We're not a great team, but we're not a poor team either

[Richardsonram4life]

Completely of the subject is anybody going Cardiff away Tuesday? Road riders sold out and need transport!? Help!!!

[Stive Pesley]

My stats are a little off as I included Varney and shouldn't have as although he didn't sign perminantly until Nigel was here he was already at the club so it's 11 from 29. Here's the list:

Porter - Gone

Croft - Gone

Moxey - Gone

Buxton - Here

Pringle - Gone

Barker - Here

Deeney - Here

Abalimba - Gone

Hendrie - Gone

Anderson - Gone

Brayford - Here

Bailey - Gone

Martin - Gone

Roberts - Here

Cywka - Gone

Doyle - Here

Davies - Here

Boulding - Gone

Fielding - Here

Ward - Gone

Bryson - Here

Shackell - Gone

Maguire - Gone

Robinson - Gone

Tyson - Gone

Legzdins - Here

Riggott - Gone

Naylor - Here

I've marked Bailey, Tyson and Robinson as 'Gone' as let's be honest they've not gone on loan for 1st team experience.

Naylor is at Grimsby till the end of the season and doesn't seem to feature in our plans - given the fact he played a few games and now we have a defensive crisis we've let him go on loan. I'd give him a Gone!

Plus Ward is still here -very much not gone

[Asanovic]

But it does just seem limited to attacking players. At the back we seem to make good signings

Fielding, Legzdins, Barker, Keogh, Shackell (I know he's gone but he was good), Brayford, Roberts, Buxton.

But venture further up the pitch and we can't get it right. Whether that's a failure in our scouting or so called flair players not working under our current management I don't know but we certainly struggle to have players who can score and those who can create.

Attacking players are where the money is though - because up the pitch is where the moneys made, by sticking the ball in the net.

Finding a solid defender that can be reliable (Buxton) isn't too difficult to find. But a striker can't be solid - they need to be banging in goals. Finding someone to do that on a regular basis is difficult, and expensive, and that's where we get priced out of the market.

I have high hopes for Bennett next year. Looked the real deal last Saturday.

[WestLondonRam]

I thought Bennett looked like a 25 year old that is playing week in/ week out.

He was full of confidence and I thought he looked like he could be a winger as well.

He had pace, awesome first touch, tracked back, not scared to have a go at his man and he wasn't even worried about shooting. He looked very promising. He needs a run now as there is not much to play for this season lets have a look at him and build some confidence up ready for next year.

[Stive Pesley]

If you include this season's signings then they are pretty much equal numbers. i.e as many of Clough's signings are still here as have been moved on. Still quite an interesting stat

[WilkoRam]

Sorry just a typo re Ward. Obviously he is still here. But good point re Naylor.

Also take the point about this seasons signings but in that respect they're unlikely to go within a season. I would be interested to see how many of this seasons signings are loaned/sold/forgotten by this time next year.

[WilkoRam]

Attacking players are where the money is though - because up the pitch is where the moneys made, by sticking the ball in the net.

Finding a solid defender that can be reliable (Buxton) isn't too difficult to find. But a striker can't be solid - they need to be banging in goals. Finding someone to do that on a regular basis is difficult, and expensive, and that's where we get priced out of the market.

I have high hopes for Bennett next year. Looked the real deal last Saturday.

Although I agree that you generally pay more for attacking players, we have spent in that area and spent more on some players than others in the past who have succeeded or indeed others who have been signed by other clubs and succeeded.

Another point of note is (and this was highlighted when we played Watford and the slightly xenophobic chant of "Eng-er-land, Eng-er-land" started) we don't have players who aren't from the UK and Ireland. Although I'm not suggesting we loan in half an Italian club I do wonder if there is talent to be had away from these shores. Because if you go by general football logic (such as you pay more for attacking players) then you get more for your money when you go abroad, don't you?

Agree about Bennett though, he looked very good when he came on. He played the role well, he moved about, looked for the ball and if he passed, he looked for the return pass. It's something that our other forwards didn't do. His link up with Brayford on the right was encouraging as well. Fingers crossed with this youth product (and Hughes obviously).

