The main reason we missed out this season!

[ladyram]

Yes dammit yes.

Coutts Out!!

[ronnieronalde]

No, but do you think it's Coutts fault he had no easy option to pass to as everyone is always behind the ball and crowded close to each other?

 

Do you think Coutts is to blame for none of the other players being able to defend once he'd lost it?

 

Do you think Coutts decides that he should spend more time in his own half with 'backs to the wall' mentality instead of trying to win?

 

No I don't blame Coutts for any of those. I don't even blame him for losing the ball.

 

Blame is a word I try to avoid when it comes to football.

 

It's an individual error, it happens.

 

It had nothing to do with the way we were set up and it had nothing to do with mentality. We were pushing for a winner.

 

We've lost a lot of points down to individual errors though and I don't see how all of those can be Clough's fault.

 

You obviously can.

[maydrakin]

The expectation of the board was a top 10 finish this season, according Andy Appleby, so we are just about on track.

 

http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/Andy-Appleby-says-Derby-County-aiming-hang-rising/story-16928463-detail/story.html#axzz2QFWnpr1O

 

Whilst the fans may have a higher expection of a club of our perceived stature (I certainly do), we have to accept that if we adopt a frugal and conservative approach, we aren't going to get immediate results.

 

All we can hope is that next season, we confound the critics and do a 'Blackpool' and take the division by surprise.  It may happen, but it wouldn't be something to bet your house on...

[WestLondonRam]

Whilst we're there, do you think Coutts is to blame for Clough being totally clueless when it comes to energy conservation and knowing when to make a substitution? Is it Coutts fault that he's worn out?

Is it Coutts fault whe's worn out??? well yes actually it is. if he is worn out at points during a game he should be looking at himself and saying "I need to work on my stamina" if you do something to a low standard do you say "I need to work at that".

Why are we knit picking at a mistake we all make them and pro footballers are no different.

If I lose the ball in open play I will hunt the ball back down as 1 I don't want to look stupid and 2 I don't want to let my mates down.

No matter how tired I am and how tired my legs are I would chase down the ball until I have it.

[ramblur]

Just out of interest, what is Clough's net spend since joining? And net increase/decrease in wage bill? We've been here a million times but without a definite answer, so wondered if someone knew...

I'm afraid it's never possible to give up to date figures on either count.I can tell you that overall wages have been brought down from £22m in 08/09 to £13m in 11/12,the vast bulk representing players' wage reduction.

 

Interestingly,a poster on another forum put up an overall wage table for 11/12,but I've not been able to check for accuracy (though some figures looked familiar from my past research,and the £13m figure for Derby was accurate).This Derby figure includes ENIC,and I've assumed the others did too.Because Pompey and Coventry hadn't reported,you have to realise we're talking about a 22 club table.

 

We showed up in 15th position,with Blackpool (£12.35m) and Palace (£11.7m) just below us.The remainder below us were pretty predictable,and in this order were Watford/Millwall/Donny/Barnsley and Peterborough,(the latter at a modest £5m).As clubs' accounts give staffing numbers,it's become pretty clear to me that our non playing wages come in higher than most-this could easily put us  

below Blackpool and Palace purely on players' wages.I would also guess that Pompey would have come in above us,as an annual wage bill will reflect the whole year,as opposed to just a closing position.

 

I read SR admitting that financial resources normally have a bearing on league position (wages being a better correlation than transfer spend),so unless policy changes,he's effectively asking Nigel to swim heavily against the tide to achieve top 6. 

[mozza]

Who else was there....? B)

 

 

Daft question ..

[Mostyn6]

One question.

 

Do you think it was Clough who told Coutts to give the ball away in the last minute Mostyn?

 

 

No I don't blame Coutts for any of those. I don't even blame him for losing the ball.

 

Blame is a word I try to avoid when it comes to football.

 

It's an individual error, it happens.

 

It had nothing to do with the way we were set up and it had nothing to do with mentality. We were pushing for a winner.

 

We've lost a lot of points down to individual errors though and I don't see how all of those can be Clough's fault.

 

You obviously can.

 

You bought up the Coutts losing the ball incident for whatever reason. The comment I made was my belief that the standard/quality of players would make no difference due to the way they are played.

