Albert Bueno

[ChaddesdenRam]

You don't need strength in the NPC..

 

If you're a good player, you'd easily be able to play in this league..

 

Swansea when they went up were hardly full of 6 footers.. In fact, what strength does the likes of Dyer, Scott Sinclair, Joe Allen, Alan Tate, Leon Britton, Angel Rangel etc. have?

 

If you're trying to suggest that Hughes and Bueno would be useless together then you're absolutley bonkers.. I bet if Real Valladolid were in the NPC then they'd claim over 100 points.. Yet they're all small technical players..

 

If you play to your players strengths.. Especially technical players.. Then you're in for a winner..

 

Imagine a midfield 5 of Ward, Bueno, Commons, Hughes and Idiakez.. Are you saying that those 'weak' players would struggle?

 

In a 442 with 2 CM's if they were Bueno and Hughes i think we would get overrun.

 

Bueno was quality here but he played in a 4231 formation as the central CAM. i don't think he would cut it at CM hence why he plays in the pocket off the striker for Valladolid. He needs the DM protection behind him. On the ball i am not questioning their technical ability etc we would be superb going forward. You name players like Britton and Allen. These are different deep lying midfield players that are really good busy little players that can defend very well. Bueno is not that. 

 

You say imagine a midfield 5 of ward etc etc, well for starters that was not my point i simply stated Bueno and Hughes as a 2 in midfield and secondly that would be a quality midfield 5 because Idiakez would be the extra strength required in a central role. 

[Mr Tibbs]

What does that post boil down to in layman's terms, we can't afford the luxury of quality?

If it can't be consistent, yes. We haven't got a team that's good enough to play with such a player to cater for the times he doesn't perform/turn up, never have had one.

Decent pair of eyes and half a brain and it'd be pretty easy to extract that from my replies. Lets ignore that and act the fool though!

No sense in other words.

Keep up the good work myth buster

[EastKentRam]

If it can't be consistent, yes. We haven't got a team that's good enough to play with such a player to cater for the times he doesn't perform/turn up, never have had one.

Decent pair of eyes and half a brain and it'd be pretty easy to extract that from my replies. Lets ignore that and act the fool though!

Keep up the good work myth buster

 

Any player that can offer quality consistently doesnt play at this level.

 

If we cant cater for quality players then I dont really see how you ever expect us to get any better?

 

Are you saying our current players are so consistent they cant be dropped or replaced? I'd rather have an inconsistent quality player than an inconsistent work horse.

 

Nobody is acting the fool, your point makes little sense. 

[Bris Vegas]

In a 442 with 2 CM's if they were Bueno and Hughes i think we would get overrun.

 

Bueno was quality here but he played in a 4231 formation as the central CAM. i don't think he would cut it at CM hence why he plays in the pocket off the striker for Valladolid. He needs the DM protection behind him. On the ball i am not questioning their technical ability etc we would be superb going forward. You name players like Britton and Allen. These are different deep lying midfield players that are really good busy little players that can defend very well. Bueno is not that. 

 

You say imagine a midfield 5 of ward etc etc, well for starters that was not my point i simply stated Bueno and Hughes as a 2 in midfield and secondly that would be a quality midfield 5 because Idiakez would be the extra strength required in a central role. 

 

I guess we both kind of put that to bed..

 

I'm sure if Nigel had Bueno and Hughes on his books he'd fit them into a system to get the best out of any of them..

 

Bueno and Hguhes a midfield 2 in a 4-4-2 isn't really worth thinking about as I'm sure no manager (even Paul jewell) would play them as a midfield 2 pairing.. I'm sure any manager at this level would love to have them and played correctly those 2 together could be the difference between midtable and playoffs given they could be that influential..

 

As for Swansea I don't think they ever played 4-4-2.. It was also a 4-3-2-1 with wide wingers in Dyer and Sinclair which can be changed to 4-2-3-1 with an extra AM.. I mentioned a while back but Bueno in that Swansea side or at Brighton would flourish..

 

He was simply the scapegoat for NC's horrendous bottle job where he changed an attacking 4-2-3-1 into a defensive 4-4-2 off the back of 3 majorly unlucky defeats against Norwich, Bristol City and Reading.. He bottled it in December bigtime and by changing it around forced the likes of Cywka, Commons, Bueno out.. They were never going to be the same players in a flat defensive hoofball 4-4-2 formation, I can't believe people are even questioning his ability..

 

Like I mentioned earlier, Iniesta would have made little impact in that side

[ChaddesdenRam]

I guess we both kind of put that to bed..

 

I'm sure if Nigel had Bueno and Hughes on his books he'd fit them into a system to get the best out of any of them..

