Views on NC's signings as DCFC manager

[sage]

How many managers can you name with a signing success rate of over 75%.

Then try and think of one working in the lower-mid budget range.

[Albert]

Chris Porter, Croft, Hendrie, Russell Anderson, David Martin, Maguire, Tyson, Cywka, Naylor, just ones I can think off top of my head, oh and Pringle.

No dig at clough, and you may think that these players were good, or didnt affect the cash flow in any way of form and all played for free, but IMO they are poor / average signings, if your veiw he has a perfect record....fair enough :-)

Chris Porter - Did very well at first before a very unfortunate injury ruined his time here - Cannot be called a bad signing

Lee Croft - On a free transfer, but decent wages, an odd one and one of the few truly bad signings, most were quite happy with him signing when he did though - A bad signing

Lee Hendrie - Came as part of an exchange for Stewart, I get the feeling that it was more to do with getting rid of Stewart than signing him, still... - A bad, but inexpensive signing

Russell Anderson - Was a good solid player for us, although injury plagued his time here, still... - A good player for us, including him on the list shows how desperate you are for examples

David Martin - Came cheap, but didn't fit in - A bad, but cheap signing

Chris Maguire - Came with some promise, never fit in, and ultimately sold for a decent price all things considered - A bad signing, but one with minimal loss to the side

Nathan Tyson - Despite rumours I serious doubt he's on that much. He had an unfortunately injury plagued season last year, but he's bagged what... 5 this year, and some key goals at that - A relatively good signing, another sign of you scraping the barrel

Tomasz Cywka - Came for free, and probably quite a low wage, and was very good at first. Sadly it didn't work out in the end - A good signing initially but tailed off, all things considered, not a bad signing

Tom Naylor - Came cheap and was great for a spell at rightback last year, still could have a future here - Not a bad signing

Pringle and the rest - You know you're struggling for examples when you need to refer to freebies and youth players to justify your point of view - More scraping the barrel, if you're not careful you'll be picking splinters out of your fingers for weeks

So yeah, long story short, if after what... after 8 transfer windows that's "all you can think of", a bunch of cheap players and freebies, some of which were "poor" because of unfortunate injuries, and others because they were young or development players who just didn't work out, then we're lightyears past where we were 5 years ago. Of course, you also mentioned so players who weren't even poor (like say... Russell Anderson). I still remember the signings of Dickinson (~£750k), Ellington (huge loan fee and wages if what I heard was true), Claude Davis (I don't even want to think about it), Robert Earnshaw... I'll be in the foetal position if I keep thinking about the money wasted in that era now...

[Guest]

How many managers can you name with a signing success rate of over 75%.

Then try and think of one working in the lower-mid budget range.

What's that got to do with anything I posted, I'm not having a dig at clough, I'm not knocking his transfer record, I'm just saying its not perfect.

U may think he has done an amazing job, that's fair enough, but I commented that his bad signings cost us money, if they didn't I retract that statement, I thought I heard we were over budget on wages, once again if people like croft and Tyson aren't contributing to this, I take it back.

In answer to your question is it, Dari o'gradi, Ian holloway, dougie freeman, jackett, Chris Powell, Keith hill ?

[Albert]

I really can't be bothered going through the records of Gradi, Holloway, Freeman, Jackett and Powell, but I assure, by dollar spent, I seriously doubt they are doing better than Clough's record, especially considering money spent.

Also, "o'gradi"?

I will say this though, David Carney!

[Guest]

Chris Porter - Did very well at first before a very unfortunate injury ruined his time here - Cannot be called a bad signing

Lee Croft - On a free transfer, but decent wages, an odd one and one of the few truly bad signings, most were quite happy with him signing when he did though - A bad signing

Lee Hendrie - Came as part of an exchange for Stewart, I get the feeling that it was more to do with getting rid of Stewart than signing him, still... - A bad, but inexpensive signing

Russell Anderson - Was a good solid player for us, although injury plagued his time here, still... - A good player for us, including him on the list shows how desperate you are for examples

David Martin - Came cheap, but didn't fit in - A bad, but cheap signing

Chris Maguire - Came with some promise, never fit in, and ultimately sold for a decent price all things considered - A bad signing, but one with minimal loss to the side

Nathan Tyson - Despite rumours I serious doubt he's on that much. He had an unfortunately injury plagued season last year, but he's bagged what... 5 this year, and some key goals at that - A relatively good signing, another sign of you scraping the barrel

Tomasz Cywka - Came for free, and probably quite a low wage, and was very good at first. Sadly it didn't work out in the end - A good signing initially but tailed off, all things considered, not a bad signing

