10 greatest footballers of all time

[Ovis aries]

​But what's your point that Ronaldo 'did it' with Manchester United? What has the Premier League got to do with anything?

The only way you can compare Messi and Ronaldo is to compare them playing in exactly the same competitions.

SO YOU SAY , I DISAGREE

They both feature in La Liga, the Champions League and the World Cup - and Messi comes out on top in all three. If that isn't enough, the Argentine magician has four Ballon d'Or awards (will be 5 next December) to Ronaldo's three.

If that isn't enough, Messi has scored more goals, assisted more goals, won more individual awards, won more collective awards etc.

You can simply say that you think Maradona, Pele etc. are better than Messi based on ability. No problem. But to say Messi hasn't won a World Cup or 'done it' in the PL as your reasoning for him not being the greatest is utterly ludicrous.

NOT TO ME ITS NOT .

 

 

 I am not comparing the two , I am asking would Messi be the same player with a different club in a different country , I know Ronaldo was as good , you do not know Messi would be, and to me it is a valid point , you just have Messiytis

 

[Anon]

 I am not comparing the two , I am asking would Messi be the same player with a different club in a different country , I know Ronaldo was as good , you do not know Messi would be, and to me it is a valid point , you just have Messiytis

 

​If Messi played in a league that wasn't consistently the strongest or second strongest on the planet your argument would hold weight. It doesn't make any logical sense to argue that a player should prove himself in league with lower standard opposition to the one he currently plays in.

[Ovis aries]

​If Messi played in a league that wasn't consistently the strongest or second strongest on the planet your argument would hold weight. It doesn't make any logical sense to argue that a player should prove himself in league with lower standard opposition to the one he currently plays in.

​Where has this Premier league not as good as La Liga suddenly appeared from , I don't believe so .

[Anon]

​Where has this Premier league not as good as La Liga suddenly appeared from , I don't believe so .

​It's appeared from the trend of Spanish clubs consistently outperforming their English counterparts in both European cup competitions.

[Sexydadbod]

​Where has this Premier league not as good as La Liga suddenly appeared from , I don't believe so .

​Because the standard of the premier league has been so poor in recent years. Both David Moyes and Gareth Bale have said recently that they are shocked at how much better the spanish league is to the premier league. 

[Ovis aries]

​It's appeared from the trend of Spanish clubs consistently outperforming their English counterparts in both European cup competitions.

​That does not necessarily mean its a better league maybe just the top two or three teams are better , but which league has more cannon fodder.

[Posh Ram]

​Again though, it requires that you simply discard the achievements of one arbitrarily. Just because you're from Europe, and the European Competitions are now the best doesn't mean that achievements in the past in other leagues are suddenly meaningless. 

Again, you discard his achievements simply because they weren't in the region your from. Going by that logic we may as well discard all English football records until the 90s, because the English leagues were nothing special. We may as well discard all of football. 

In any case, you mention the Intercontinental Cup:

From it's birth to 1980: South America 11 - 8 Europe

1981 until it finished: South America 9 - 11 Europe

Europe of the day wasn't anything special. To discard's Pelé's achievements for Santos is exactly the same as discarding Cruyff's for Ajax or Barcelona. 6 Brazilian Titles, 2 Copa Libertadores, 2 Intercontinental Cups, 1 Intercontinental Super Cup, 3 World Cups (though he only played on game in 62). There's more than that as well, but may as well keep it simple. He also holds numerous scoring records, but ultimately the point is that he holds the reputation he has for a reason. I get that some people like being edgy, and "Pelé wasn't that good" is a good way of going about it, but the facts simply don't align with it. I wouldn't call him the best player of all time anymore, that honour most definitely goes to Messi, but to not even have him in the top ten is utterly bizarre. 

I still think he was a fantastic player, as I said he probably falls just outside my top 10. But I think it's a bit blasé when some declare him as the greatest ever when we have a very small sample-size of dominating the best players in the world. I'm not entirely sure you can say the same for Cruyff, because he played in a slightly different era, as the best South Americans had begun to migrate to Europe.