[WestLondonRam]

I think the Eng-er-land chants was a bit of both really.. I think it was half meant because of the Rugby and heard the talking from the back of the stands about starting up the rugby songs.

[Animal is a Ram]

Although I agree that you generally pay more for attacking players, we have spent in that area and spent more on some players than others in the past who have succeeded or indeed others who have been signed by other clubs and succeeded.

Another point of note is (and this was highlighted when we played Watford and the slightly xenophobic chant of "Eng-er-land, Eng-er-land" started) we don't have players who aren't from the UK and Ireland. Although I'm not suggesting we loan in half an Italian club I do wonder if there is talent to be had away from these shores. Because if you go by general football logic (such as you pay more for attacking players) then you get more for your money when you go abroad, don't you?

Agree about Bennett though, he looked very good when he came on. He played the role well, he moved about, looked for the ball and if he passed, he looked for the return pass. It's something that our other forwards didn't do. His link up with Brayford on the right was encouraging as well. Fingers crossed with this youth product (and Hughes obviously).

Gjokaj is Swiss/Albanian, and Legzdins is Latvian. Don't forget a problem in bringing in foreign players is the language and culture differences - being a non fluent-english speaker coming into a dressing room where english is the totally dominant language can be very intimidating and leads to communication issues. Given our clear bias towards youth players, how many Spanish/Italian/French etc. youngsters are going to be fluent in the language?

[WilkoRam]

Gjokaj is Swiss/Albanian, and Legzdins is Latvian. Don't forget a problem in bringing in foreign players is the language and culture differences - being a non fluent-english speaker coming into a dressing room where english is the totally dominant language can be very intimidating and leads to communication issues. Given our clear bias towards youth players, how many Spanish/Italian/French etc. youngsters are going to be fluent in the language?

English is a predominant language in Europe and this apparent barrier preventing players from abroad coming to us, does seem to have affected the other clubs signing players from elsewhere. It didn't stop Jim Smith or George Burley from signing players from abroad. I'm not going to go into the comparison with other managers as its been done to death just that a language barrier is not a reason to not purchase a player.

Also the top scorers in the championship are:

Glenn Murray - Free

Charlie Austin - undisclosed - believed around £1.2m

Jordan Rhodes - up to £8m (silly money)

Matej Vydra - Loanee

Chris Woods - undisclosed - believed around £1.1m

So only 1 of the top scorers cost more than Sammon.

You can go further if you want as well

Tom Ince - compensation around £60k

Luciano Becchio - £300k

Troy Deeney - up to £500k

David Nugent - free

Marlon King - free

So that's the top 10 league scorers and there's only 1 we couldn't afford. If you're now going to cite wages as an issue just think about how much money we are wasting on signing on fees for players who last less than 2 seasons at the club?

It now sounds like I'm having a pop but I'm not. As previously said, I'm impressed with us at the back and we do pass it around at the back and I feel sorry for the back four as they keep the ball and look for options but there is little movement ahead of them for them to move the ball forward. I just wish we could solve the problem for the final 3rd.

[Animal is a Ram]

English is a predominant language in Europe and this apparent barrier preventing players from abroad coming to us, does seem to have affected the other clubs signing players from elsewhere. It didn't stop Jim Smith or George Burley from signing players from abroad. I'm not going to go into the comparison with other managers as its been done to death just that a language barrier is not a reason to not purchase a player.

Also the top scorers in the championship are:

Glenn Murray - Free

Charlie Austin - undisclosed - believed around £1.2m

Jordan Rhodes - up to £8m (silly money)

Matej Vydra - Loanee

Chris Woods - undisclosed - believed around £1.1m

So only 1 of the top scorers cost more than Sammon.

You can go further if you want as well

Tom Ince - compensation around £60k

Luciano Becchio - £300k

Troy Deeney - up to £500k

David Nugent - free

Marlon King - free

So that's the top 10 league scorers and there's only 1 we couldn't afford. If you're now going to cite wages as an issue just think about how much money we are wasting on signing on fees for players who last less than 2 seasons at the club?