Tom Naylor - Came cheap and was great for a spell at rightback last year, still could have a future here - Not a bad signing

Pringle and the rest - You know you're struggling for examples when you need to refer to freebies and youth players to justify your point of view - More scraping the barrel, if you're not careful you'll be picking splinters out of your fingers for weeks

So yeah, long story short, if after what... after 8 transfer windows that's "all you can think of", a bunch of cheap players and freebies, some of which were "poor" because of unfortunate injuries, and others because they were young or development players who just didn't work out, then we're lightyears past where we were 5 years ago. Of course, you also mentioned so players who weren't even poor (like say... Russell Anderson). I still remember the signings of Dickinson (~£750k), Ellington (huge loan fee and wages if what I heard was true), Claude Davis (I don't even want to think about it), Robert Earnshaw... I'll be in the foetal position if I keep thinking about the money wasted in that era now...

Fair enough Albert, I gave you examples, sorry they were cheap or inexpensive, your right his transfer record is nigh on perfect and all the above have improved the club grealty and have now go onto better things. Just for the record, the players that I mentioned left the club with an average of around 23 games played each, but Ill remember next time to only look at players that were signed and have been successful :-)

[Guest]

I really can't be bothered going through the records of Gradi, Holloway, Freeman, Jackett and Powell, but I assure, by dollar spent, I seriously doubt they are doing better than Clough's record, especially considering money spent.

Also, "o'gradi"?

I will say this though, David Carney!

Did I miss the post where it said compare it to Clough ?

I answered a question with what I thought I was the right answer, I also have only quoted that NC has made some signings that have cost the club money, I didnt say he wasnt better or worse than any other manager, Im not quite sure what you want me to say, Nigel is a master in the transfer market and made millions for the club ? Every player he has brought in has been a success ? Honestly Im not quite sure what you are trying to get me to say, you even quoted yourself that he had made some bad buys ?

[Duracell]

Fair enough Albert, I gave you examples, sorry they were cheap or inexpensive, your right his transfer record is nigh on perfect and all the above have improved the club grealty and have now go onto better things. Just for the record, the players that I mentioned left the club with an average of around 23 games played each, but Ill remember next time to only look at players that were signed and have been successful :-)

Think of all the players that Sir Alex Ferguson has signed over the years around the 18-24 bracket that have turned out to be donkey manure. Eric Djemba-Djemba, anyone?

No one can doubt manager make bad signings, they all do it. Even the best. Even Clough Snr made some howlers torwards the end of his career which Nigel will have some difficulty matching.

Clough's not got many blots and his copybook. He's not infallible, but generally, he's done ok. If we were no better than when we started off, having had a negative net spend and some of our flops being £1m+, then you really do ask questions. Paul Jewell ticks all three boxes!

Most of those bad signings, like Pringle, weren't even gambles - seemed to me to be "why not?" signings really, bit wierd but there you go.

Clough's spent serious money on three players - Barker, Keogh, and now Sammon. I think Barker and Keogh have showed they're worth what we paid for them, but Sammon remains to be seen. That's what he'll be judged on. No one remembers the Ben Pringles and the David Martins.

[Albert]

Fair enough Albert, I gave you examples, sorry they were cheap or inexpensive, your right his transfer record is nigh on perfect and all the above have improved the club grealty and have now go onto better things. Just for the record, the players that I mentioned left the club with an average of around 23 games played each, but Ill remember next time to only look at players that were signed and have been successful :-)

23 games played each eh?

Chris Porter - 44 games - Injury plagued, again, are you blaming this on the club?

Lee Croft - 27 games - A genuinely poor signing, but most thought he was a good signing, these things happen

Lee Hendrie - 9 games - On the downslope of his career, came as part of the Stewart deal, I really don't see the issue

Russell Anderson - 34 games - He was a good player when he wasn't injured, how on Earth did he make it onto your list?

David Martin - 2 games - Didn't fit in, was cheap, oh well

Chris Maguire - 7 games - A bad signing, but again, young and cheap, and we got most of the money back

Nathan Tyson - 36 games - Another signing who hasn't been bad, this season he's been somewhat of a supersup in fact

Tomasz Cywka - 39 games - He started well but lost his way, it happens with young players, he came for free though

Tom Naylor - 8 games - Still young, did well last season, could still prove a good signing

Hmmm... About right for the average, the median is closer to 30 though. The value is skewed quite dramatically, and with 2 still at the club and likely to remain as such that value will climb.