Of course, it's almost impossible to compare players from different eras. In 50 years time we'll likely have a European Super League, and people will probably dismiss Messi and Ronaldo as not having played against the best, and Pele will have the legendary status of someone like W.G. Grace. 

I just find it very surprising that he's said to be anywhere near Messi's level when many Brazilians see Garrincha as the better player, and yet most football fans have no idea who Garrincha was.

 

[Ovis aries]

 

I just find it very surprising that he's said to be anywhere near Messi's level when many Brazilians see Garrincha as the better player, and yet most football fans have no idea who Garrincha was.

 

​"The little bird", with the bowed legs , fantastic player .

[PrivateDerby]

Only way to find out is to make today's lot wear rigger boots and play with a medicine ball on a uneven muddy field and pay them fook all.

They'd all pack it in after the first match of the season. 

I saw some sort of formula that was used to find the best players from the last 100 years, no mention of Ronaldo or Messi... 

[Ted McMinn Football Genius]

1. Pele

2. Eusebio 

3. Messi

4. Maradona 

5. Platini 

6. Beckham

7. Zidane 

8. Figo 

9. Gascoigne 

10. Gullitt 

[Alph]

I know a lot of people will say players now would struggle to play on muddy 1960's pitches etc. 

But do you know the difference in pace, athleticism and fitness now? It's improved massively in just 20 years. The science behind it is unreal. 

Not that they weren't great players. Just it was a different game. 

What would Messi think to a 1960's tackle? Well, what would a 1960's CB look like after 90 mins running after Ronaldo. Just different. The ground covered by players now,  they're stripped of everything. That's why they're injured all the time. Putting them on a 70's Baseball Ground would kill them. Even a heavy pitch like Blackpool causes muscle issues etc. 

Sounds mardy doesn't it? But in return, believe it or not, footballers are fitter and faster than ever. 

Bet Pele wouldn't get the jump on a player like Sergio Ramos. But after one fair 1970's tackle from Dave Mackay do you think Messi would fancy getting close again?

What fair criteria can we use? Ronaldo and Messi are incredible though. I prefer Messi because he's more than a goalscorer. If he never scored another goal he'd still be a top player.

[Albert]

I know a lot of people will say players now would struggle to play on muddy 1960's pitches etc. 

But do you know the difference in pace, athleticism and fitness now? It's improved massively in just 20 years. The science behind it is unreal. 

Not that they weren't great players. Just it was a different game. 

What would Messi think to a 1960's tackle? Well, what would a 1960's CB look like after 90 mins running after Ronaldo. Just different. The ground covered by players now,  they're stripped of everything. That's why they're injured all the time. Putting them on a 70's Baseball Ground would kill them. Even a heavy pitch like Blackpool causes muscle issues etc. 

Sounds mardy doesn't it? But in return, believe it or not, footballers are fitter and faster than ever. 

Bet Pele wouldn't get the jump on a player like Sergio Ramos. But after one fair 1970's tackle from Dave Mackay do you think Messi would fancy getting close again?

What fair criteria can we use? Ronaldo and Messi are incredible though. I prefer Messi because he's more than a goalscorer. If he never scored another goal he'd still be a top player.

​This is the thing, players can only play what is put in front of them. The conditions are different, but in more ways than one. It's not just "oh, the pitch was harder to play on", you also have to consider how the game has changed in that time. It's like when people go about talking about players like Bradman in cricket, and completely ignore the difference in the pitches there. The funniest I've ever seen is "how would Bradman have fared on a dusty wicket in India?" You can only judge a player by their era, and the simple point is that there have been some truly exceptional footballers in the past.

Whether the conditions then or now were harder is not the point, there simply haven't been players of their calibre, and the ability to completely dominate the game and in the scoring charts like Ronaldo or Messi. There have been players with exceptional records in the past, but there haven't been players who break the bell curve so completely in that regard. It's not to the extent that Bradman broke cricket's batting bell curve, but it is still something special. 

