We're not a great team, but we're not a poor team either

[GeneralRam]

[size=3]Porter - Gone[/size]

[size=3]Croft - Gone[/size]

[size=3]Moxey - Gone[/size]

[size=3]Buxton - Here[/size]

[size=3]Pringle - Gone[/size]

[size=3]Barker - Here[/size]

[size=3]Deeney - Here[/size]

[size=3]Abalimba - Gone[/size]

[size=3]Hendrie - Gone[/size]

[size=3]Anderson - Gone[/size]

[size=3]Brayford - Here[/size]

[size=3]Bailey - Gone[/size]

[size=3]Martin - Gone[/size]

[size=3]Roberts - Here[/size]

[size=3]Cywka - Gone[/size]

[size=3]Doyle - Here[/size]

[size=3]Davies - Here[/size]

[size=3]Boulding - Gone[/size]

[size=3]Fielding - Here[/size]

[size=3]Ward - Gone[/size]

[size=3]Bryson - Here[/size]

[size=3]Shackell - Gone[/size]

[size=3]Maguire - Gone[/size]

[size=3]Robinson - Gone[/size]

[size=3]Tyson - Gone[/size]

[size=3]Legzdins - Here[/size]

[size=3]Riggott - Gone[/size]

[size=3]Naylor - Here[/size]

[size=3]I have marked the players in bold which were punts or making the numbers up. Wouldn't class those as players bought in to improve us. Either a cork in a hole temporary solution or a cheap punt and hope they come good.[/size]

Shackell was sold because Clough wanted Keogh who is on the same skill level and is younger. Can't possibly moan at him for that.

The only failures I would consider out that list is Tyson, Maguire, Martin, Croft. You could even argue Porter, but nobody could see his hip being such an issue.

I am pleased with Clough in the transfer market. Certainly can pick a lower league player and isn't scared to drop them when he feels they ain't playing up to his standards - much rather that than someone who keeps playing them hoping they come good!

[eddie]

Clough's the barrier. He said he doesnt scout players from abroad. I think it was the fans forum last summer.

We have seven Irish players at the club at the various levels.

Is that not abroad? Try getting there without a passport.

[WilkoRam]

[size=3]I have marked the players in bold which were punts or making the numbers up. Wouldn't class those as players bought in to improve us. Either a cork in a hole temporary solution or a cheap punt and hope they come good.[/size]

Shackell was sold because Clough wanted Keogh who is on the same skill level and is younger. Can't possibly moan at him for that.

The only failures I would consider out that list is Tyson, Maguire, Martin, Croft. You could even argue Porter, but nobody could see his hip being such an issue.

I am pleased with Clough in the transfer market. Certainly can pick a lower league player and isn't scared to drop them when he feels they ain't playing up to his standards - much rather that than someone who keeps playing them hoping they come good!

Hey I've just put it out there. If you want to justify it then fine but I still consider it a high turnover of players and note ably in the attacking areas.

[WilkoRam]

I love posts like this, absolutely love them.

Reports about Wood's fee range from £1.1 mil all the way upto £2 mil (normally as £1.5 mil rising to £2 mil), with him being on rather high wages.

We have one media figure for Sammon of £1.2 mil, the only reference I can find for this seems to come from the Mirror, but was picked up by several sites.

So, what do we do?

Well, pick the lowest fee we can possibly find for Wood, find the highest for Sammon, instant argument, no effort. Hoorah!

I should also mention that Leicester this season paid in excess of £1 mil for a non-league striker who so far has what... 4 goals?

But no, Wood will be used as an example for years to come by the sounds of it, based on a cherry picked media value. Fantastic.

What about the other strikers who currently top the scoring charts? Why not mention any of them and how much they cost? If you dispute the Woods value then what about the others?

Sorry but I just don't like this whole "poor Nigel, how could anyone find good attacking players on our budget" rhetoric. It doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

[ramblur]

What about the other strikers who currently top the scoring charts? Why not mention any of them and how much they cost? If you dispute the Woods value then what about the others?