So, do you want to know my point? I thought it was obvious. Clough has done his job on the transfer market, with a limited budget and a negligible number of poor signings. Of the list you presented, only Croft, Hendrie, Martin and Maguire really qualify as "poor", with others certainly having merits or mitigating factors beyond scouting and decision making (for example, Chris Porter and his injury woes). What few signings have failed have cost the club little to nothing, and the costs have in some cases been made up (Maguire and Martin), whilst Croft and Hendrie cost wages, which I don't doubt were a bit, but ultimately, when compared to some of what we've been through in the past is certainly light years better. If I were offered the results of the dealings Clough has done when he arrived, I'd have taken it and run laughing, because my word, compared to Jewell and Billy's effort he's been near magical. Perfect is probably the wrong word, but when you need to include useful players who have done a decent job for the club like Anderson on your list of "poor signings" that have "cost the club", it should be obvious you're struggling for examples.

[Albert]

What big signings have we made with Clough... Barker, Shackell, Keogh and Sammon. Barker has had trouble with injuries, but he's class. Shackell was sold for more than we got him for. Keogh has been a standout and Sammon is now finding his feet and offers more than just goals to the team. Overall, for a record with the "big" (oh my, big signings at a ~£1 mil a pop... who'd have thought) signings, he's not got a blotch. Again, when people need to mention Russell to pad a list, you know he's done well.

[Guest]

What big signings have we made with Clough... Barker, Shackell, Keogh and Sammon. Barker has had trouble with injuries, but he's class. Shackell was sold for more than we got him for. Keogh has been a standout and Sammon is now finding his feet and offers more than just goals to the team. Overall, for a record with the "big" (oh my, big signings at a ~£1 mil a pop... who'd have thought) signings, he's not got a blotch. Again, when people need to mention Russell to pad a list, you know he's done well.

Just as a matter if interest Albert, given you say I'm scraping the barrel, how many perm signings has NC made?

And also when did I mention big signings?

Forgive me if I'm wrong I thought you said he had a pretty much perfect record?

And where did I compare him to any other manager?

And it's amazing that players like keough and sammon, which I'm not agreeing or disagreeing have been stand out after half a season, and yet we are still in the same league pos as we were last year.

IMO people like Anderson who arrived with an injury prone career, was a poor signing based on the no of games played.

[Albert]

Just as a matter if interest Albert, given you say I'm scraping the barrel, how many perm signings has NC made?

And also when did I mention big signings?

Forgive me if I'm wrong I thought you said he had a pretty much perfect record?

And where did I compare him to any other manager?

And it's amazing that players like keough and sammon, which I'm not agreeing or disagreeing have been stand out after half a season, and yet we are still in the same league pos as we were last year.

IMO people like Anderson who arrived with an injury prone career, was a poor signing based on the no of games played.

The second post was not in response to you.

Now, first of all, we are not in the same position as last year, there have been clear improvements, but I'll touch on this in a more complete post in early January. I could go over it now, but it'll be a wall of text that I don't feel like writing right now and you probably won't bother reading, so I'll leave that for the midway point of the season.

Also, Anderson came in as cover at the time, and went on to make 34 appearances in 15 months. Not too bad in truth, especially as he didn't come in to be first choice. He performed well when needed and most certainly did a job. Yes, he had a poor record, but we certainly got the best out of him despite that. Sadly injury eventually led to him leaving, but as you say, he had a history of injuries, but he most certainly did his role and certainly wasn't a bad signing. As for number of games played, 34 in 15 months is ~2.3 a month, for a player who didn't come in to be first choice. Compare this to Commons, who made what... 80 in 30 months for a key player? That's only ~2.7 odd. That's only rough though, I could do the proper calculation, but it wouldn't be much different. So yeah, was Commons a bad signing based on appearances? A key player and barely more appearances per month than Anderson?

So want to hear about all the players though... give me a moment:

[blackNwhites]

Why hasn't Brayfords name been mentioned? Adam Legzdins, Frank Fielding, Jake Buxton, Gareth Roberts, Paul Coutts, Bill Bryson, Jamie Ward, Theo Robinson.

Signed for a pittance.

[Albert]

For this, I've got to do some systematic counting to make this easier to digest, because there are a lot of players in the list now. There will be 3 scores given to players, the first is their role at the club:

A - Big signing, so of the order of £1 mil

B - Medium fee player, so the range of £300k upto Cat A players

C - Cheap fee players, so players of proper fees, but less than Cat B

D - Nominal fees players, basically free transfers, but still a fee (for example, Gojkaj)

A* - Top end free transfers, so free transfers on high wages (Croft, Tyson apparently etc.)