 

Bueno and Hguhes a midfield 2 in a 4-4-2 isn't really worth thinking about as I'm sure no manager (even Paul jewell) would play them as a midfield 2 pairing.. I'm sure any manager at this level would love to have them and played correctly those 2 together could be the difference between midtable and playoffs given they could be that influential..

 

As for Swansea I don't think they ever played 4-4-2.. It was also a 4-3-2-1 with wide wingers in Dyer and Sinclair which can be changed to 4-2-3-1 with an extra AM.. I mentioned a while back but Bueno in that Swansea side or at Brighton would flourish..

 

He was simply the scapegoat for NC's horrendous bottle job where he changed an attacking 4-2-3-1 into a defensive 4-4-2 off the back of 3 majorly unlucky defeats against Norwich, Bristol City and Reading.. He bottled it in December bigtime and by changing it around forced the likes of Cywka, Commons, Bueno out.. They were never going to be the same players in a flat defensive hoofball 4-4-2 formation, I can't believe people are even questioning his ability..

 

Like I mentioned earlier, Iniesta would have made little impact in that side

 

 

Yep both of us are right.

 

All I eluded to was the first person put imagine Bueno and Hughes together and I said that wouldn't work

[Mr Tibbs]

Any player that can offer quality consistently doesnt play at this level.

 

If we cant cater for quality players then I dont really see how you ever expect us to get any better?

 

Are you saying our current players are so consistent they cant be dropped or replaced? I'd rather have an inconsistent quality player than an inconsistent work horse.

 

Nobody is acting the fool, your point makes little sense. 

 

I'm not saying we cant cater for quality players though, am I? Just Bueno.. (Cywka too if we're being pedantic). There's plenty of players at this level that are quality and when they have a bad dip or don't play well they still add something to the team. That's the difference, Bueno didn't. Hence the luxury tag I gave him. 

As I've said in previous posts, there are quality players out there that won't go missing like Bueno did, whether Nige can find one or two is another question. 

 

As for the team, no, of course they aren't that consistent that they couldn't be dropped or replaced.. that's absolute drivel at any level of football bar a few players in the world. If we had different players (better players too), had a different style of play etc then my angle on Bueno might change, in this current set up he would be a failure. 

 

I'm sick of watching Bryson, Hendrick and co. get the piss taken out of them more often then not away from home, would Bueno change this? He'd make it worse, he's far from what we need IMO.

 

In a dream world where we have better players and play a formation where Bueno would be effective then yeah, bring him back. Back to reality, he wouldn't come and he wouldn't fit in even if he did. 

[Alph]

Btw, sorry to dip in.

I find myself agreeing with EKR and Mr Tibbs quite often and to see you two arguing.... Honestly fellas, I think you'll find you both kind of share the same philosophy and views.

Like the half way point between accepting the dominance and control of possession football and accepting that the pace and aggression of the English game doesn't always accommodate it with anything less than very good natural ball players.

If Mr Tibbs can just get his butler to drag EKR out of the Amex I'm sure you'll find you agree a lot.

Next Cumbrian and Bris will be arguing about whether Martinez is better than Pulis.

[networker1884]

What I'd give to have this guy back. He'd be very good in our current team, him and Hughes 

It's 'Alberto' btw...just sayin.

[Ambitious]

 I tend to get the feeling if a player is foreign - they're ridiculously over-rated.

 

If people are THIS serious about Bueno, being the best player we've had in the past 20 years... I just don't know what to say, just because he was spanish and came from Real Madrid, doesn't mean **** all.

 

Rodri from Barca, he came over and failed at Wednesday, whilst showing 'nice touches'.

 

Bueno showed glimpses of being a quality player, but overall he wasn't cut out for the division and was massively ineffective! 

[SillyBilly]

Bueno showed glimpses of being a quality player, but overall he wasn't cut out for the division and was massively ineffective! 

 

So was Kinkladze. But I'd be renewing my season ticket if we had a player like him. Certain players put bums on seats.

 

Surprised me when Clough said, when asked, that if he could pick one Prem player it'd be David Silva. I thought James Milner would be more appropiate...

[Leicester Ram]

It's 'Alberto' btw...just sayin.

 

 

I didn't start the thread, I put this in his thread on Transfer Talk, some mod clods done it.

[Albert]

If Bueno were signed permanently when he first signed, we'd have been slagging him off from the moment his form dipped. If Sammon had been on loan and was going back at the end of the season, we'd be desperate to get him back and make threads about him in many years time, regardless of how he did after. We tend to want what we isn't ours, and in this case it seems particularly silly.