Sorry but I just don't like this whole "poor Nigel, how could anyone find good attacking players on our budget" rhetoric. It doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

I'd dispute any undisclosed fees that are converted to 'believed to be'. What was Ben Davies' fee 'believed to be'? I thought the Becchio deal involved a player going the other way + a fee?

Of course the thing you don't mention is wages-could we afford the wages of those you mentioned? We certainly couldn't afford BS's wages,according to Glick.

[Alph]

Didn't we try to sign Chris Wood a while ago?

It's not all about fees. It's about wages. It's one dispute I never bother with... "£400,000? Joe Bloggs went to Roy's Rovers for £200,000 and look at him now...".

We know wages are a stumbling block at Derby. More so than fees. You can pick good players up for cheap fees if a club wants him off their wage bill. Doesn't make him a bargain though. Personally I doubt Sammon's value increased while sat on Wigan's bench.

Look at the fees that some Portsmouth players were knocking about for. I know the club were needing cash ASAP but some of those players were dirt cheap. Wages though? Lawrence on £20,000? Bellamy to Cardiff? Ibrahimovic to PSG?

Everybody assumes that Ibra will be costing PSG a fortune (I bet he is!) and that's why £12m isn't a bargain. But when it comes to obscure players like Sammon vs Wood signing for smaller clubs then surely the logic is still relevant?

Hooper, Sharp, Le Fondre.... Some names have passed us by. Nobody knows for sure what goes on between clubs and agents. That's why it's probably not worth taking it all too seriously. It makes for a decent debate, but when no figures are confirmed its not worth getting too vocal.

[Albert]

What about the other strikers who currently top the scoring charts? Why not mention any of them and how much they cost? If you dispute the Woods value then what about the others?

Sorry but I just don't like this whole "poor Nigel, how could anyone find good attacking players on our budget" rhetoric. It doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

...I don't think you entirely get what you are implying. Okay, let's sort this out properly then.

You are saying that as all but one of the top ten strikers cost less than £2 mil that teams can get good strikers on the cheap. Now, if we ignore wage concerns here (free transfers aren't cheap a lot of the time... anyone a certain former Norwich player?) this still doesn't imply anything on it's own. Consider this:

There is a lottery draw, where a total of 10 people receive some amount of money. All but one of the winners bought only one ticket each, whilst the last one bought 45. Does this imply that buying a single ticket makes you likely to win the lottery? Of course not! There could have been literally hundreds of thousands of people who bought single tickets, but only 9 won.

How many strikers were signed in the summer, how many on big fees? Didn't Forest sign Cox for £2 mil or something? Last time I heard he was still on less goals than Sammon too... and how many goals has Leicester's million pound non-league man scored? I honestly couldn't be bothered going through every single transfer in the damn league to find all the strikers signed in the last few years and show why the logic is faulty, but what's more fun is looking at the list it becomes clear that anyone who thinks any of the players were in any way cheap is kidding themselves, let's go down the list though:

1. Glenn Murray - Arrived on a free transfer at the start of last season, but almost certainly on much bigger wages than most think, and the other fees including agents fees would have been a pretty penny at the time, Sammon has already hit as many as he hit last year as well...

2. Charlie Austin - Arrived for of the order of £1.2 mil in January 2011, didn't score until the next season. His manager even had to defend his contribution during his first full season. Not cheap, had a reputation from League One, wouldn't be on small wages either

3. Jordan Rhodes - The silliest of silly money

4. Matej Vydra - Not really fair to include him on the list really with that whole situation, unless you take into account that he cost Udinese around £3+ mil if I got my conversion correct on the currency

5. Chris Wood - Would be on fairly decent wages, and that transfer fee could have been anything from that £1.1 mil mark to £2 mil depending on which report you listen to, not a cheap signing by any means

Long story short, none of them were even cheap, and the only one who definitely cost less than Sammon was Murray, who came on free transfer and probably was a cheap one. Even he only scored 6 last season, a total Sammon is already on.