[ronnieronalde]

You bought up the Coutts losing the ball incident for whatever reason. The comment I made was my belief that the standard/quality of players would make no difference due to the way they are played.

I brought up the Coutts incident but it could just as easily have been the hendirck incident, or the Legzdins incident, or the Jacobs incident.

 

What I meant by that is even this season we're about 5 individual mistakes away from the play offs and yet we're sitting here defending or attacking the quality of the squad. We're either attacking or defending our tactics and our set up play and our mentality.

 

You take away those individual errors, Cardiff, Palace, Ipswich, Bolton (there are another 3 or 4 late goals conceded as well) and we'd be top 6 which is where you and others want to see us. I can't see wow can that produce so much negativity?

[Mostyn6]

I brought up the Coutts incident but it could just as easily have been the hendirck incident, or the Legzdins incident, or the Jacobs incident.

 

What I meant by that is even this season we're about 5 individual mistakes away from the play offs and yet we're sitting here defending or attacking the quality of the squad. We're either attacking or defending our tactics and our set up play and our mentality.

 

You take away those individual errors, Cardiff, Palace, Ipswich, Bolton (there are another 3 or 4 late goals conceded as well) and we'd be top 6 which is where you and others want to see us. I can't see wow can that produce so much negativity?

 

aside of individual errors, there are plenty of points we've surrendered by just not even trying to win!

[EastKentRam]

I brought up the Coutts incident but it could just as easily have been the hendirck incident, or the Legzdins incident, or the Jacobs incident.

 

What I meant by that is even this season we're about 5 individual mistakes away from the play offs and yet we're sitting here defending or attacking the quality of the squad. We're either attacking or defending our tactics and our set up play and our mentality.

 

You take away those individual errors, Cardiff, Palace, Ipswich, Bolton (there are another 3 or 4 late goals conceded as well) and we'd be top 6 which is where you and others want to see us. I can't see wow can that produce so much negativity?

 

Take away individual errors opposition players have made that have lead to us scoring and we're lower in the table.

 

Individual errors are going to happen for all teams. Show me data that we've made more than other sides and you would have a point. Over the course of a season it probably evens itself out and is pretty insignificant. 

[davenportram]

I'm afraid it's never possible to give up to date figures on either count.I can tell you that overall wages have been brought down from £22m in 08/09 to £13m in 11/12,the vast bulk representing players' wage reduction.

Interestingly,a poster on another forum put up an overall wage table for 11/12,but I've not been able to check for accuracy (though some figures looked familiar from my past research,and the £13m figure for Derby was accurate).This Derby figure includes ENIC,and I've assumed the others did too.Because Pompey and Coventry hadn't reported,you have to realise we're talking about a 22 club table.

We showed up in 15th position,with Blackpool (£12.35m) and Palace (£11.7m) just below us.The remainder below us were pretty predictable,and in this order were Watford/Millwall/Donny/Barnsley and Peterborough,(the latter at a modest £5m).As clubs' accounts give staffing numbers,it's become pretty clear to me that our non playing wages come in higher than most-this could easily put us

below Blackpool and Palace purely on players' wages.I would also guess that Pompey would have come in above us,as an annual wage bill will reflect the whole year,as opposed to just a closing position.

I read SR admitting that financial resources normally have a bearing on league position (wages being a better correlation than transfer spend),so unless policy changes,he's effectively asking Nigel to swim heavily against the tide to achieve top 6.

some might say Clough is treading water at the moment then

[ronnieronalde]

aside of individual errors, there are plenty of points we've surrendered by just not even trying to win!

 

I agree we've dropped careless points by sitting back. Just I get the feeling that's more down to the players and human nature.

 

I might be wrong Mostyn, it might be Nigel telling them to drop back to the edge of our 18 yard area and defend but I haven't seen us really pinned back too many times this year.

 

I agree Sheffield Wednesday twice and the Ssausagehorpe games were all incredible collapses by us. Birmingham away as well was just terrible but I don't think it's cos we were sitting back inviting them on.

[ramblur]

some might say Clough is treading water at the moment then

Not bad,that one.

[ronnieronalde]

Take away individual errors opposition players have made that have lead to us scoring and we're lower in the table.

 

Individual errors are going to happen for all teams. Show me data that we've made more than other sides and you would have a point. Over the course of a season it probably evens itself out and is pretty insignificant. 