[Alph]

Surprised me when Clough said, when asked, that if he could pick one Prem player it'd be David Silva. I thought James Milner would be more appropiate...

Same here.

Gave me hope though that maybe the team Nigel wants isn't a team of runners after all.

[ChaddesdenRam]

 If Sammon had been on loan and was going back at the end of the season, we'd be desperate to get him back and make threads about him in many years time, regardless of how he did after. 

 

no just no

[DCFCfranco]

If Bueno were signed permanently when he first signed, we'd have been slagging him off from the moment his form dipped. If Sammon had been on loan and was going back at the end of the season, we'd be desperate to get him back and make threads about him in many years time, regardless of how he did after. We tend to want what we isn't ours, and in this case it seems particularly silly.

not necessarily Albert. There's a few players Nigel has loaned that I wouldn't have wanted us to sign. And there's players that we have now that I wouldn't be hoping we sign if we previously had them in loan.

[ramblur]

Hundreds of players that have flair and ability that won't go missing in games like Bueno did. Might aswell play with 10 men through the winter than have him.

Let's get Cywka back too whilst we're at it, he was in that team with flair and ability. Another reason why we did f-all that year. Probably the reason he'll end up a L1 player in 2 weeks time.

Hopefully Nige finds a player that fits the bill, flair and ability wise, just not another half season no-show.

I agree.I think there's a lot of nonsense written about Clough resorting to hoofball and Bueno suffering.I well remember that purple patch in 10/11 with the 3 musketeers-particularly because I was looking forward to seeing Bueno in what was to be a televised Burnley away game.However my enthusiasm waned when I heard Commons was out,as purple patches tended to coincide with a fit Commons and end when he was crocked.So it was to prove.We tried to go forward but it just wasn't there and Bueno got subbed half way through.

 

In the next match (Norwich home) Bueno didn't even feature on the subs bench (possibly injured),but Commons was back.The 3 musketeers were back for the Bristol away match,but Bueno was subbed half way through.The fact that all 3 started was an indication we were trying to recapture past form,but it obviously wasn't working.A returning Commons often took time to recapture his form,probably because he was wary of the hamstrings.The next game (Reading home) featured all 3 and Bueno lasted till the 88th minute.I don't remember it as a period of hoofball,more of a threesome unable to recapture past form.If you select all 3,you're obviously hoping to play a certain way.Clough eventually lost patience.

[Alex W]

 I tend to get the feeling if a player is foreign - they're ridiculously over-rated.

 

If people are THIS serious about Bueno, being the best player we've had in the past 20 years... I just don't know what to say, just because he was spanish and came from Real Madrid, doesn't mean **** all.

 

Rodri from Barca, he came over and failed at Wednesday, whilst showing 'nice touches'.

 

Bueno showed glimpses of being a quality player, but overall he wasn't cut out for the division and was massively ineffective! 

 

Please note that I said he's the best player that we've had that 'I've' seen in person, not the best in the last 20 years. And it doesn't matter that he came from Real Madrid, my point was that anyone coming from such a highly rated academy and infrastructure will probably have technical ability that some of our players can only dream of. Nor are we ever linked with such talent under normal circumstances, the lad was recommended by Del Bosque for goodness sake.

 

To say he was massively ineffective is entirely wrong, he played in a formation that suited him and did well. He had some truly amazing games, he had some games where he didn't do so well but you can't be effective every single game. Every player goes through differing form, and it was his first season in English football. Some players take months to get going, he had one season to do it in, and showed enough to know that he could be someone to build around, should we be able to keep him.

 

 

 

If Bueno were signed permanently when he first signed, we'd have been slagging him off from the moment his form dipped. If Sammon had been on loan and was going back at the end of the season, we'd be desperate to get him back and make threads about him in many years time, regardless of how he did after. We tend to want what we isn't ours, and in this case it seems particularly silly.

Just how stupid do you presume me to be? Bueno was a quality player who you could've built around, Sammon certainly isn't. I value ability and effectiveness in a position, that's how I judge players. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

 

I agree.I think there's a lot of nonsense written about Clough resorting to hoofball and Bueno suffering.I well remember that purple patch in 10/11 with the 3 musketeers-particularly because I was looking forward to seeing Bueno in what was to be a televised Burnley away game.However my enthusiasm waned when I heard Commons was out,as purple patches tended to coincide with a fit Commons and end when he was crocked.So it was to prove.We tried to go forward but it just wasn't there and Bueno got subbed half way through.

