Views on NC's signings as DCFC manager

[davenportram]

My honest 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> view of some if Cloughs signings.

Fielding - crap he has made several mistakes unforgivable

Ledzgins - crap he has made several mistakes

Cywka - crap he ran into dead ends and cost loads

Theo - crap scores goals but does duck all else

Porter - crap Clough should have seen his injuries coming

Maguire - crap decision to sell. Scores every game, never have it away and tracked back for the team.

Bryson - crap just runs never tackles or daws defenders creating space for others

Bailey - crap no more than a stop gap to fill space in position we needed a stop gap. Why buy him?

[Guest]

Kenny Jackett bought Theo for £300k and sold to him to us for £150k. He is now worth three times that.So, therefore NC is better than Jackett in the transfer market. Just extending your thinking Gc.

Theo cost was believed to be 300k to us as well.

[sage]

not according to the gospel of wiki

[sage]

not according to the gospel of wiki

[Bris Vegas]

In relation to Millwall's loans, ie Woods. I'm merely pointing out that along with Palace they're this seasons surprise package, there's a couple every season who buck the opinions pre season predictions by so called experts. (Weren't we, the great and fabulous Derby County tipped to go down last season???) This has been underpinned by Woods' very good form, despite a good reputation who would've predicted he'd have such a big impact. I stand by my argument that The Lion's form will dip if they don't secure an extention to his loan deal...

Yes Nigel has used the loan market poorly in the past which is more than likely the reason why he's avoided it like the plague this season. I'd always rather see perminent signings compared to loans unless you're able to bring in a very talented player, on good terms and who you couldn't normally hope of signing. Bueno being a prime example. A couple of seasons ago everyone was up in arms because we had to use the loan market so much, now you're moaning that he isn't using it enough... Are you never happy??

Hang on, I've just remembered who I'm replying to, of course you're not happy...

Why are Millwall a suprise package?

The first season they finished 9th on 67 points (av. 1.46).. Then they finished 16th on 57 points (av. 1.24).. And now they're 7th on 33 points (av 1.57).. I wouldn't say they're a suprise at all, if anything last season was an anomoly for Milwall..

Also I'm not maoning that we're not using it.. I'm saying NC has been poor in it.. You can find some very good loans that can help shoot a team up the table, obviously we'd all prefer to have our own players but at least with loans (especially those that have a transfer option) they can be very good deals.. Many good NPC players are bought through original loans..

What do you make of Watford? Finished higher than us the last 2 seasons, higher than us in the table now.. I don't think they've spent any more than we have over the past few years..

[Alph]

Apparently wiki has something different?

[Alph]

What do you make of Watford? Finished higher than us the last 2 seasons, higher than us in the table now.. I don't think they've spent any more than we have over the past few years..

Claim - Finished higher than us the last 2 seasons, higher than us in the table now.. I don't think they've spent any more than we have over the past few years..

Source? Source? SOURCE!!?

Well, Nigel is great in the transfer market so Dyche(?) must of been legendary!!!

Unless of course...... Both are just ordinary and sign some that improve, some that don't and some that simply fit in like every othe fookin manager!!

No, I'm being ridiculous. Signing cheap poor players doesn't even count as a transfer.

[ramsbottom]

Why are Millwall a suprise package?

The first season they finished 9th on 67 points (av. 1.46).. Then they finished 16th on 57 points (av. 1.24).. And now they're 7th on 33 points (av 1.57).. I wouldn't say they're a suprise at all, if anything last season was an anomoly for Milwall..

Also I'm not maoning that we're not using it.. I'm saying NC has been poor in it.. You can find some very good loans that can help shoot a team up the table, obviously we'd all prefer to have our own players but at least with loans (especially those that have a transfer option) they can be very good deals.. Many good NPC players are bought through original loans..

What do you make of Watford? Finished higher than us the last 2 seasons, higher than us in the table now.. I don't think they've spent any more than we have over the past few years..

But what if Millwall finish 16th, wouldn't that make the 9th place finish an anomaly??? I don't think many people would say Millwall if you asked for an established NPC te who should be there or thereabouts come the end of the season. As for Watford they're academy has been producing more consistently than ours for some time.

I agree the loan market can be used to your advantage but I'm sure a more learned individual than you or I namely Nigel Clough is preferring to use players he can BUY which is the whole point of this thread unless the name's changed to "General Nigel Nashing"...