That's a fair point EastKent. I agree fully.

 

I don't know about the other teams and I'm sure, as you say they'll have their fair share of what if's as well.

 

All I know is what I see with my own eyes. We were 8 minutes away from beating Cardiff in Wales before Adam misjudged the flight of a cross  and gareth decided to hold his hand.

 

We're an Adam being a bit sharper, away from gettting a point against Palace at home, and we missed a penalty.

 

We're a Coutts hoof away from a point against Ipswich and we missed a penalty and hit the post.

 

That's 9 points we should have had. We got 1.

 

No sob stories from me, just frustration that we haven't been able to turn dominance into points.

[RodleyRam]

That's a fair point EastKent. I agree fully.

 

I don't know about the other teams and I'm sure, as you say they'll have their fair share of what if's as well.

 

All I know is what I see with my own eyes. We were 8 minutes away from beating Cardiff in Wales before Adam misjudged the flight of a cross  and gareth decided to hold his hand.

 

We're an Adam being a bit sharper, away from gettting a point against Palace at home, and we missed a penalty.

 

We're a Coutts hoof away from a point against Ipswich and we missed a penalty and hit the post.

 

That's 9 points we should have had. We got 1.

 

No sob stories from me, just frustration that we haven't been able to turn dominance into points.

 

Whilst I do completely agree with you (we've been a bit unfortunate this year and it hasn't been down to tactics, negativity etc.) We don't seem to have that winning/clinical/gritty mentality to win when we shouldn't, score when we only have a few chances and grind games out when our passing game is affected by good opposition tactics.

 

I do think we deserve more points on the board than we've got this season based on our overall play and dominance of games, at the end of the day we are where we are and there's a reason for it. For me it comes down to a bit of lacking experience and quality at important times.

 

I'm very positive about next season, I've seen big improvements this season and if we can manage games better than we have done this season, we'd be looking at play offs without a doubt in my opinion.

 

Whether we've got the quality to sustain a serious automatic promotion challenge is doubtful but we're not to far away.

 

Experience and consistency is the key - all the signs suggest that Nigel and Sam know this, so hopefully the summer will result in the right kind of buys to balance out the talent of our young players...

[harveyharveyharveydent]

Don't we say the same thing every season? And then 12 months later we get a little annoyed results aren't going our way because of our annual mid season meltdown then we pick it up again and everyone just says there always next season, its a terrible pity.

Moaning aside we missed out this season because we had a few injuries, our dreadful away form, our annual mid season meltdown, lack or morale, less points than last season (looking like it).

Need to get more focused next season ad hopefully Mr Rush isn't all talk.

[Alph]

Don't we say the same thing every season? And then 12 months later we get a little annoyed results aren't going our way because of our annual mid season meltdown then we pick it up again and everyone just says there always next season, its a terrible pity.

Moaning aside we missed out this season because we had a few injuries, our dreadful away form, our annual mid season meltdown, lack or morale, less points than last season (looking like it).

Need to get more focused next season ad hopefully Mr Rush isn't all talk.

Can we just call you harvey?

[uttoxram75]

You bought up the Coutts losing the ball incident for whatever reason. The comment I made was my belief that the standard/quality of players would make no difference due to the way they are played.

 

 

Ah, your belief, in an earlier post you said anyone who doesn't see what you see is blinded by the romance of the Clough name. Reality, i think you said!

 

Glad you've corrected it to "belief" now.

 

Others may believe that the manager is managing well......just saying like.......belief, opinions etc.

[AndyB]

This is an interesting thread with lots of great points. For simplicity I would just say this. If Clough had been allowed to keep Shackell and buy Keogh we would probably be in the top 6 now. That's a bit more transfer money and a bit more wages.

Ironically, if the owners / board had agreed to this the additional revenues in tickets and other sales would probably have covered the extra.

This simple example explains in a nutshell why I think the owners / board's strategy is wrong.

[AndyB]

I agree it is simple but there are a lot of valid points in this thread and I just wanted to simplify it. Imagine the overall effect of retaining Shackell, not just his individual contribution in each match. The different reaction last summer. The lack of need to have a defensive mentality, to drop back, to play 451. The stable back 4. The improved confidence in the goalkeeper. The improved confidence in the midfield to push forward. I could go on. We were great last season when we had 2 good centre backs.