[WilkoRam]

I can't mention wages as non of us know what the wages are. Of course without this information the "oh it's the wages" argument will surface. I can't say it's not the wages that hold us back because I simply cannot state what those players are on and what our players are on. The same applies the other way, you can't possibly be able to say its due to the wages that we don't have a proper attacking threat in the final 3rd. How can you?

We also can't say how much money we may have spent on signing on fees for the players that have been signed and subsequently been sold.

[Albert]

I can't mention wages as non of us know what the wages are. Of course without this information the "oh it's the wages" argument will surface. I can't say it's not the wages that hold us back because I simply cannot state what those players are on and what our players are on. The same applies the other way, you can't possibly be able to say its due to the wages that we don't have a proper attacking threat in the final 3rd. How can you?

We also can't say how much money we may have spent on signing on fees for the players that have been signed and subsequently been sold.

Ah... the dragon in your garage argument. Nice work!

If you can't demonstrate that they are on cheap wages which were easily affordable, along with a definitive fee, you can't say they were cheap. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, I am not claiming that the top scorers were cheap, in fact I offered a reason why it's completely irrelevant anyhow as the logic doesn't even hold. Even going through their values though, the only one that didn't even have a fee at least of the order of Sammon's only scored 6 last year, the same number Sammon is already on.

So yeah, if you can't give us proof to your argument, don't hide behind a lack of proof, because that doesn't make any sense. If you think what you are saying is somehow true, unless you have some hard backing to it you may as well say you divined it from water, as it holds about as much weight.

[WilkoRam]

There is a lottery draw, where a total of 10 people receive some amount of money. All but one of the winners bought only one ticket each, whilst the last one bought 45. Does this imply that buying a single ticket makes you likely to win the lottery? Of course not! There could have been literally hundreds of thousands of people who bought single tickets, but only 9 won.

Can't say I agree with your analogy there. It would imply that signing players is just pure luck. A simple gamble by which you punt for any old striker and hope it pays off. Unless I'm missing the point of your lottery comparison and if I am then I apologise.

Also, the point of the list was due to the idea that strikers who can ping in 20 goals a season cost £2m or more. When that list is shown then the goalposts change a little and now it's about wages, fees, etc, things we can't properly discuss as we have no idea what any of those top scores are earning or what any of our players are earning, who was paid what fee, etc.

For all I know we couldn't afford any of their wages or some of our players are on the same as them. I have no idea, and I'm not pretending to.

But the fact remains that of all the top 10 goal scorers this season only 1, maybe 2 if you add Woods, had a transfer fee in excess of £2m. Anything else is conjecture.

To make it clear I found those figures out due to someone stating that it costs more than £2m for a top striker.

[WilkoRam]

To make it further clear to you Albert. I didn't make the claim, I have merely made the list of transfer fees for someone else who claimed they cost more in transfer fees than we could afford. A simple premise that has now manifested into something else.

I'm not sure how this has irritated so. I have never said "Nigel is rubbish, look at all the cheap strikers out there that we could have got" I have wondered why we seem able to bring in very good players at the back, players that stay at the club, whereas more attack minded players don't seem to work out.

It could very well be that we have tried to sign some fantastic players but could not afford wages etc. It could be that we're not as good at identifying attack minded players as we are defensive players. It might be that some of our players would have worked at other clubs or indeed that some of the players we have signed would have done worse at other clubs and we got the best from them but their best isn't enough. I don't know, it's an observation and one I do not have an answer to and unless someone on here has some massive insight in the club then I would say that none of us know why it's like that.

[Albert]

Can't say I agree with your analogy there. It would imply that signing players is just pure luck. A simple gamble by which you punt for any old striker and hope it pays off. Unless I'm missing the point of your lottery comparison and if I am then I apologise.

Also, the point of the list was due to the idea that strikers who can ping in 20 goals a season cost £2m or more. When that list is shown then the goalposts change a little and now it's about wages, fees, etc, things we can't properly discuss as we have no idea what any of those top scores are earning or what any of our players are earning, who was paid what fee, etc.

For all I know we couldn't afford any of their wages or some of our players are on the same as them. I have no idea, and I'm not pretending to.