It now sounds like I'm having a pop but I'm not. As previously said, I'm impressed with us at the back and we do pass it around at the back and I feel sorry for the back four as they keep the ball and look for options but there is little movement ahead of them for them to move the ball forward. I just wish we could solve the problem for the final 3rd.

But you look at those teams and there was at least 2 or 3 (Eranio, Baiano - Italians) of those languages. It's not just that but culture too. These are humans after all, how would you feel being thrown into an environment where you're the only English person? It's a scary thing, I've done it a time or two in France being the only Englishman and with only a basic grasp of French.. Also the attitude of these players - they also might clash with the current group and Nigel too.

Also, look at that top scorers list - only Vydra from outside the Commonwealth, if you take your suggestions Becchio too.

Most of those wouldn't fit Derby's current mindset, would you really want someone like King at the club? Not exactly the best off the field role models for these youngsters.

I'm not having a pop either - but currently studying Sports Psych - it gives you the extra dimension of what players we need at the club. Stats are maybe the most prominent things that we see from strikers, goals per game, assists etc., but they rarely paint the whole picture, it can be the backroom goings on that can make or break players. You only have to look at the rumours surrounding the departures of Shackell and Savies, or why Theo has gone out on loan to see evidence.

[Stive Pesley]

Although the fee Leics paid WBA for Wood was rumoured at 1.1m that was coming from the Leicester contingent who wanted to make out like they had a bargain. WBS fans hotly dispute the figure bandied about. Independent observers have said it's unlikely to have been less than 2m

[BOB BIGGS]

l

It now sounds like I'm having a pop but I'm not. As previously said, I'm impressed with us at the back and we do pass it around at the back and I feel sorry for the back four as they keep the ball and look for options but there is little movement ahead of them for them to move the ball forward. I just wish we could solve the problem for the final 3rd.

So do i. However, surely, it's much more difficult to sign the right players than it sounds. If you look at others you haven't mentioned, the likes of Sordell [£3m], Ngog [£4m], Mackail-Smith[ £3m], show that it's tough at this level. All reasonable players [ I'd have the lot of them if they are going spare] but worth what the Clubs paid? Jay Rodriguez for £7m to Southampton in the Summer, even Billy Sharp at £2m. Have they done enough. Kevin Doyle [£6m?] at Wolves. Simon Cox [£2m] at Forest. Danny Graham [£3.5m to Swansea]. Were they worth it?

I don't know. Even Ferguson and Wenger have paid big money for forwards that haven't come off. I don't think we can expect to get much for a million pounds. The occasional few will come through. For every one you mention, there's plenty who haven't.

[WilkoRam]

But you look at those teams and there was at least 2 or 3 (Eranio, Baiano - Italians) of those languages. It's not just that but culture too. These are humans after all, how would you feel being thrown into an environment where you're the only English person? It's a scary thing, I've done it a time or two in France being the only Englishman and with only a basic grasp of French.. Also the attitude of these players - they also might clash with the current group and Nigel too.

Also, look at that top scorers list - only Vydra from outside the Commonwealth, if you take your suggestions Becchio too.

Most of those wouldn't fit Derby's current mindset, would you really want someone like King at the club? Not exactly the best off the field role models for these youngsters.

I'm not having a pop either - but currently studying Sports Psych - it gives you the extra dimension of what players we need at the club. Stats are maybe the most prominent things that we see from strikers, goals per game, assists etc., but they rarely paint the whole picture, it can be the backroom goings on that can make or break players. You only have to look at the rumours surrounding the departures of Shackell and Savies, or why Theo has gone out on loan to see evidence.

I do take your point and you look a the amount of teams who end up signing two players of the same nationality in order to help integration but I still find it odd that we seem to be making no attempt to explore this area. Maybe we are and just haven't found anyone good enough but that doesn't seem feasible to me.