[Bris Vegas]

But what if Millwall finish 16th, wouldn't that make the 9th place finish an anomaly??? I don't think many people would say Millwall if you asked for an established NPC te who should be there or thereabouts come the end of the season. As for Watford they're academy has been producing more consistently than ours for some time.

I agree the loan market can be used to your advantage but I'm sure a more learned individual than you or I namely Nigel Clough is preferring to use players he can BUY which is the whole point of this thread unless the name's changed to "General Nigel Nashing"...

I guess we'll have to wait until the end of the season to see if Millwalls true form is that of 2011 rather than 2010 and 2012..

What is an established NPC side? Does that word even exist? You'd struggle to find any team that's been the the NPC for longer than 6 seasons.. You'd struggle to find any that's been in the top 8 4 years running or the bottom 8 4 years running.. The closest you'd find is Cardiff I guess but they really should have been promoted by now they've had enough opportunities.. (although this year I think they'll finally go up)

I think on the whole Cardiff and Ipswich are the only 2 teams that's been in the NPC for 7 seasons running or more.. Or maybe Barnsley too I can't remember when they got promoted..

As for Watford, perhaps they used players from the academy.. But then again so have Derby and NC.. I'm sure everyone would agree that we'd be a worser team without Will Hughes.. Is that to NCs credit that he's in the team or is that just a lucky break for him?

[needles]

Now, now, all these toys will have to be put back in the box before bedtime. 'http://www.dcfcfans.co.uk/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Clough's done brilliantly so far, and this season I've enjoyed watching the team more than I have in years, since Burley probably, except this time we're young and getting better and not built on sand financially.

Millwall are an interesting comparison because they too have had a manager for a long time and are reaping the rewards. I'd say we have the better squad though (younger, less loans).

Watford have signed over a dozen players on loan with the link with Udinese(?) skewing their squad so wildly that you can't compare them with us in development terms.

[uttoxram75]

Clough's net spend is negligible. £1m over 8 transfer windows? Not sure its much more than that. Halved the wage bill?

And now we have a better team. squad and academy than when he took over.

so far, so good.

[Albert]

I think the reason he's comparing them is that since Millwall joined the league (in 2010) they accumulated more points on average than DCFC.. Doing that by spending less and having a similar wage budget.. They also lost a 20 goal a season striker in Steve Morrison..

I don't know how anyone can say NC has done a better job than Jackett as he hasn't.. But I'm not sure this was the original arguement anyway? People say that Millwall are only good because of their loans? Well at least they can use the loan market to improve them, as they don't have the luxury of spending $1mill plus every season on a new defender or striker.. NC has used the loan market poorly over the past few years..

I'm not sure how comparing Nigel's performance, who has been reducing the wage bill whilst improving the squad of a team that came down from the Premier League in tatters with a huge wage bill, only to blow more money on more rubbish before he arrived, to a manager who has been managing a club that has come up is exactly fair.

There is a big difference between reducing a wage bill and spending little and simply spending little.

After reading all the b0llocks on this thread, this sums up Niges signings better than anything else I have read!!!

Now lets talk about his loan signings - w&nk!!!

This thread has made me into a wrist slasher now......

4 bad signings in 34, that's a pretty damn good record by anyone's standards.

The loans are another story, but that's largely because they've been used to over gaps rather than improve the team as a whole generally. That's certainly more of a case of a bit of hit and miss, but overall they are still decent on average.

Rather than just waffling though, here's the actual list of loans:

January 2008/09:

Seb Hines - Not sure if he even played, came in to cover in defense during injury crisis - Cover Loan

John Eustace - Came in, did a job, not too many fans liked him though - Average Loan

Barry Bannan - Came in and did well, many supporters commented at the time that they wanted him back on loan for 2009/10 and thought he'd be a Premier League quality player in no time, and he's certainly not doing too bad these days - Good Loan

2009/10, Summer:

Jake Livermore - Came in for half I season if I recall, wasn't great, but did a job - Poor Loan

Paul Dickov - Triggered one of the most negative reactions I've ever seen from a loan, but did very well overall, with many wanting him to join permanently - Good Loan

James Vaughan - Came in, got injured - Injured Loan

Fredrik Stoor - Came in, did a job, initially a few were impressed, but that fell off - Average Loan

Bryan Hughes - Came in for cover, barely played - Cover loan

DJ Campbell - Came in, scored a few goals - Good Loan

2009/10, January:

Lee Johnson - Came in, did a job and was quite good, many wanting to bring him in permanently - Good Loan

Nicky Hunt - Did a job and was initially quite impressive, many initially wanting him to stay on, but his form ultimately dipped quite badly - Average loan

Javan Vidal - Came in, didn't really make it into the team, then left - Poor Loan

Michael Tonge - Was impressive at times on loan which led to many suggesting we sign him permanently for a good 2-3 transfer windows afterwards - Good loan

Dave Martin - Signed with a view to a permanent deal, wasn't that great even then - Poor loan to Poor Transfer

Gilles Sunu - Never really got into the team, wasn't that great when he did play - Poor loan

David Martin - Was signed due to injuries, did a job - Cover Loan

Tomasz Cywka - Was impressive on loan and signed permanently - Good loan

2010/11, Summer:

Alberto Bueno - Started very well, his form dipped as winter arrived though, still many wanted him back - Good loan

Shefki Kuqi - Did a job when we needed it, some even crediting our purple patch partly to his play in the front third bringing others into play, many wanted to keep him as well - Good loan

Ryan Noble - Got injured- Injured Loan

Luke Moore - Did a job, not as well as Kuqi though, I wasn't impressed overall, but oh well - Average loan

Frank Fielding - Was impressive on loan, leading to many wanting him to come back - Good loan

2010/11, January:

Daniel Ayala - Was impressive and many wanted him back - Good Loan

Jamie Ward - Was a standout late that season and ultimately we signed him in the off season - Good Loan

Theo Robinson - Had lots of pace but little end product, many were confused when he signed permanently - Average Loan

Matt Duke - Came in as cover - Cover Loan

Brad Jones - He came in as cover and many weren't impressed by him, I can more than forgive his performances though after what he went through during that time - Cover Loan

2011/12, Summer:

Kevin Kilbane - Started okay, fell off - Poor Loan

Tom Naylor - Came in with a view to permanent deal - Future transfer Loan

Tamas Priskin - Needed someone at the time, he did a job, scoring one in a 3-1 loss to West Ham, he didn't really do that well overall though - Poor Loan

2011/12, January:

Ryan Noble - We signed him again for some reason... - Injured Loan

Tom Carroll - Not many liked him, and ultimately he was dropped - Poor Loan

So, bit hit and miss for sure, but hardly a terrible record on the loan market.

[Albert]

Clough's net spend is negligible. £1m over 8 transfer windows? Not sure its much more than that. Halved the wage bill?

And now we have a better team. squad and academy than when he took over.

so far, so good.

We don't have any idea what the net spend is, nor is it a fair measure.

What do you define as a net spend? Just transfer fees, how does that make any fair indication of the situation? Wages, Agents Fee, etc make up a huge amount of the money paid from transfers and Nigel has had to slash a wage bill.

If a manager keeps a squad exactly as it was for a season, no increased wages, no players in or out, this would constitute a "0 net spend" correct?

What about a manager who signs a new player on large wages but no transfer fees, this would be a positive net spend would it not?

What if a manager halved a wage bill over the course of a few seasons, if the above two are a 0 net spend and a positive net spend, wouldn't this not considering anything else be quite a considerable negative net spend?

Then take into account that we don't know any of the exact figures, not even the transfer fees. Long story short all we know is that we've slashed the wage bill and spend a very limited amount of money, going anything beyond that is pure guesswork at this point.

[Albert]

Claim - Finished higher than us the last 2 seasons, higher than us in the table now.. I don't think they've spent any more than we have over the past few years..

Source? Source? SOURCE!!?

Well, Nigel is great in the transfer market so Dyche(?) must of been legendary!!!

Unless of course...... Both are just ordinary and sign some that improve, some that don't and some that simply fit in like every othe fookin manager!!

No, I'm being ridiculous. Signing cheap poor players doesn't even count as a transfer.

Context is everything, and to list Pringle as a poor signing is basically equivalent to listing every kid to come through our academy as well. If that point wasn't clear from previous posts, I'd suggest rereading them. Not every player signed is going straight into the first team, and I'd assume anyone who's spent a lifetime watching the sport would have realised that.

[Bris Vegas]

I'm not sure how comparing Nigel's performance, who has been reducing the wage bill whilst improving the squad of a team that came down from the Premier League in tatters with a huge wage bill, only to blow more money on more rubbish before he arrived, to a manager who has been managing a club that has come up is exactly fair.

There is a big difference between reducing a wage bill and spending little and simply spending little.

4 bad signings in 34, that's a pretty damn good record by anyone's standards.

Erm.. Who exactly can you compare him to then?

And as for your 4 signings in 34.. You can easily reverse that and say only 4 or 5 good signings in 34 which isn't exactly what I call 'a damn good record'

His record overall is average.. Some good, some bad, some ugly..

[mcsilks]

Think back to where we were when Clough took over to where we are now.

We have a good, young and hungry squad that he has built up for very little.

That is progress.

While we may not set the world alight, Clough should be commended for his work in the transfer market.

I look at the playing style and the desire and wheras 3-4 years ago it was embaraccing to be a Derby fan, I am now proud to support this team once more.

[Albert]

Erm.. Who exactly can you compare him to then?

And as for your 4 signings in 34.. You can easily reverse that and say only 4 or 5 good signings in 34 which isn't exactly what I call 'a damn good record'

His record overall is average.. Some good, some bad, some ugly..

Good signings:

Jamie Ward

Frank Fielding

Shaun Barker

Jason Shackell

John Brayford

Gareth Roberts

Craig Bryson

Theo Robinson

Adam Legzdins

Jake Buxton

On top of that almost certainly:

Richard Keogh

Paul Coutts

Michael Jacobs

Conor Sammon

So that's 10-14 depending on how the new guys go long term, how on Earth is that "4-5"?

You want to find someone to compare him to? Find a club that's come down, dead last with record low points, had a manager sign 16 players, spending much of the money that could be used to rebuild on a lot of rubbish (and a small amount of fairly decent players), then be asked to rebuild from there, midway through a season. If you can't find someone in a comparable situation, maybe you should actual use some logic in the situation rather than a straight comparison to any random manager.

[Bris Vegas]

Good signings:

Jamie Ward

Frank Fielding

Shaun Barker

Jason Shackell

John Brayford

Gareth Roberts

Craig Bryson

Theo Robinson

Adam Legzdins

Jake Buxton

Jamie Ward - good signing

Frank Fielding - average signing.. You can pick up goalkeepers for his ability for cheaper.. Take Lego for example

Shaun Barker - how is he a good signing? An injury prone midtable NPC defender for $1mill plus.. Poor business

Jason Shackell - We bought him for about as much we sold him.. Did we pay over the odds? Good defender

John Brayford - Good player and IMO NCs best signing

Gareth Roberts - Mr consistant.. Mr average.. Mr 'you can sign any 30 year old for free to do his job'

Craig Bryson - Good signing.. Improving

Theo Robinson - Good signing for his price.. Average NPC striker

Adam Legzdins - Good signing

Jake Buxton - Average signing.. A league one at best defender for free.. We had one of those in our squad before.. Nyatanga.

We're yet to make a 'great' signing though if we hold onto Brayford and sell him for a couple of million he'd be in that catogary.. Let's be fair.. 1 great signing, 5 good signings, lots and lots of average signings and a few poor signings..

Before anyone even mentions Barker, Wesigned Leacock and Darren Moore for a fraction of his price and they both at least completed a season, forming a solid defence and helped get us promoted.. Barker cost around $1mill and is a distinctly average NPC CB whose feckin injury prone.. Blackpool were laughing all the way to the bank with that one, especially as they replaced him with cheaper, better players..

[Mary Hindge]

January 2008/09:

Seb Hines - Not sure if he even played, came in to cover in defense during injury crisis - Cover Loan

John Eustace - Came in, did a job, not too many fans liked him though - Average Loan

Barry Bannan - Came in and did well, many supporters commented at the time that they wanted him back on loan for 2009/10 and thought he'd be a Premier League quality player in no time, and he's certainly not doing too bad these days - Good Loan

Seb Hines? Source? To the best of my limited knowledge Chris Hutchinson brought him in on loan?

If you can get something like this wrong how do we know that all your graphs and essays are correct as well?

[Albert]

Jamie Ward - good signing

Frank Fielding - average signing.. You can pick up goalkeepers for his ability for cheaper.. Take Lego for example

Shaun Barker - how is he a good signing? An injury prone midtable NPC defender for $1mill plus.. Poor business

Jason Shackell - We bought him for about as much we sold him.. Did we pay over the odds? Good defender

John Brayford - Good player and IMO NCs best signing

Gareth Roberts - Mr consistant.. Mr average.. Mr 'you can sign any 30 year old for free to do his job'

Craig Bryson - Good signing.. Improving

Theo Robinson - Good signing for his price.. Average NPC striker

Adam Legzdins - Good signing

Jake Buxton - Average signing.. A league one at best defender for free.. We had one of those in our squad before.. Nyatanga.

We're yet to make a 'great' signing though if we hold onto Brayford and sell him for a couple of million he'd be in that catogary.. Let's be fair.. 1 great signing, 5 good signings, lots and lots of average signings and a few poor signings..

Before anyone even mentions Barker, Wesigned Leacock and Darren Moore for a fraction of his price and they both at least completed a season, forming a solid defence and helped get us promoted.. Barker cost around $1mill and is a distinctly average NPC CB whose feckin injury prone.. Blackpool were laughing all the way to the bank with that one, especially as they replaced him with cheaper, better players..

Are you seriously saying that Fielding isn't a good keeper now. A keeper his age, of his international experience and with the potential he has for what we got... He was an absolute steal at that price, and whilst Legzdins is in form, Fielding is still the better keeper overall. On form Fielding is one of our best assets.

Shaun didn't have injury problems before he signed, and he was a reveleation his first season. He also performed admirably even with an injury during the disaster that was the latter half of his second season. He certainly hasn't looked the same since the injuries, but you can't say that £1 mil (£s by the way, not $) is a bad price since he's had injury trouble after we signed him. What, should the club get the crystal ball out before transfers? Even with the injury, he's been better than a lot of defenders who've gone for far more than him.

The media figures around him during his transfer here were £750k rising to £1 mil, when he left it was £1.1 rising to some other figure. There have also been rumours that he went for far more than we heard, but even forgetting that, £1.1 mil is significantly larger than £750k.

I like how you write off Roberts as a good signing, it's as though ever free transfer ever turns out exactly as expected, over to you Lee...

Buxton came for free, on minimal wages and has on many occasions performed beyond most people's expectations. I can't think of a defender who came for cheaper who's performed nearly as well as him.

Now, as for this Leacock Moore thing:

Dean Leacock - £375k - An average defender who the experienced Moore made look better than he was. He was seriously found out in the Premier League and has yet to look even a decent Championship defender since we were promoted.

Darren Moore - £300k rising to £500k - Half a mil at 32, I'd have bloody hoped he was a damn good defender. People forget age far too often in these kinds of discussions, and put bluntly, if I had to choose between £300-500k for 32 year old Moore who averaged only 21 appearances a season over the last 5 years or £900k for 26 year old Shaun Barker who'd only missed about 7 league games in the last 4 seasons before signing (I have no idea if injury lead to any of these missed games, but the largest number he missed in a single season was 3 over those 4 years), I'd almost certainly have gone for Barker. Building for the future and all.

You also say that Blackpool replaced Barker with better? I'd assume you didn't mean that they used the money to sign Adam (the main reason they went up from what I remember). Now, Blackpool conceded the same number of goals the season they went up as the season before (with Barker at the back). Now, considering that they were a better team with Adam in the midfield, you can assume that even with a defence of the same quality, they should have conceded less goals with less pressure on them, but instead they conceded the same amount. This means that they at very best replaced him with players of identical quality. So, who were his replacements, and are they really better? Keep in mind that it is clear that Barker had no injury worries when he arrived at the club, so complaining on that front is complaining that they don't have the power of futuresight.

Seb Hines? Source? To the best of my limited knowledge Chris Hutchinson brought him in on loan?

If you can get something like this wrong how do we know that all your graphs and essays are correct as well?

He was signed on loan the day Nigel was offered the job, and the day before he was appointed manager as it turns out. I remember he was signed after Jewell left, my apologies for listing a player signed the day that Nigel was approached for the job. As I always say, if I have made a mistake I am more than happy to correct it if shown the issue. Thankyou.

I would also point out that on that silly list with scores back on page 2 or 3 (since this was removed from the Hughes thread in transfer talk) that I'm pretty sure I forgot Tyson, but have again, since mentioned this.

How can you trust me if I make minor errors? Everyone will make errors, typos and occasional miss things, it happens. If you can't trust me for making the odd mistake (and I assure you, there are almost certainly more than neither myself or others have picked up on), then I suggest signing out and never returning to another forum again, because I assure you that people make mistakes. If you'd like, I'll error check your posts that I see from now on for you.