In any case, if we're just going to talk goalscoring between those two (and there's far more about their games than that), their last 5 seasons (all competitions):

Cristiano Ronaldo: 273 goals in 261 games

Lionel Messi: 280 goals in 262 games

So Messi edges that, but I wouldn't really call either the better goalscorer. Messi can produce a goal with pure magic, but I'd say that Ronaldo is probably the better natural goalscorer, that is, being in the right place at the right time to score. As for assists it's 129 in that period of time for Messi, 83 for Ronaldo. What is striking about the two of them though is that Ronaldo is so damn consistent year on year:

Season: Goals / Assists (Games)

14/15: 54/15 (50)

13/14: 51/19 (47)

12/13: 55/14 (55)

11/12: 60/17 (55)

10/11: 53/18 (54)

Then compare that to Messi:

14/15: 53/30 (51)

13/14: 41/16 (46)

12/13: 60/18 (50)

11/12: 73/37 (60)

10/11: 53/28 (55)

That's no slight on Messi of course, particularly when "less consistent" here means scoring 73 goals with 37 assists in 60 games one season. It's just interesting that Ronaldo is so consistent. 

[Alph]

They're both unreal really aren't they? 

I mean some people call La Liga down and say there's only a couple of good teams in it. It's not that Barcelona and Madrid are good and the rest are rubbish. It's Barcelona and Madrid are perfect and the rest are pretty good. 

I mean it's not like Messi and Ronaldo are bullies. They score goals against anyone. They're capable of bearing any defence. It's not like you can accuse either of missing in big games and collecting goals against minnows. They can't help it that the club's they play far are better than anyone. Sure they'll be beaten. That's why we follow football because the best team doesn't always win. But with the exception of Bayern Munich, Barca and Real are just better. 

Basically I'm saying those scoring records are not to be scoffed at. They're goals scored against anyone and everyone. Even internationally they have strong records. 

[Alph]

Has Nesta had a mention in this thread? 

I thought he was as great as Maldini. Not for as long, but still for a long time. Really a great defender. I think it showed how good Maldini and Nesta really were when they aged. When pace left them it really put their decision making in the spotlight. They didn't get "found out". There was no weakness. Alan Hansen always banging on about getting your distances right. These two had all that sorted because you don't play at the level Maldini played at 40 without being a football genius. Likewise Nesta had some injuries that reduced him to a slow coach but he still remained the CB every CB wanted to be. 

Cannavaro, Nesta and Maldini. 

Have you seen what they've won between them and how many matches they've played? 

[Albert]

Has Nesta had a mention in this thread? 

I thought he was as great as Maldini. Not for as long, but still for a long time. Really a great defender. I think it showed how good Maldini and Nesta really were when they aged. When pace left them it really put their decision making in the spotlight. They didn't get "found out". There was no weakness. Alan Hansen always banging on about getting your distances right. These two had all that sorted because you don't play at the level Maldini played at 40 without being a football genius. Likewise Nesta had some injuries that reduced him to a slow coach but he still remained the CB every CB wanted to be. 

Cannavaro, Nesta and Maldini. 

Have you seen what they've won between them and how many matches they've played? 

If I had to name a "best of all time" XI, Maldini would definitely make it in, Cannavaro and Nesta are certainly contenders as well. The real question is how you line such a team up. I would put C. Ronaldo, Messi and Pelé as a front 3, Yashin as the keeper of course, but then it becomes a really touch set of choices. The problem there is though, that people tend to remember forwards more than other positions, and up top you could name an absolute stockpile of players. Maradona, Eusébio, Garrincha, di Stefano, Puskas, Müller, Best... you could go all day. The problem is that I hate seeing teams stacked with forwards to get "the best" in, when really what's happened is people have overvalued the importance of the forward to the point they've built a team of them. You could get away with Cruyff in a midfield 3, but you really couldn't then go and shove in Zidane, Platini or Maradona. If I were pushed to it, at this point I'd go with:​

GK: Yashin

DR: Carlos Alberto 

DL: Maldini

DC: Moore

DC: Beckenbauer

MC: Matthäus

MC: ???