B* - Medium free transfers, so first team free transfers on decent wages, but unlikely to be on large wages

C* - Cheap frees (think players like Buxton)

D* - Development squad frees (like Pringle)

L - A loanee of any type

The second is their performance at the club:

1 - Key contributor at the club

2 - First team player over a decent amount of time, while fit of course

3 - In and out of the squad

4 - Out of the squad, or never cemented a place

5 - Never sees first team action

N/A - Injury prevents a proper judgement, or other reasons for non appearance

The third is how they left:

T+ - They left for a fee considerably greater than paid

T - They left for a fee around that they arrived for (approximate, so Moxey and Maguire fall into this category, despite Moxey supposed being sold for a bit more than he arrived for and Maguire leaving for a bit less)

T- - They left for a fee considerably less than they arrived for

F - They left for free or released before the end of their contract

L - A loanee of any type

SH - Still here, they are still at the club

Also note, judgements will be made over their entire career, not their final season, so for example, Cywka would be a 2 as he was in the first team squad for his first season at the club while fit before falling out of favour and leaving.

2008/09, January:

Chris Porter - B, N/A, F

Seb Hines - L, 5, L

John Eustace - L, 2, L

Barry Bannan - L, 2, L

2009/10, Summer:

Lee Croft, A*, 4, SH - Note, he'll leave on a free at the end of his contract

Dean Moxey - B, 2, T

Jake Buxton - C*, 2, SH

Ben Pringle - D*, 4, F

Shaun Barker - A, 1, SH

Saul Deeney - C*, 4, SH

Medi Abalima - D, 5, F

Lee Hendrie - B*, 4, F - Note, he actually came as a part of an exchange, but I've put him here as a free

Jake Livermore - L, 3, L

Paul Dickov - L, 2, L - I feel like I'm being unfair putting him at 2 in truth

James Vaughan - L, N/A, L

Fredrik Stoor - L, 2, L

Bryan Hughes - L, 4, L

DJ Campbell - L, 2, L

2009/10, January:

Russell Anderson - B*, 2, F

Lee Johnson - L, 2, L

Nicky Hunt - L, 2, L

Javan Vidal - L, 5, L

Michael Tonge - L, 1, L

David Martin - L, 3, L

Gilles Sunu - L, 4, L

Dave Martin - L, 3, L - The goalkeeper, not the winger

Tomasz Cywka - L, 2, L

2010/11, Summer:

John Brayford - B, 1, SH

James Bailey - B, 2, SH

Dave Martin - C, 4, T

Gareth Roberts - B*, 2, SH

Tomasz Cywka - B*, 2, F

Conor Doyle - D*, 3, SH

Alberto Bueno - L, 2, L - Some would say 1, but he fell off a lot in winter

Shefki Kuqi - L, 2, L - You could argue for 1, but...

Ryan Noble - L, N/A, L

Luke Moore - L, 2, L

Frank Fielding - L, 1, L

2010/11, January:

Ben Davies - B, 3, SH - A 3 is very harsh, but he has been in and out of the team more than been a first team regular

Michael Boulding - ???? uhh... D*, 5, F - I'm not even sure what he was here for

Daniel Ayala - L, 2, L

Jamie Ward - L, 1, L

Theo Robinson - L, 2, L

Matt Duke - L, N/A, L

Brad Jones - L, 2, L - I can more than forgive his performances after what he went through during that time, still a 2 by its definition though

2011/12, Summer:

Frank Fielding - B, 1, SH

Jamie Ward - B, 1, SH

Craig Bryson - B, 1, SH

Jason Shackell - A, 1, T+

Chris Maguire - B, 4, T

Theo Robinson - B, 2, SH

Adam Legzdins - B, 3, SH - The classification system isn't great for keepers, or in any way really... oh well...

Chris Riggott - D*, N/A, F

Kevin Kilbane - L, 2, L

Tom Naylor - L, N/A, L

Tamas Priskin - L, 2, L

2011/12, January:

Tom Naylor - C, 3, SH

Ryan Noble - L, N/A, L

Tom Carroll - L, 2, L

2012/13, Summer:

Michael Jacobs - B, 2, SH

Paul Coutts - C, 1, SH - I'm not sure how low his fee was, but I'll put him in C for now

Richard Keogh - A, 1, SH

James O'Connor - C, 2, SH

Michael Hoganson - D*, 5, SH

Valentin Gojkaj - D, 5, SH

Conor Sammon - A, 1, SH

Kieron Freeman - C, 3, SH

So yeah... players right?