 

In the next match (Norwich home) Bueno didn't even feature on the subs bench (possibly injured),but Commons was back.The 3 musketeers were back for the Bristol away match,but Bueno was subbed half way through.The fact that all 3 started was an indication we were trying to recapture past form,but it obviously wasn't working.A returning Commons often took time to recapture his form,probably because he was wary of the hamstrings.The next game (Reading home) featured all 3 and Bueno lasted till the 88th minute.I don't remember it as a period of hoofball,more of a threesome unable to recapture past form.If you select all 3,you're obviously hoping to play a certain way.Clough eventually lost patience.

 

The Burnley game you remember I watched live too, Bueno went off within 15 minutes or so, he'd pulled his thigh. We were also finding it difficult to get him into away games as much anyway, no doubt because you get less time on the ball and less dominance, but more so because we tended to sit back far too much. As we did in the Burnley game, Luke Moore scored a deflected long range shot and for 70 minutes we sat back and defended.

 

The Norwich game was a very unlucky one, we should've had a penalty for the foul on Commons and we played well. We were going somewhere. Then we abandoned the formula. You lose patience if something doesn't work, if it did work once, then it can do so again. We should've stuck with it and built something, look at how well we were doing under that system, in both points and results term. It was actually exciting to watch Derby again.

 

It was at that time that I really thought Derby could go on to do something. I haven't felt that since, hence my own disappointment at the time that we'd changed system and gone back to 4-4-2, which essentially meant the end of Bueno and co as it was. Shame.

[uttoxram75]

So was Kinkladze. But I'd be renewing my season ticket if we had a player like him. Certain players put bums on seats.

 

Surprised me when Clough said, when asked, that if he could pick one Prem player it'd be David Silva. I thought James Milner would be more appropiate...

Since he's been here Clough has tried to bring in a skillful playmaker type player, whether on loan or as perm signings. Bannan, Tom Carroll, Bueno, etc, all fairly lightweight yet good on the ball. Tommy Cwyka, James Bailey, Jacobs, again all players comfortable with the ball at feet. Never quite worked out for many reasons but its no coincidence he keeps trying to bring these type of players to the club.

 

Never has he resorted to the Pulis/Stoke approach of only signing 7 foot frankenstein's. He also offered Commons what he was supposed to be asking for only to be outdone by the big wages at Celtic/Rangers.

 

This, more than anything, gives me belief that, with the right budget, he'd have us playing decent football, on the ground, with plenty of pace and attacking intent.

 

I'd love him to have one transfer window to get the player he wants and pay the going rate if that's what's needed.

 

His comment the other day summed him up - "Will Hughes is the sort of player you want to build your team around"

 

So the comment about David Silva was no surprise to me at all.

[ramblur]

Apologies Alex,you were right as I (worryingly) read 14 minutes as 44 in that Burnley game.They scored 2 late goals,so the plan nearly worked,following the loss of Bueno,though I don't remember us as playing particularly well at any stage of the game.I didn't look beyond the Reading game to see if he persisted any longer with the 3.However we were losing games with them playing-how long do you let it continue without changing things.Knowing the way things go on here,if he'd continued and we'd carried on losing,the Clough bashers wouldn't have given him credit for sticking with them (probably the same ones,not you,that now bash him for not continuing).

 

I've just checked and the next game ,a 5-2 thumping by the gumps,proved the final straw and Bueno was replaced by Porter fairly late on.Porter started in his place in the next game vPNE away and scored a brace in a 2-1 win,thus arresting the slide.Bueno replaced Commons fairly late on.

[Ambitious]

Please note that I said he's the best player that we've had that 'I've' seen in person, not the best in the last 20 years. And it doesn't matter that he came from Real Madrid, my point was that anyone coming from such a highly rated academy and infrastructure will probably have technical ability that some of our players can only dream of. Nor are we ever linked with such talent under normal circumstances, the lad was recommended by Del Bosque for goodness sake.

 

Sorry, I thought you was around mid twenties - so just plucked 20 as a round number. 

 

I have had a season ticket for around a decade, and watched about 15 years of Derby County play football.

 

Bueno would struggle to make my top 20-25, even on raw ability, in my opinion he was massively over-rated by everyone. If he had been signed from non-league, he'd of never been heard of ever again - just my opinion. 

 

I feel I watched enough of him, to say that technically he was a sound player but he was easily bossed out of games, as a defender would of been a dream to play against - could bully him into the ground, and once teams realised that - this is when he went into hiding. 

 

I don't know how people can say it was a myth that he went bad, his first 2 months at the club was very good and he did have an effect, but after that he rarely had an effect but still showed his technical ability - the interest dried up in him as well. He just wasn't THAT good - I'd like to see him back here, of course I would because of his ability but he needs help.