But the fact remains that of all the top 10 goal scorers this season only 1, maybe 2 if you add Woods, had a transfer fee in excess of £2m. Anything else is conjecture.

To make it clear I found those figures out due to someone stating that it costs more than £2m for a top striker.

The point of the analogy was about cherry picking a dataset, not the nature of the set, although a lot of luck does go into signings due to many factors, injuries, ability of players to adapt and settle in new surroundings etc. The point however was that it's not representative of the entire set.

Well... actually:

1. Glenn Murray - Not signed this season

2. Charlie Austin - Not signed this season

3. Jordan Rhodes - Much higher than £2 mil

4. Matej Vydra - Worth more than £2 mil and is a special case

5. Chris Wood - The deal could well include a fee up to £2 mil

So if the whole £2 mil thing is your criteria it doesn't work anyhow, unless we're talking about building long term. Ward might be our 20 goal a season man, he cost far less than £2 mil, start of last season of course.

Carefully note that neither Murray nor Austin scored 20 goals in their first season after their transfer. We are judging Sammon for 6 goals in his first season which is still ongoing (again, Murray got 6 in his first). Sammon offers far more to the team than goals as well... Great fun!

Now, as for:

But the fact remains that of all the top 10 goal scorers this season only 1, maybe 2 if you add Woods, had a transfer fee in excess of £2m. Anything else is conjecture.

Vydra cost more than £2 mil from what I can tell, and to discount that due to his loan would be ridiculous.

King has gone for a fee of over £2 mil before, as did Nugent... By this point we're no where near the 20 goal mark though.

Long story short, your point relies on misrepresenting the figures and using wishy washing definitions. I might come back to this later, but I suggest you specifically define some criteria which are both self consistent and make sense with idea of a "20 goal a season" striker. I'd suggest doing a survey of all strikers signed in the Championship over the last 5 seasons and checking fee against goals in their first, second and third season (if they have had that many) since signing in order to determine the affect of such.

[RamNut]

To make it further clear to you Albert......

....sometimes its better to walk away mate whilst you've still got your sanity ......you are locking horns with a terminator.

[WilkoRam]

Top championship goal scorers since 2004-05 season.

2004–05 Nathan Ellington 24 goals - £1.2m

2005–06 Marlon King 21 goals - £500k

2006–07 Jamie Cureton 23 goals - free transfer

2007–08 Sylvan Ebanks-Blake 23 goals - 2 clubs - £300k to Plymouth then during this season £1.5m to Wolves

2008–09 Sylvan Ebanks-Blake 25 goals - £1.5m

2009–10 Nicky Maynard 20 goals - £2.25m; Peter Whittingham 20 goals - £350k

2010–11 Danny Graham 24 goals - £350k

2011–12 Rickie Lambert 27 goals - in excess of £1m

2012–13 Glenn Murray 27 goals - free

I'm not going to go through what they scored in their first season or what they've cost in the past because It's a simple debate, can a 20 goal striker cost less than £2m in transfer fee. Answer is yes. If they cost £5m before but you got them for £1m then you still got a 20 goal striker for £1m. If they scored 6 the first season but then 24 the next then the answer is still yes.

Now I'll end with this and take RamsNut's advice and keep my sanity. If you want to argue about anything else that's fine but I never ventured into anything else. It was that simple - striker scores more than 20 goals and costs less than £2m transfer.

[curb]

Wow, what's that dog called that locks it's jaws and won't let go?

[WilkoRam]

Wow, what's that dog called that locks it's jaws and won't let go?

There isn't one

[curb]

There isn't one

Yeah, that's it.

[VulcanRam]

There isn't one

Ha ha wilko, you've been Albertoed.

Welcome back 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

[Anag Ram]

Wow, what's that dog called that locks it's jaws and won't let go?

Ann Widdecombe

[WilkoRam]

Ha ha wilko, you've been Albertoed.

Welcome back 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

That doesn't sound pleasant, I fear I've ventured into something I shouldn't have here.