A: 4 in total with an average of 1 - for the one sale it has been T+

B: 12 in total, one as N/A, with an average of 2 - 2 Ts, 1 F and 9 SH

C: 5 in total with an average of 2.2 - 1 T and 4 SH

D: 2 in total with an average of 5 - 1 F and 1 SH - Note this includes Medi Abalima and Valentin Gojkaj, not really judge-able

A*: 1 in total with an average of 4 - 1 SH - Thanks Croft

B*: 4 in total with an average of 2.5 - 3 F and 1 SH

C*: 2 in total with an average of 3 - 2 SH

D*: 4 in total, one as N/A, with an average of 4.3 - 2 F and 2 SH

L: 31 in total, 4 as N/A, with an average of 2.4 - They were all loans

Long story short, I think that rating system is extremely pointless, but it was quicker to type than my usual wall of text... Might show something... Basically just shoehorning numbers into an opinion piece though, not my finest moment.

As a list of players though, there are all the players. Ignoring the loans, we've had the following flops who weren't development squad players or youth players:

Lee Croft

Dave Martin

Chris Maguire

Lee Hendrie

Additionally there is the following players who usually get mentioned:

Chris Porter - Injury woes

Saul Deeney - Reserve keeper

Ben Pringle - Development player

Conor Doyle - Youth/ Development player

It really should have just put the list of all the signings, then this list... oh well...

[BondJovi]

You could look at it simply. If Clough made only terrible signings...we would have been relegated. If he only made wonder signings we would be drinking from the chalice of prem footy. As it is, we are mid table champ side.... I think he has done just fine when splashing the cash.

[Albert]

You could look at it simply. If Clough made only terrible signings...we would have been relegated. If he only made wonder signings we would be drinking from the chalice of prem footy. As it is, we are mid table champ side.... I think he has done just fine when splashing the cash.

...uh... no...

We were never one "wonder signing" from promotion, nor have we been one "terrible signing" from relegation. That's not "looking at it simply", that's a false dichotomy.

[cheron85]

Albert - I can't be bothered to read that whole post, but since I agree with you on this I'm assuming it's all gravy...

Leeds Rams - You've very much used the wrong phrase there... "Hit and Miss" would suggest a very patchy record...

Nigel's transfer record is far from perfect, but his overall tactic is great... Only spend decent money when you know the product is exactly what you want, but when something's free/cheap you can take a risk on it...

[Albert]

Albert - I can't be bothered to read that whole post, but since I agree with you on this I'm assuming it's all gravy...

Leeds Rams - You've very much used the wrong phrase there... "Hit and Miss" would suggest a very patchy record...

Nigel's transfer record is far from perfect, but his overall tactic is great... Only spend decent money when you know the product is exactly what you want, but when something's free/cheap you can take a risk on it...

I like this way of putting it. More neutral than mine too.

Also, don't worry, I wouldn't read my post either.

[cheron85]

I like this way of putting it. More neutral than mine too.

Also, don't worry, I wouldn't read my post either.

It was long... and I'm not quite bored enough at work today to read something that long...

[BondJovi]

...uh... no...

We were never one "wonder signing" from promotion, nor have we been one "terrible signing" from relegation. That's not "looking at it simply", that's a false dichotomy.

I never said we were one signing from anything.... Certainly never one signing from financial ruin!

Anyway, I quite like your epic post....

[Albert]

It was long... and I'm not quite bored enough at work today to read something that long...

Well, here's the gist of it incase you're in any way interested:

Big Signings: 4 in total with all being key players for the club - only one has been sold, and for more than we paid

Medium Range signings (~£250k upto the "Big Singings" mark): 12 in total, one who couldn't be rated due to injury, on average these signings were first teamers - Two left for around what we paid, 1 left for free and 9 are still here

Low cost signings: 5 in total and on average they were around the first team (the rating came in just below) - 1 left for around what we paid and 4 are still here

Signings for nomial fees: 2 were signed, neither played a significant role (Abalima and Gojkaj, so far at least)

Top grade frees: 2 were signed, on average they've struggled to hold down a first team place - Both are still with us, one is out on loan

Medium range frees: 4 in total, on average they were between the first team and the bench - 3 have left on frees, on is still here

Cheap frees - 2 in total, average not holding down a first team spot - both are still here

Development squad type frees - 4 in total, one unrated, failed to hold down a place in the squad on average - 2 left on frees, 2 still here

Loans: 31 in total, 4 unrated, overall they averaged between the first team and the bench - As loans they have of course all left

Note: I somehow missed Tyson in my list of players... ooops...

...still not exactly short.