[WilkoRam]

So do i. However, surely, it's much more difficult to sign the right players than it sounds. If you look at others you haven't mentioned, the likes of Sordell [£3m], Ngog [£4m], Mackail-Smith[ £3m], show that it's tough at this level. All reasonable players [ I'd have the lot of them if they are going spare] but worth what the Clubs paid? Jay Rodriguez for £7m to Southampton in the Summer, even Billy Sharp at £2m. Have they done enough. Kevin Doyle [£6m?] at Wolves. Simon Cox [£2m] at Forest. Danny Graham [£3.5m to Swansea]. Were they worth it?

I don't know. Even Ferguson and Wenger have paid big money for forwards that haven't come off. I don't think we can expect to get much for a million pounds. The occasional few will come through. For every one you mention, there's plenty who haven't.

Surely that also illustrates the point, that money doesn't solve the problem. Having money will certainly help as it puts less of a limit on who you can buy but at the end of the day it's finding the right player. I highlight the top scorers due to the mentality that we simply cannot afford a top goal scorer. As shown by other teams, we can afford one, but we don't seem able to identify the right players. More money would give us a bigger pool of players to choose from but, as your post shows, that doesn't mean that more expensive players work.

[curb]

I do take your point and you look a the amount of teams who end up signing two players of the same nationality in order to help integration but I still find it odd that we seem to be making no attempt to explore this area. Maybe we are and just haven't found anyone good enough but that doesn't seem feasible to me.

Clough's the barrier. He said he doesnt scout players from abroad. I think it was the fans forum last summer.

[WilkoRam]

Sorry just to add.

Although the top 10 scorers illustrates that you don't have to spend millions to get a top scorer it doesn't take into account the players behind those strikers who are creating the chances.

[Albert]

Leicester:chris wood 1.1mil 9goals 9app

Derby :connor sammon 1.2 mil 7goals more app?

Need to get a better system in buying cus we aint that good for

Strikers

I love posts like this, absolutely love them.

Reports about Wood's fee range from £1.1 mil all the way upto £2 mil (normally as £1.5 mil rising to £2 mil), with him being on rather high wages.

We have one media figure for Sammon of £1.2 mil, the only reference I can find for this seems to come from the Mirror, but was picked up by several sites.

So, what do we do?

Well, pick the lowest fee we can possibly find for Wood, find the highest for Sammon, instant argument, no effort. Hoorah!

I should also mention that Leicester this season paid in excess of £1 mil for a non-league striker who so far has what... 4 goals?

But no, Wood will be used as an example for years to come by the sounds of it, based on a cherry picked media value. Fantastic.

[Alex W]

I love posts like this, absolutely love them.

Reports about Wood's fee range from £1.1 mil all the way upto £2 mil (normally as £1.5 mil rising to £2 mil), with him being on rather high wages.

We have one media figure for Sammon of £1.2 mil, the only reference I can find for this seems to come from the Mirror, but was picked up by several sites.

So, what do we do?

Well, pick the lowest fee we can possibly find for Wood, find the highest for Sammon, instant argument, no effort. Hoorah!

The DET quoted the £1.2m figure, though it has been suggested it was lower than that, i'd presume that a good portion of that deal is based on promotion or appearances etc. The DET are not 100% accurate, but usually they're atleast pretty close to the correct figures.

The Chris Wood deal has been mostly touted as around £1.1m to £1.5m, though I have no doubts there are also some performance related fees in there aswell. The more regular figure that i've seen has been £1.1m, but that's not to say the other figure is not also true considering the structure of a deal. His wages also will of course be pretty substantial.

[Brammie Steve]

If a team lets us play, we can play very well but as soon as the oppo get at us and show some resistance then we struggle to break them down and for me it's due to a lack of movement off the ball, not looking for a return pass and not having enough quality in the final 3rd. All of which were evident against Watford until the final 15 mins.

Perhaps we should speak to some of these teams and ask if they would let us play please.

If not we're going home and we're taking our ball with us.

Anyone'd think they didn't want us to beat them.! 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/rolleyes' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':rolleyes:' />

Great to have you back Wilko. 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />