam rush praising pc in the programme notes. 

Its wierd to think where we are 6 weeks later.

[Duracell]

5 minutes ago, eddie said:

thinking that Mel is the best thing since sliced bread to being the worst thing since someone invented the turd sandwich. 

Think most of us are too young to remember that one, eddie.

 

[davenportram]

Just now, RamNut said:

I was reading the fulham programme and the half season review.

40 points from 17 games sept - dec.

Then beat fulham and went top.

sam rush praising pc in the programme notes. 

Its wierd to think where we are 6 weeks later.

Not really

 

Praising the manager or the apparent improvement in performances, an improvement that wasn't maintained and as such he the manager's remit hadn't been fulfilled.

 

Mind I would say that the position at Christmas was false because we haven't played well all season, and there has been a downward trend in our ratings (again small sample I know) all season

[RadioactiveWaste]

The way things are said in a PR context these days from every angle are usually so seeped in spin, best corporate face etc etc, a healthy scepticism is often the best way.

Things are very rarely "lies" but the truth does get stretched a lot to promote "your" interests, for example, politicians exchange not-quite-untrue statements and suppositions as an art form and advertising usually isn't concerned with much more than getting the sale over the line.

So, even if Mel is being completely strait bat to all of it, he's still going to a reasonable amount of sceptic analysis. Add to that what he's saying doesn't appear to match conventional footballing wisdom.

A few conclusions I draw are:

Mel is 100% comfortable with us not going up, he can cover the loss and we won't be at a huge disadvantage because of it.

Mel 100% wants to be the chairman and owner of a Premier League Derby County BUT having been a party to the poison dwarf mis-adventure would rather go up when everything is "right" (in his opinion). Conventional wisdom is get up when you can and it's not appeared out of nowhere. I don't think any club goes up 100% naturally ready for the top flight and without making a huge push to do it.

We're not getting the full story, something was amiss behind the scenes - whatever it was, the club are taking care to be best foot forward etc - rumours are bound to come about but not seemingly from the club itself.

For better, for worse it's Mels way or the highway. Can't help but think this, however well intentioned, will cause problems going forward. I think trust in the football staff needs to be given. Mel will say it was but there might have been an element of "give him enough rope to hang himself".