MC: Cruyff

LW: C. Ronaldo

CF: Pelé

LW: Messi

That third midfield position is the one that I'm never quite sure of. You could pick someone else at centrehalf and have Beckenbauer there, you could make Ronaldo or Messi a striker along side Pelé and have another winger, such as Garrincha or Maradona or have Ronaldo and Messi as wingers and have another striker there such as Puskas, Maradona or Eusébio. But that's about the point I'd be at with such a team, but whilst the rest of very well known and of great reputation, you'd get into massive debates trying to play a third midfielder that wasn't basically a forward in any case. The problem being though, that having Yashin, Moore, Beckenbauer, Carlos Alberto, Maldini and Matthäus as the "backline" so to speak, the rest of the team would be strikers and playmakers, which not only would be unbalanced in the real world, but again just continues to over emphasise forwards. 

In any case, my personal preference would be more to sticking Cannavaro at centrehalf and having Beckenbauer in front of the back 4 to make up that final place, but I'm sure everyone has their own take on it. 

They're both unreal really aren't they? 

I mean some people call La Liga down and say there's only a couple of good teams in it. It's not that Barcelona and Madrid are good and the rest are rubbish. It's Barcelona and Madrid are perfect and the rest are pretty good. 

I mean it's not like Messi and Ronaldo are bullies. They score goals against anyone. They're capable of bearing any defence. It's not like you can accuse either of missing in big games and collecting goals against minnows. They can't help it that the club's they play far are better than anyone. Sure they'll be beaten. That's why we follow football because the best team doesn't always win. But with the exception of Bayern Munich, Barca and Real are just better. 

Basically I'm saying those scoring records are not to be scoffed at. They're goals scored against anyone and everyone. Even internationally they have strong records. ​

They are something special. It'll be an interesting act to follow, that's for sure. I'd think they've got a good few years left in them though. Ronaldo in particular doesn't look to be slowing down yet, and his nose for goal isn't something that's going to disappear with age, though his physicality might start to. To be honest despite the age gap of what, 2 years, I'd actually expect them to retire around the same time. 

[Bris Vegas]

I'm quite surprised Xavi or Iniesta aren't ever mentioned as possible best XI players.

The duo arguably changed modern football, and they've won every trophy going and was at the heart of both Barcelona's 'best ever team' and Spain's history making three-in-a-row success.

I know they both haven't retired yet, but they've IMO done more in football than some others.

I think Xavi has accomplished more than Zidane for instance. Zidane naturally gets the plaudits because he's a more attacking player, but that isn't Xavi's fault.

You could replace Zinane with fellow attacking greats - but can you say the same about Xavi? 

[Mostyn6]

@Bris Vegas it's hard to pick players that don't stand out. you mention players that are part of a well-oiled machine. They were part of Spain and Barca sides that actually became predictable and sometimes boring. IN a way Mayweather will never be regarded as a great boxer, those players won't spark passion in football fans as single players. In the same way a reliable Japanese car that never breaks down and is fuel efficient and everything you ever want will never be held in the same esteem as a ferrari.

[Posh Ram]

Imo at the end of their careers Xavi and Iniesta will go down top 30 all-time. Terrific players.

[sage]

Thought this might make an interesting thread. Who, in your opinion, are the 10 greatest football players of all-time.

I think it'll be interesting to see where Messi ranks - in my opinion, he's the greatest ever, but I'd imagine some will feel differently.

I'm also interested to see how much Pele crops up. In my opinion he's not up there - he scored a lot of goals in a Mickey Mouse league, never proved himself against elite competition on a regular basis, and even his World Cup wins were on pretty stacked Brazil teams. The Champions League/European Cup is a much better competition, despite the passion and excitement of the World Cup.

Here's my personal top 10:

1. Lionel Messi

2. Cristiano Ronaldo

3. Diego Maradona

4. Johann Cruyff

5. Franz Beckenbauer

6. Michel Platini

7. Alfredo Di Stefano

8. Ferenc Puskas

9. Ronaldo

10. Zinedine Zidane

​How old are you out of interest?

[Posh Ram]

​How old are you out of interest?

​I'm 26, 27 in December.